WHAT GRADE WOULD YOU ASSIGN TO THIS NOTE ?

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

I thought it might be useful to post some images of TPG (Third-Party Graded) notes in order to familiarize members with the grading standards of the various commercial grading companies.

I've attached a detailed scan of an original note that earned a PMG UNC-64 EPQ classification. However, several pronounced counting creases are clearly visible on this note and I find that a bit disturbing at the UNC-64 level. According to Canadian (Charlton) grading standards this note would probably grade UNC-60 (i.e., 3 demerit points) at best. Any comments?

{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/10/31/PMG_64.jpg}

grade ot AU plus, it may "appear" better to some.

Rick

Looks AU-ish to me.  I see four or five counting flicks. They also look like they might be longer than 2cm as allowed by the Charlton. And could any of those corners be considered "soft"?

It was only a few years ago that four counting folds made a note EF. I have a few very similar looking to this (a lot less interesting though) that I bought from dealers as EF's before the days of online auctions.

But I wouldn't even be that conservative any more.  It's awfully hard on morale to take a note bought as "choice unc" and resell it as EF.     Although it happens to me all too often...

it's a note that did not curculate, and as long as that's not a corner fold I see at the top left, it's MS-60 to me.  What can I say, my grading sucks 

And you need a little help with your spelling too.

With the advent of the three grades of UNC, we assist to the birth of the others grades (not surprisingly) between the "standard grades"...
I'm wondering on what REALLY makes the difference between an UNC-63 and an UNC-64 graded note? Is the grader measured the lenght of each wrinkle and paper nick and found that there were a very small bit shorter on an U-64 than those found on an U-63?? 

I dont like these grades thin-sliced like cooked ham...I find this too arbitrary, and added to much complications on what was simple before.

If nobody can tell what makes the real difference between each of these grades, I don't see the point (other than to make a buck...).

Call it whatever grade you want.  A note of that caliber is going to fetch an MS-60 price or better.  Those counting flicks look small, it's a note that did not curculate, and as long as that's not a corner fold I see at the top left, it's MS-60 to me.  What can I say, my grading sucks 

R_P,
I don't mean to be so stingy about the grading. I think you're totally right that it would fetch an MS-60 price.  And I respect your grading the notes at a market-level rather than a technical-level. I know your grading is at least at par with the most popular dealers: Olmstead, J&M etc...

I'll usually grade notes to sell as EF or AU but price them closer to the AU/Unc to Unc-60 mark, since I know very well that that's simply the market reality.  I'm sure that turns off a lot of potential buyers, and a professional dealer probably can't afford to do that.

But smart collectors understand the difference between market grade and technical grade. I'd much rather sell to eager collectors willing to pay a premium and have them be all the more satisfied rather than to sell to someone just out to get a (false) "deal" relative to the catalogue.

Ottawa: I think it's great that you post these grading-related topics. There are always new collectors who aren't aware of the huge variations in grading opinions. I think it really helps everyone to keep an active discussion going on this topic, as many times as it's been discussed before! 

Difficult to say unless we can see the actual note, I can at least clearly see the three handling creases across the top right quadrant of the portrait. But grade it 64? I think PMG could do better job grading each note the same wheather it came from a run or not. I can overlook the off centeredness. I agree with RP, chances are that this baby will go for the price of a choice Unc.

Aloha mon

Here's another note, totally different from Ottawa's in terms of wear. I'd be very curious to know what forum members think of this one.  My impression is that it looks much better than it really is, but I feel dumbfounded as to what it might be really worth. Clearly it's been processed in some way to improve it's appearance. Click on the pictures to take a closer look. These have a steep price ramp approaching the uncirculated grades. I'm still out on this one, as to whether I got totally ripped off. 

{http://www1.numex.ca:8080/cgi-img/1937_50_HB0371213_face.jpg:http://www1.numex.ca:8080/cgi-bin/preview.pl?i=1937_50_HB0371213_face.jpg&s=500}

{http://www1.numex.ca:8080/cgi-img/1937_50_HB0371213_back.jpg:http://www1.numex.ca:8080/cgi-bin/preview.pl?i=1937_50_HB0371213_back.jpg&s=500}

{http://www1.numex.ca:8080/cgi-img/1937_50_HB0371213_back1.jpg:http://www1.numex.ca:8080/cgi-bin/preview.pl?i=1937_50_HB0371213_back1.jpg&s=500}

(My apologies to the members who've inquired about this note and to whom I've over-represented the grade prior to having more closely examined the note...)

choice EF

The $50 1937 note above exhibits fairly prominent pressed out quarterfolds which are probably more visible on the note itself than in the scans. Also, there's a slight loss of design (due to ironing after washing?) to the right of the central vignette on the back. In addition, the note appears to have been lightly trimmed although the trimming has been well done (the corners are just too "razor" sharp ..... one would expect slight corner rounding on a note that's been folded, washed and pressed). I'd describe it as "EF, pressed", but still a good looking note.

Thanks for the opinions. I'm not used to coming upon such expertly processed notes. My initial positive impression together with wishful thinking made me simply ignore the evidence. In fact, the note looks even less conspicuous in person than under the camera.

But Ottawa is certainly right: Washed/Pressed/Trimmed.  And EF might even be on the generous side. I make out soft 1/4 and 3/4 folds in addition to hard horizontal and hard vertical folds. Better return this if I can. Keep your eyes open: it might find its way back onto some online auction site in a couple weeks.

By the way, this was sold as "AU or Unc"