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Topic: BC-48bT $5 RS Test Note  (Read 17229 times)
eyevet
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« on: June 06, 2005, 10:08:17 pm »

In a recent auction on e-bay for an RS test note, the vendor states that only 25 are known to exist.

Is this accurate?


TheMonetaryMan
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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2005, 11:57:02 pm »

Yes it is.

Please consider in the future contacting the vendor directly for proof of claim.

Troy


« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 11:57:29 pm by TheMonetaryMan »
Sammi
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2005, 12:32:31 am »

jus curious what these notes have neen seellinf for?
TheMonetaryMan
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2005, 12:38:42 am »

I will report the final sale price back to you later this evening, I will post the info here in this thread.

Thanks
Troy
BWJM
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2005, 12:54:09 am »

Quote
Please consider in the future contacting the vendor directly for proof of claim.
Actually, third-party verification of statistics such as these is often in the buyer's best interests. Of course, inquiring to the vendor as a "double-check" is often a good idea too.

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, think of buying a home... Would you take the seller's word that it's a fine home? No. You get a home inspector.

I'm not saying that sellers are liars. In fact, I like to believe that most sellers are genuine and honest. In this particular case, I believe we are dealing a decent vendor, but like all diligent buyers, I too would check a claim such as that. Especially since as a member of this community, I have ready access to that information.

BWJM, F.O.N.A.
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President, IBNS Ontario Chapter.
Treasurer, Waterloo Coin Society.
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Fellow of the Ontario Numismatic Association.
TheMonetaryMan
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2005, 01:11:19 am »

What should be done is contact the vendor directly to determine what kind of proof exists and then you make a judgement call if further proof/ verification is required.

Had this happened in this case the party would have been very satisfied with the information presented.

The "decent vendor" you refer to is eBay's leading dealer of Canadian Paper Money and runs a flawless feedback record and has the best return policy I have seen.

He also has extraordinary access to information and does everything possible to ensure claims are accurate.

I am not sure where you would like to take this thread but it definitely has my full attention.

Troy.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 01:20:35 am by TheMonetaryMan »
RS_dude
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2005, 01:34:56 am »

Good evening all

Some people would say there are more than 25 of these notes in exsistance, my $5 RS is a unrecorded number, so that makes it 26, & a few more that people are not willing to talk about . So its a pretty good guess of 25 - 30. How many are actually recorded ??? I would be most intrested in the number. Whats the real number Brent ???  Happy hunting all    Darcy :)
TheMonetaryMan
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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2005, 01:46:47 am »

Saying there are more than 25 known should not and cannot be accepted as accurate until a scan is supplied of the note and sent to those who maintain the register as I have done. They must then confirm that the note was not previously recorded.

I have met the required burden of proof and the register was adjusted accordingly.

The number of known/confirmed to exist notes often increases as new notes are potentially discovered. That is a given and outside the scope of the original post.

As for the comment "& a few more that people aren't willing to talk about" that I would dismiss as rumors, proof of claim is required otherwise it's just noise at best or what I would describe as garbage.  I have seen a lot of misinformation presented in various threads throughout the forum in days gone by. One such thread was a multi day effort to beat away information that was dead wrong from those who thought having some degree of expertise in Paper Money meant they were an expert in E-Commerce as well and even ready to be an educator on the topic.  Any thread I am involved with I will work towards keeping the information pure and all claims tested thoroughly.

Troy.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 02:28:42 am by TheMonetaryMan »
RS_dude
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2005, 02:02:27 am »

Good evening Troy

Straight from the mouth of Lub Wojtiw a few years ago, he said to me that there were about 25 of these notes, but he knew of several other $5 RS test notes that people were hording, but were not willing to release the number, for whatever reason.  

So what ever Lub has told me over the years, l've believed.  

Brent could you publish the known numbers on this site, or your site some where ??

Troy, good luck with your auctions, it's been a delight to see some of the stuff you offer, probably never see alot of it again. Would be nice to see more BOC stuff, 54 to date.   Have a good evening  Darcy
BWJM
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2005, 02:07:44 am »

Quote
What should be done is contact the vendor directly to determine what kind of proof exists and then you make a judgement call if further proof/ verification is required.

Had this happened in this case the party would have been very satisfied with the information presented.

The "decent vendor" you refer to is eBay's leading dealer of Canadian Paper Money and runs a flawless feedback record and has the best return policy I have seen.

He also has extraordinary access to information and does everything possible to ensure claims are accurate.

I am not sure where you would like to take this thread but it definitely has my full attention.

Troy.

Troy, I don't mean to offend. I apologize if I have in anything I have said thus far.

My entire point: There is nothing wrong with checking things out in whatever way one wants to. As a buyer, you are doing what is in your best interests. Sellers should not take offense to this, and in fact should encourage it.

This is not a debate about the seller. I have said nothing that was intended as or should be interpreted as a remark against the seller, or sellers in general. I harbour no grudges against this particular seller, nor would I have a problem recommending him to others.

This thread began as a question into whether or not the claim made in the auction posting was accurate. I never implied anything regarding the accuracy of the claim. You seem to be of the opinion that third-party verification is an indication of mistrust. I contend that it is merely acting in the sellers best interest.

It's called shopping around, checking things out and making an informed decision. When you make a large purchase, say for a car, the advertisement might say it gets 43 miles to a gallon, or has a better reliability rating than its competitor. Would you not want to perhaps check out the manufacturer's website for details of the vehicle? Maybe look at one of those car buyers guides at the bookstore? Or would you just go by what the dealer, even the guy who has owned the dealership for the last 45 years, is good friends with your brother, and a member of your coin club, says?

I myself sell items on eBay. In some auctions, I might make a claim about the rarity of the note. For example, I have one auction listed currently in which I state that this note had a quantity printed of a mere 920,000. I also state that this was confirmed by the Bank of Canada. Will I care if someone asks about the quantity printed on this site? No. Will I care if they email the Bank of Canada? No. I encourage them to do so because when they do, they will realize that I am correct, and this serves to establish or enhance the level of trust between buyer and seller.

Darcy: I don't know the number of RS $5s outstanding. I imagine Bob would know, but I haven't bothered to email him on the matter.

BWJM, F.O.N.A.
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President, IBNS Ontario Chapter.
Treasurer, Waterloo Coin Society.
Show Chair, Cambridge Coin Show.
Fellow of the Ontario Numismatic Association.
TheMonetaryMan
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2005, 02:08:07 am »

Hi Darcy,

Your warm comments mean a lot to me, thank you very much.

I am however as unconvinced as ever about there being more than 25 until the procees has been undertaken that I outlined to confirm that additional notes exist.

Thanks
Troy
TheMonetaryMan
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2005, 02:13:40 am »

Brent,

The most honorable way to conduct business is the way I described as the way to handle the situation not the way this thread started, nor am I pursuaded in any way by the various analogies you are presenting.

Perhaps it is these high standards of doing business and refusal to be pursuaded otherwise that have been the backbone of my success.

Troy



« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 02:14:33 am by TheMonetaryMan »
RS_dude
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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2005, 02:17:27 am »

To those who have left there RS notes in the closet, thanx, that'll keep the rarity, & price up, my note will remain in the closet til l pass on, then my wife will sell it, then the population WILL go to 26.      another 5 bucks worth    :)
TheMonetaryMan
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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2005, 02:18:58 am »

You sure have a strange way of keeping a secret Darcy..... ???
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 02:43:56 am by TheMonetaryMan »
TheMonetaryMan
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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2005, 02:23:16 am »

Sammi,

As promised I am reporting back to you on your question.

The notes have been selling for $1200 CDN in condition precisely like the one on eBay that just sold.

Thanks
Troy.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 02:23:55 am by TheMonetaryMan »
BWJM
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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2005, 02:52:44 am »

Quote
Brent,

The most honorable way to conduct business is the way I described as the way to handle the situation not the way this thread started, nor am I pursuaded in any way by the various analogies you are presenting.

Perhaps it is these high standards of doing business and refusal to be pursuaded otherwise that have been the backbone of my success.

Troy
Thank you for your response. I'm taking this opportunity to withdraw from the discussion as I see no benefit in pursuing this particular facet of it any further.

BWJM, F.O.N.A.
Life Member of CPMS, RCNA, ONA, ANA, IBNS, WCS.
President, IBNS Ontario Chapter.
Treasurer, Waterloo Coin Society.
Show Chair, Cambridge Coin Show.
Fellow of the Ontario Numismatic Association.
TheMonetaryMan
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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2005, 02:56:49 am »

Now that is how you earn respect my friend.

Very honorable of you.

Thanks Brent.

Troy
eyevet
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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2005, 04:26:28 am »

Quote
What should be done is contact the vendor directly to determine what kind of proof exists and then you make a judgement call if further proof/ verification is required.


Sorry that you took offense to my question.  A number of the knowledgeable people on this board have information and lists of known serial numbers and my request was to collaborate that information.   Having seen 4 or 5 RS test notes sold on e-bay in the last year and having seen another 6 or 7 sold at various auctions it seems that these notes seem to show up on a rather regular basis, so I was surprised to see your claim that only 25 are known.  That does not mean that I question your veracity...  it means that my impression based upon observation suggests that there are more.   Similarly the "33" test notes which also command a high price also seem to show up on e-bay and at auctions on a rather frequent basis.  Just 10 years ago in the 1995 edition of the catalogue the 1954 S/R $2 test notes were listed at $1750 for BC-38bT, $800 for BC-38cT and $600 BC-38dT.  Today you can pick the set of three up in unc for $2100.   What could cause this downturn  in the face of increased demand as the collector base grows?  A supply that is larger that was previously known.

For everyone's edification could you provide us
known serial numbers of the $5 RS test notes.  I am curious to see if mine is on your list.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 04:38:51 am by eyevet »


TheMonetaryMan
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« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2005, 09:01:12 am »

That list of known serial numbers represents intellectual property which has real commercial value.

I will contact Robert Graham to see if the owner is prepared to give you or "everyone" as you state, the information for free or at all on this one time basis only.

As far as your impressions of there being more than 25 well based on my experience with reporting to the registers of various notes I can tell you that the number will almost certainly grow beyond 25. However only 25 are known and confirmed to exist at this point in time.  I can also tell you there will likely be those who jump in this thread with stuff like "I have one in my closet" " I heard there is a hoard" etc etc. That is to be expected and is so predictable it's tiresome. I will be here until the end to find the truth and reveal any false or unvalidated information that manages to find its way in here.

But I assume you understand the essence of how this whole register thing works anyway so I do not accept this is a reason to deviate from what I argue is the most honorable way to proceed to validate a claim I have made publically.

You are of course free to do as you choose, however should you wish to do business with me in the future I would ever so gently request that you 1st contact me to find out what proof I have before determining whether or not you need to post like you did in an online forum, particularly one where I am a member of, seems almost silly. If after receiving the information from me you still feel you need additional validation then by all means go for it in a responsible manner. I have been contacted countless times in the past by informed others with similar "impressions" who seek proof of claim and validation and you certainly were the 1st to go about it the way that you did.

If this request is something which doesn't strike you as being honorable and the respectful thing to do or outside the scope of what reasonable men, experienced in commerce, should do then I would respectfully submit we have a difference of opinion which cannot be reconciled on the very serious matter of how best to do business.

This forum often questions seller practices and now you have eBay's leading seller of Canadian paper money putting the shoe on the other foot here and challenging you to elevate your own practices, while this may seem unnatural, it is very appropriate in this case.

Troy

« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 10:05:40 am by TheMonetaryMan »
BWJM
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« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2005, 10:57:25 am »

Quote
If this request is something which doesn't strike you as being honorable and the respectful thing to do or outside the scope of what reasonable men, experienced in commerce, should do then I would respectfully submit we have a difference of opinion which cannot be reconciled on the very serious matter of how best to do business.

This forum often questions seller practices and now you have eBay's leading seller of Canadian paper money putting the shoe on the other foot here and challenging you to elevate your own practices, while this may seem unnatural, it is very appropriate in this case.
Troy, you're the one who made this discussion into some personal attack against you or your selling practices. The thread started off as a very simple request for information. You immediately expressed your malcontent that someone should dare to verify a claim with a third party before asking you first. I countered that third-party verification is in fact in the buyer's best interests, and in return, you took that as an attack against your reputation, trustworthiness and integrity.

Perhaps you can knock your ego down a notch for a minute here. Nobody is out to attack you, but if you start picking fights like this, someone's going to end up landing a punch.

I will attempt to obtain population records for the RS $5 test notes. In the event that I do, I will post them here. If someone else gets them first, please send them to me by email or PM and I will post them here.

Until then... Thread closed.

BWJM, F.O.N.A.
Life Member of CPMS, RCNA, ONA, ANA, IBNS, WCS.
President, IBNS Ontario Chapter.
Treasurer, Waterloo Coin Society.
Show Chair, Cambridge Coin Show.
Fellow of the Ontario Numismatic Association.
admin
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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2005, 10:04:42 pm »

Well, we lost Brent and determined that the real CPMS list says there are 27 confirmed notes. These registers are published on an on-going basis in the Candian Paper Money Newsletter and work is underway to publish a separate book with an update of them all.

Of course, the amusing part of that is, Brent is part of the team working on it.  ::)
 

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