1870 $1 bill - low grade, how low?

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

Need opinions on the grading of this bill. Does it qualify to be a VG? Thanks.

The loss of design on the back is a serious detriment.
But the main problem is, this note looks to me to be a counterfeit.

Bob- I never looked at it in that light before- to me I would have a concern with the wear on the ink of the serial numbers....
To me, that would cause me to investigate further.  Hmmm. Not sure, as this style of note is far from my specialty.

So what do I need to do now? Do I bring it to a dealer?

See if you can return it where you bought it for a refund.
There is a short item on identifying the counterfeits on page 112 in Charlton, 22nd ed.  Additional information was published in the CPMS Newsletter Dec. 1998 pages 108-109.

I only have the 21st edition. Would you kindly point out why you'd think this bill is a counterfeit?

See if you can return it where you bought it for a refund.
There is a short item on identifying the counterfeits on page 112 in Charlton, 22nd ed.  Additional information was published in the CPMS Newsletter Dec. 1998 pages 108-109.

Are you 100% sure this is a counterfit? Because I'm about to tell the seller about it and for him to return payment.

The engraving, particularly faces and shading, is quite inferior.  As the catalogue points out (page 124 in the 21st), Cartier's eye is nothing but a coarse black dot.  The check letter D occurs on all counterfeits.  The counterfeiter did not have the correct numbering font as used by BABN, and the several he did try are all wrong.  There is little detail in the shield held by the helmetted figure in the centre.  There would be more but a higher resolution scan would be needed to show it.

But it was a good deal, I bet 

In fact, wasn't it the one you talk about here getting it for $510 US?

http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/forum/index.php?topic=10435.0

Actually, every Charlton Catalogue since 1984 refers to the Toronto notes as being 'extensively counterfeited' with a 'crude black' dot for the eye of Cartier.  None of the catalogue's ever refer to the different font for the serial number or ever show a picture of Cartier's portrait unlike the description for the 1878 Dufferin $2 bill.

Ironically, i have only seen two of these 'contemporary counterfeit' notes compared to about a 100+ of the real ones, I would expect to see more if the were extensively counterfeited.  One note I saw was about 20 years ago, dealer presenting it as authentic at a bourse and other about 10 years ago were it was identified as a contemporary counterfeit (The Bay in downtown Toronto).  The Bay was selling it for $50 in VG. Both  notes were Toronto ones and had that different font which is on this note - which was actually the first thing you notice.

To Art_1_Paper did seller say it was genuine? 

Still and interesting piece of history, more interesting how they counterfeited the notes over 140 years ago.

There is another one "Payable at Toronto" coming up on ebay right now. Item #250553338739. It's sitting at US $2000.in VF.

There is another one "Payable at Toronto" coming up on ebay right now. Item #250553338739. It's sitting at US $2000.in VF.

I don't think this is really VF lol. I rather have my note at $510 US than that one.

And yes the seller told me it is genuine. He/she has been selling high end stuff worth thousands including some 1935 notes in high grade and $4 notes in mid grade. Why would he/she risk his reputation for $500?

To quote the seller:

Yes, we are certain this note is genuine. We have inquiries about the black dot issue during the time of the auction. A professional currency dealer reviewed it and deemed it “definitely genuine”.  He also wrote:
It has all of the detail that should be there on a genuine note.  The counterfeits are much softer without all of the sharp detail when you zoom in or look with a loop. 

And then she sent me a zoomed scan on Cartier's face.

Also, just how much are counterfit notes worth?

I saw an 1878 counterfit $2 note. It is extremely rare if genuine, but even counterfit must be worth something, right?

You can find it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DKKVkDp1cI&feature=related at around 1:05

There should be no correlation between the value of a genuine note and a counterfeit of the same issue.  If there was, counterfeit 1917 Imperial Bank $100 notes would be worth four figures, but they are not.

There should be no correlation between the value of a genuine note and a counterfeit of the same issue.  If there was, counterfeit 1917 Imperial Bank $100 notes would be worth four figures, but they are not.

I never said there was a correlation. The thing is, you got sellers selling "COPIES" of rare notes for $20. These "copies" are one side per page.

My question is, how much is an 1878 counterfit $2 note worth and how much is an 1870 counterfit $1 note worth?

I think it is safe to say that by the time these notes were detected to be counterfit, they would have been destroyed unless they already had some sort of collector value to them.

What if someone paid you with a fake $20 bill? Would you not report it and send it back to get destroyed? If fake, even a 1937 $20 would not be kept in today's time.

How can anyone claim this obviously counterfeit note is genuine?
Click on this link to see what a genuine Toronto $1 1870 should look like.  Be sure to enlarge the image of the note face.

http://www.currencymuseum.ca/collection/artefact/view/1963.0014.00110.000/canada-dominion-of-canada-1-dollar-july-1-1870

Now compare to the counterfeit image in this thread.  Get them both up on your monitor together.
Examine in particular the engraving of Cartier's head, including the eye and beard, and the shading behind him.
Examine the eye of the child at the right of the centre vignette, also the hair and the outstretched hand.
Examine the details on the shield held by the helmetted woman, and her fingers over the globe.
The dove has an olive branch in her beak on the genuine but this detail is pretty much lost on the counterfeit.
Examine the digits of the sheet number, particularly the 2s.
The imprints would also give away the forgery but the images won't allow the necessary enlargement.  Anyway there should be enough above to make the case decisively.

I think it is safe to say that by the time these notes were detected to be counterfit, they would have been destroyed unless they already had some sort of collector value to them.

People never throw out money, even if it is hopelessly bad, always hoping it will miraculously turn into cash.  That's why there are so many Confederate notes surviving after almost 150 years.  And Colonial and International Bank notes from this side of the border, and counterfeit Dominion notes too.

I have to agree with Bob and go against the "professional currency dealer" in this case.  Opinions are great, even professional ones, but Bob has hard evidence 

Art_1_Paper, you should ask for money back and if they still give you the run around send it to a TPG, like BCS and have them provided you with a professional 'independent' opinion to whether it's counterfeit.  i think all TPG have some guarantee about notes being genuine.

Hopefully you have a email from the vendor saying it's 'genuine'. 

As for a value I think the contemporary counterfeit might be in the range of $50-$100 - only my opinion.  I have an original and counterfeit $2 1878 and they look pretty neat side by side.  I paid $150 for the counterfeit about 20 years ago - which was probably too much.

I've provided a link to an enlarged scan of the left-hand side of a genuine note for comparison purposes. My note is a Montreal (not Toronto) issue and that's why the serial number is in blue rather than red. The font style on the genuine note is clearly different and superior. However, the signatures on the counterfeit note conform very closely indeed with the genuine signatures.

The counterfeit note is of "commendable" quality in my opinion and it would be interesting to determine how exactly it was manufactured. I presume it is some sort of photographic reproduction? It is not necessarily a contemporary counterfeit as it could possibly have been made in more recent times to deceive collectors(?) It's still an interesting piece and not totally devoid of value but if it was offered in a public auction as what it is, i.e., a copy, I don't think it would sell for more than $100.

http://img.villagephotos.com/imageview.aspx?i=26010576

Ottawa:  Regarding the production of the counterfeit, I do not believe it is either photographic or modern, but that it came from an engraved plate in the 1870s.  I believe I know who the counterfeiter was (and who nailed him!), and I can show that the plate existed in two states and the reasons why this is so.  A short paper for CPMS is likely to come out of this so I'll let it go at that for now.

Ottawa:  Regarding the production of the counterfeit, I do not believe it is either photographic or modern, but that it came from an engraved plate in the 1870s.  I believe I know who the counterfeiter was (and who nailed him!), and I can show that the plate existed in two states and the reasons why this is so.  A short paper for CPMS is likely to come out of this so I'll let it go at that for now.

That sounds very interesting, Bob. I wonder if it's possible that the counterfeiter surreptitiously used a genuine plate but had to add the red sheet numbers himself, or something like that. It seems to me that it's the poor style of the sheet number font that gives away the counterfeit note more than anything else. It's a pity that the scan of the counterfeit note is not a bit clearer thereby permitting a more microscopic analysis of the printed details.

Took the note to a dealer. He looked at it with a magnifying glass and said it's real. I looked at it and Cartier's eye is not just a "black dot". The bill is heavily worn however. Only a VG-8. Will get more opinions.