1935 Bank of Canada $50, BC-13, PMG AU 53 'previously mounted'

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

Getting this back next week from PMG.
Coming back graded a 53 AU with a note 'previously mounted'. No NET grade.
Thoughts?

more detailed pics...

http://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6590/fwyEXw.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/5671/4ovRPG.jpg

Nice note, but anything graded by PMG as AU and lacking the designation of originality is going to be treated with a certain degree of skepticism from collectors.

"Previously mounted," hmm?  Indeed.  Have a look at what this note looked like previously:

"Previously mounted," hmm?  Indeed.  Have a look at what this note looked like previously:

Maybe should have said "Previously stained"   

It is unfortunate when one is unaware of the history of a note ....this is the type of thing that can make a collector very bitter of the hobby if they are not aware of what to look for .... hopefully you did not over pay on this "tampered with" note.

I've had a request to remove this thread.  I decided not to as it would not be in the best interests of potential buyers to bury the unfortunate history of this note.

I've had a request to remove this thread.  I decided not to as it would not be in the best interests of potential buyers to bury the unfortunate history of this note.

To BWJM's post and others, what's so wrong with having a stain removed? The note was not altered but just brought back to its original state.
It was not pressed, no colour added or touched up. Why the big deal?

Taking a look at PMG, the note did not get anyone of the following designations, which they obviously watch for...

Altered Note    
Any note that has been manipulated to create the appearance that it is a different variety or type of note, e.g. fabricated error notes.

Repairs    
Describes an attempt to fix a note by a non-professional, in the opinion of PMG graders. This determination is made by examining the technique of the repair and the materials used.

Restoration    
Restoration describes work to fix a note's flaws performed by a professional, in the opinion of PMG graders. Higher quality materials and more refined techniques are used on notes described as having Restoration than on notes described as having Repairs.

What's the problem? PMG didn't find any.

To BWJM's post and others, what's so wrong with having a stain removed? The note was not altered but just brought back to its original state.
It was not pressed, no colour added or touched up. Why the big deal?

The stain was removed by "someone" and it is a processed note.
According to Charlton's ...a processed note refers to "cleaning" as well as other things.
Therefore the note is NOT original and it has been altered in an attempt to make it look original.
(whether to try to increase its value or deceive one from what it use to be)
I think if you ask any collector the fact that the stain was removed by some process it should be disclosed and leave
it up to a buyer to pay what they feel it is worth....but knowing that it has been cleaned...
This is my opinion yet I am sure many others will agree...
IF I personally bought a note and later found this to be the case I would be really pissed off to say the least

To BWJM's post and others, what's so wrong with having a stain removed? The note was not altered but just brought back to its original state.
It was not pressed, no colour added or touched up. Why the big deal?

The Problem with it is that someone has treated this note with something that would remove the stain(i.e. chemical,soap). Depending on what treated this particular note, the foreign cleaner could start to deteriorate the note over time.

  Any alteration of a banknote to make it look better is not desired by a serious collector. There will be a lot of serious collectors in the hobby that have images saved from harder to get banknotes from all over, and when they come up again they have the original image to compare to.

 There are lots of different modifications that could be done to alter a banknote to as you say (to its original state).  You have probably familiar with "pressed and cleaned", this can be detrimental to a banknote as stated above for cleaning. Pressed will take many folds and get rid of them but the side effect of this also gets rid of the embossing of the note . There is replacing missing pieces, there are even crooked people that split a paper banknote in half and reattach them to make an inverted error note increase the value of a common note to astronomical value. Even the polymer notes we use now can be treated with a light chemical and remove serial numbers, holograms, actually you can remove everything and make it a blank piece of plastic.

 I guess the only thing is do you like your note? If you are happy with it that is great and now you know a bit of history about it.

 Wayne

As this has been mentioned time and time again...."BUY THE NOTE, NOT THE HOLDER"
It is well known that TPG's do make mistakes, and fortunately Brent has a photo of the note prior to its amazing
non processing...that proves this point.

A comparison of the two scans of the note also leads me to believe the once-quite-rounded bottom left corner has been restored and made quite square. Any else notice that?

In hindsight I didn't realize the severity of buying a stained note.
I was assured the stain was removed using the utmost best methods.
It is what it is, what can I do now.

In hindsight I didn't realize the severity of buying a stained note.
I was assured the stain was removed using the utmost best methods.
It is what it is, what can I do now.

What can you do now?...let us know who assured you that the stain would be removed using the upmost best methods
so we don't get taken with this sellers other great notes..
 

Another request has come in to delete not just this thread, but the original poster's entire account and all posts made by them.  Again, request denied.

It is in the best interests of collectors to know about not just this note and its storied history, but the entire practice of cleaning, pressing and otherwise tampering with banknotes for the purpose of improving their appearance, condition, value and/or appear to buyers.  It is well understood by advanced collectors the long-term damage that these practices can do to a note for a quick buck, but novice collectors, perhaps including the original poster, are not as experienced and could be easily misled, intentionally or otherwise.

I'm sure the original poster is embarrassed, ashamed, angry and probably will even suffer a financial loss because of their mistake.  But you know what?  We all have at one point or another, myself included.  It is forums like this one, and indeed threads like this one that serve to educate collectors so that we make fewer mistakes and that the ones we do make are not quite as expensive as perhaps this one might be.

If you want a cover up, go ask some U.S. government official about all the UFOs stored at Area 51.

BWJM's full response to me:

As no personally identifiable information is publicly accessible, and for reasons previously mentioned, request denied.

It is in the best interests of the entire collecting community that the history of this note be available.  You would be well advised to learn from your mistake and take this opportunity to help others not make similar mistakes.  Taking you at your word that you are an innocent victim here, I feel sorry for you.  It was a mistake, and it's going to cost you.  Not because of anything that I or anyone else here has done... no, this is all on you.  You should have educated yourself before spending so much money.  You should have known to avoid a note that has been tampered with like this.  Think of it like buying a car... You get excited about some nice antique car, you're told that the panelling on the left side has been touched up a bit, but what you don't know is that it is after-market replacement parts made in China 50 years after the car stopped being produced.  It's no longer original, and no self-respecting car collector would want to own something like that, or at the very least wouldn't pay close to the kind of money that an original car would command.  Now you're stuck with it.  Do you try and cover up your mistake and pass it off to some other unsuspecting schmuck who doesn't know better, or will you admit your mistake, learn from it, sell it for parts and do your research next time?

I for one will play no role in a cover up like you are asking for.  Sorry.

I guess a wreck of a car has never been restored, using original parts, whether it meant finding them or removing rust from the ones that were, to bring it back to original showroom condition. Nah, that has never happened.

I guess we can all agree to disagree on the subject.
I'll leave it at that.

BWJM's full response to me:

As no personally identifiable information is publicly accessible, and for reasons previously mentioned, request denied.

It is in the best interests of the entire collecting community that the history of this note be available.  You would be well advised to learn from your mistake and take this opportunity to help others not make similar mistakes.  Taking you at your word that you are an innocent victim here, I feel sorry for you.  It was a mistake, and it's going to cost you.  Not because of anything that I or anyone else here has done... no, this is all on you.  You should have educated yourself before spending so much money.  You should have known to avoid a note that has been tampered with like this.  Think of it like buying a car... You get excited about some nice antique car, you're told that the panelling on the left side has been touched up a bit, but what you don't know is that it is after-market replacement parts made in China 50 years after the car stopped being produced.  It's no longer original, and no self-respecting car collector would want to own something like that, or at the very least wouldn't pay close to the kind of money that an original car would command.  Now you're stuck with it.  Do you try and cover up your mistake and pass it off to some other unsuspecting schmuck who doesn't know better, or will you admit your mistake, learn from it, sell it for parts and do your research next time?

I for one will play no role in a cover up like you are asking for.  Sorry.

I guess a wreck of a car has never been restored, using original parts, whether it meant finding them or removing rust from the ones that were, to bring it back to original showroom condition. Nah, that has never happened.

To go with this, your argument makes no sense when you say paneling. My note is still original, so it is like the body of an antique car having dirt removed and brought back to appear original and new. Will that hinder the value or bring it up? Tell me... ?
Like I said, I now see the 'faux pas' of buying a note with a stain removed but I feel to see the evil of it. It has been brought back to like new. It was not pressed and nothing was added. Chemicals (if used) were not bad because not detected, nor was there an odour.
Like I said in my next post, I think we can go around in circles or agree to disagree.

Funny how I have actually had coin and banknote dealers who know of the note as me if I know who did the work LOL.

Funny how I have actually had coin and banknote dealers who know of the note as me if I know who did the work LOL.

Any reputable dealer would only want to know the person who cleaned the note so they knew who to stay away from...

Any reputable dealer would only want to know the person who cleaned the note so they knew who to stay away from...

Sure, you believe that.
The one that reached out to me is pretty reputable and he asked if a tear can be fixed.

Lets see how honest you can be since you believe you did nothing wrong and cleaning is ok since it is now in your eyes, "Original"

The note was originally a BCS EF 40 so you said
Now it is a PMG AU
When you originally bought the bill was it stained and did someone cleaned it for you before you paid for it or was it done after you bought it
Then it was submitted to BCS and undetected and then to PMG
Is this the basic process?

BWJM's full response to me:

As no personally identifiable information is publicly accessible, and for reasons previously mentioned, request denied.

It is in the best interests of the entire collecting community that the history of this note be available.  You would be well advised to learn from your mistake and take this opportunity to help others not make similar mistakes.  Taking you at your word that you are an innocent victim here, I feel sorry for you.  It was a mistake, and it's going to cost you.  Not because of anything that I or anyone else here has done... no, this is all on you.  You should have educated yourself before spending so much money.  You should have known to avoid a note that has been tampered with like this.  Think of it like buying a car... You get excited about some nice antique car, you're told that the panelling on the left side has been touched up a bit, but what you don't know is that it is after-market replacement parts made in China 50 years after the car stopped being produced.  It's no longer original, and no self-respecting car collector would want to own something like that, or at the very least wouldn't pay close to the kind of money that an original car would command.  Now you're stuck with it.  Do you try and cover up your mistake and pass it off to some other unsuspecting schmuck who doesn't know better, or will you admit your mistake, learn from it, sell it for parts and do your research next time?

I for one will play no role in a cover up like you are asking for.  Sorry.

I guess a wreck of a car has never been restored, using original parts, whether it meant finding them or removing rust from the ones that were, to bring it back to original showroom condition. Nah, that has never happened.

That's why companies like CarProof exist.... No matter what the item is, buyers DESERVE and EXPECT to know the history of the item, one way or another. There are way too many sketchy people trying to pass off totalled and restored cars, using your example, as original. Just to make a buck without regard to others. What happens to the third, fourth or fifth owner of this note? Do they not deserve to know what they are actually buying? Is not like they're going to cut the note of and examine it, they'll overpay for it bc of what the holder says ( in good faith that the tpg caught everything).

Lets see how honest you can be since you believe you did nothing wrong and cleaning is ok since it is now in your eyes, "Original"

The note was originally a BCS EF 40 so you said
Now it is a PMG AU
When you originally bought the bill was it stained and did someone cleaned it for you before you paid for it or was it done after you bought it
Then it was submitted to BCS and undetected and then to PMG
Is this the basic process?

Fine because you people on this board make one feel like they committed a crime.
I purchased the note raw, graded it at a 45 EF through BCS, noted 'major stain'.
I spoke with a paper conservator, who said he could remove the stain and not alter the note at all, so I went for it.
I got it re-graded and here we are.
I kept its originality and brought the note back to life.
He assured me he used processes that don't alter the note and only remove the stain.
Is that so wrong?

IMO if you know what you bought and are happy with the note and the price you paid... that is fine
If you cleaned the note and re graded it so it is more pleasing to the eye and wanted to keep it ....that is fine
If you try to sell the note to an unsuspecting buyer and misrepresenting it .....that is wrong...
Clearly the cat value between an EF and an AU is substantial ....without knowing the history of the note a buyer could get royally screwed to say the least...once the facts came to light.
I would not want to be this buyer...would you?

How refreshing it is to see this forum taking a stand on the issue of grading provenance!  I can remember a time about 10 years ago when this very subject was brought to the forum, and the whole matter was swept under the rug because the owner of the note was a high-profile dealer and forum sponsor.  I guess "Deleted Member" is not getting the same privileged treatment.

Now, before anyone accuses me of trying to poke the bear, I will simply post before-and-after pictures of the note that was at the centre of the previous deep-sixed discussion, and then we can decide if we want to "go there" using this newfound zeal for openness and honesty in a so-called attempt to protect consumer-collectors...

BEFORE (VF damaged)

AFTER (described as "Unc" by the auctioneer)

Now, I used to have an entire website where I hosted images of notes that had been altered.  The website is gone, but I still have the images.  Would anyone like to see more before and after pictures like the ones above?

Now, I used to have an entire website where I hosted images of notes that had been altered.  The website is gone, but I still have the images.  Would anyone like to see more before and after pictures like the ones above?

Personally I would like to see more...I think that the more knowledge we have at our fingertips the better it is for the hobby as a whole...
I also think that many new collectors that get taken in at the start of their collecting easily get discouraged and do not stick with it long enough to truly enjoy it....I know the old saying Buyer Beware...but it would be nice if there is less to BEWARE about

Now, after all this, can we can to the subject at hand.
Do we have an opinions on the value of the note?
That's all I wanted.
What is a fair market price of such a note?

Now, after all this, can we can to the subject at hand.
Do we have an opinions on the value of the note?
That's all I wanted.
What is a fair market price of such a note?

Probably equal to or less than the book value at the original grade

How refreshing it is to see this forum taking a stand on the issue of grading provenance!  I can remember a time about 10 years ago when this very subject was brought to the forum, and the whole matter was swept under the rug because the owner of the note was a high-profile dealer and forum sponsor.  I guess "Deleted Member" is not getting the same privileged treatment.

Now, before anyone accuses me of trying to poke the bear, I will simply post before-and-after pictures of the note that was at the centre of the previous deep-sixed discussion, and then we can decide if we want to "go there" using this newfound zeal for openness and honesty in a so-called attempt to protect consumer-collectors...

BEFORE (VF damaged)

AFTER (described as "Unc" by the auctioneer)

Now, I used to have an entire website where I hosted images of notes that had been altered.  The website is gone, but I still have the images.  Would anyone like to see more before and after pictures like the ones above?

You can't compare my note to this.
Mine had a lousy stain removed, this is day and night.

You may not be able to answer this (at least not on the forum) but here is my question
I assume you know who the auctioneer was and I assume at some point in time, even after the fact the auctioneer eventually became aware of the notes history..
How does this reflect on the auctioneer if he/she was in fact aware of the notes original "before" condition.
And if he/she was not aware of it, but later finds out, do they take any responsibility for their mistake?
If I was not aware of the past history (which I was not) and I purchased this note as an unc as described by the auctioneer's description I know I would be pretty disturbed by this.
The bottom line is ...it always up to the buyer to base his/her purchase on his/her own judgment and not take for granted that an auctioneer can be wrong...you would think there still should be some liability on the auctioneer....or what is the point in them describing any note that they cannot guarantee is what they say it is...
Hope this is somewhat clear to understand

You may not be able to answer this (at least not on the forum) but here is my question
I assume you know who the auctioneer was and I assume at some point in time, even after the fact the auctioneer eventually became aware of the notes history..
How does this reflect on the auctioneer if he/she was in fact aware of the notes original "before" condition.
And if he/she was not aware of it, but later finds out, do they take any responsibility for their mistake?
If I was not aware of the past history (which I was not) and I purchased this note as an unc as described by the auctioneer's description I know I would be pretty disturbed by this.
The bottom line is ...it always up to the buyer to base his/her purchase on his/her own judgment and not take for granted that an auctioneer can be wrong...you would think there still should be some liability on the auctioneer....or what is the point in them describing any note that they cannot guarantee is what they say it is...
Hope this is somewhat clear to understand

I don't agree with the comments on this board.
I'm also a comic book collector and pressing a comic book to get out imperfections is a heated topic as well.
In the end, nothing was added to the banknote; it has not been restored. A stain was removed to bring it back to its original beauty.
I utilized an industry expert who has worked with priceless works of art and assured me that methods utilized will damage/fade the note in the long-run and is in no way detectable.
Rather than appreciate a beautiful note has been brought back to life, you all bicker like old ladies.

I don't agree with the comments on this board.
I'm also a comic book collector and pressing a comic book to get out imperfections is a heated topic as well.
In the end, nothing was added to the banknote; it has not been restored. A stain was removed to bring it back to its original beauty.
I utilized an industry expert who has worked with priceless works of art and assured me that methods utilized will damage/fade the note in the long-run and is in no way detectable.
Rather than appreciate a beautiful note has been brought back to life, you all bicker like old ladies.

You stated

I utilized an industry expert who has worked with priceless works of art and assured me that methods utilized will damage/fade the note in the long-run

If an expert says that the method used "will damage" the note in the long run, who am I to question that...
Now my concern would be how bad would it fade....does this mean eventually it will just disappear...if so, it
may be a good thing ....a cleaned note gone from existence so we never have to worry about it popping up again

You stated
If an expert says that the method used "will damage" the note in the long run, who am I to question that...
Now my concern would be how bad would it fade....does this mean eventually it will just disappear...if so, it
may be a good thing ....a cleaned note gone from existence so we never have to worry about it popping up again

Sorry, typo, will NOT damage or fade.

friedsquid, you know what I meant.

friedsquid, you and everybody else, are more than welcome to put forward offers if you are interested in the note.

friedsquid, you and everybody else, are more than welcome to put forward offers if you are interested in the note.

I offer $50.00 considering the deflation of the dollar and the likelihood that the note may disappear (or fade at best) over time. I think that is fair
I will also cover postage

I offer $50.00 considering the deflation of the dollar and the likelihood that the note may disappear (or fade at best) over time. I think that is fair
I will also cover postage

I know you are all experts on paper conservation, so who am I to argue. Along with spending the entire day on this board, you know better and would know that there is no way to remove a stain and not damage the note.
You guys are all on a witch hunt.
I came for an opinion on a note and the value and you have demonized me from the get go.
As far as I'm concerned, you can all edited.

I've again had a request to get rid of all this stuff.  This time I relented, but only to delete the account of the original poster.  This was also done because said user resorted to profanity on the forums, which has also been cleaned up.

One other thing I wanted to share was a previous thread where the original poster showed the following images of a note only two numbers away with very similar staining:

canada-banknotes even had the following gem which he shared:

"Well I think that you may have overpaid (CAD $2800 + Bidders Premium + HST) for that note at the A.H. Wilkens auction in Oakville today.

I was on the Floor at the auction with numerous other dealers and collectors and viewed the note personally yesterday.

I don’t think you will get more than you paid for the note considering the major stain and damage to the note in the left margin."

A very wise man shared the following remark with me the other day... "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive".