2nd time around -1937 $20.00 banknote

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

I have a 1937 $20.00 banknote.  KE   8146444   Coyne/Towers   To my untrained eye,   I believe it to be in  unc to gunc condition.  I know what the Charlton values it at but  I would to know what I can expect to receive for it from a collector versus a business that buys & sells bank notes?

I just received a notice from Canadian Currency concerning this note.  they said it looked like AU.  This note along with several others look like they were purchased and stored away - definitely never circulated.   Even if it was in AU condition, it would be valued at $165.00 - not like the $70.00 they offered!  That is not even 50% of its value.  Is that the kind of response I can expect when trying to sell these notes?

From some individuals, yes.  I don't know who this 'Canadian Currency' individual is that you speak of (certainly no username registered here like that), so I can't speak to that.  Dealers will generally make what seem to be fairly low offers.  They do this because they buy and sell notes as a business and they have various expenses that they need to cover based on the gross margin they make on buying and selling numismatic items.  So from a dealer, an offer of 60% of catalogue value is often considered to be a strong bid.

Collectors on the other hand have very different motivations usually, so they will often pay much closer to catalogue value.

That said, there's always someone out there who has less than honest intentions and may try to make lowball offers in hopes of scoring a good deal for themselves.  I make no presumption that this forum is free of those types of people.  But as moderators, we are not here to mediate trades.

We have many well-known numismatists on this forum, and many others who are all honest and reasonable people.  I'm sorry that your experience with the previous individual was less than ideal.

The underwhelming offer of $70 may be related to the fact that the image of your note is very indistinct.  You "believe" the grade is Unc or better and give the impression that this note is somehow special by how it was saved from reaching circulation.  But every old note that is truly uncirculated is a freak in that regard.  Not only does the note have to be uncirculated when it is put aside in the past, but it also has to remain that way throughout the decades.  Lots of stored notes get damaged or mishandled and end up in quite imperfect condition when they show up for their inaugural offering to the collector market.

So your note's image makes me think your note could be in any grade from VF to Unc.  The contrast is too high and the edges look cropped.  Most people don't take good pictures of notes.  I would estimate that 80-90% of all banknote images online have the brightness and/or contrast cranked up too high.  Nefarious individuals know this and deliberately copy this imaging technique as a way of selling overgraded notes.  As such, it is up to every person viewing an image to use rough justice in estimating grade, and for that reason, I don't think it was unreasonable of someone to give an opinion of AU.  It might even be generous because, as I said earlier, any unsoiled note in VF or higher could be made to look like yours in a small indistinct image.  Therefore the offer of $70 doesn't seem outrageous.  A decent-looking 1937 $20 note should be salable at that price, thus worth the gamble of such an offer.

BWJM made many good points about pricing in his editorial response of dealers versus private buyers, so I don't need to repeat them here.

The last point I want to add here is that many high-grade 1937 series notes are not in original condition.  Many notes look like they were cleaned/washed/pressed/trimmed (or any combination of these), hence the risk factor of buying such a note makes it hard to offer good money without seeing proof that the note is original.  Images where the contrast and/or brightness is too high makes a note look "flat", and flatness equates to being processed.  You want people to see texture in an image, even if that means making the note's faults that much more apparent.  If a note has good texture, it is probably not processed, and you should get decent offers.

Great points raised by BWJM & mmars.  As both responses allude to: its likely a collector who will pay more if they believe the note is a "keeper" based on excellent "eye appeal" or possibly a need in their collection.  What you have to consider is whether the urgency to turn your note into money today (expediency possible with a dealer) is worth it & this convenience over the possible haggle/delay/risk of payment you may encounter with a private collector (but higher return). 

Also- if it were me (viewing to put an offer up for your note) - I would have to (at least) see the reverse of the note.  I find the reverse image of a note reveals much more than the front (just like seeing the full borders).

And then again- although a 1937 $20 may seem a pretty rare/maybe even scarce note in high grade, a lot of these notes pass under the noses of dealers.  Even collectors like to see older signature combinations or higher grades before buying/making an offer.  Try to keep in mind that the catalogue is strictly a guide a collector (not a dealer) may pay if they wish to purchase that note (often the figure is highest amount paid).  It does not take into account whether the market is soft or hit (influenced) by any outside factors.

Personally, I think that if you have a note up for sale and are accepting offers, you should expect to get offers that are what you consider unreasonable no matter what you think or believe is fair or not. Lowball offers are part and parcel of trying to sell something. The fact that some one is willing to purchase something without seeing it in person is still taking a risk on their part as many have already stated how deceiving a photo can be (and this is not to say your photo is manipulated or enhanced)...
W2W has a point about posting a picture of the back of the note as that can make a difference as to what people think of the note...
In the real world everyone wants a deal and they are put together when two parties agree to what something is worth to both of them and this will always be determined by the situation at the time...whether a buyer really wants what you have for sale or you really need the money for other things...
In the overall picture if a dealer is willing to buy a note for say 60% of cat price you shouldn't be offended if a collector is offering the same...I don't think dealers should have some special category that separates them...how many collectors have bought notes and later upgraded and are stuck with a note they bought that they can't sell because they over paid...everyone wants to be in a situation where they don't lose money...
Another fact being that if a dealer is also a collector does he say I will give you more because this is for my personal collection and I am not going to sell it (for now anyways)
If someone walked up to you at a show and offered to sell you a note at 50% of catalogue price how many of you would say no thanks, but I will give you 80% of catalogue because that is what it is really worth...I see a few noses growing already

The company with whom I was inquiring about the 1937 $20.00 was REMOVED, not a member of your forum.  This company advertises online offering to sell or buy bank notes.  I am sure you are familiar with them.  I also have 7 1937 $1.00 ( 3 are consecutive numbers), 4 1937 $5.00 (3 are consecutive numbers) and 3 1937 $10.00.  They are all in the same condition and have been stored away by myself in sandwich bags since 1999 and before that in an old cash box.  I am sure they have been handled but I don't think they have ever been used as legal tender. 

Thank you for all your opinions - it is really an eye opener.

[edit]The identity of the third party has been removed to avoid any possible allegations of slander, etc., even if unintentional. Suffice to say that it is a large-scale numismatic dealer from Ontario.  --BWJM[/edit]

I am posting the back of this bill.  I was not able to post it with the front of the bill.

just wondering what the red smudge is on the lower side of back of note?

I have no idea what the smudge is.  I never noticed it before.

I have no idea what the smudge is.  I never noticed it before.

This is exactly why some people will not buy a note they don't see in person, or offer a price lower than what you personally believe  it is worth because they really don't know what to expect once it is in their hands. The first thing is that you say you have never noticed the smudge before and assuming you did not notice it, this could make the value of the note drop considerably since in my eyes it distracts from the appeal of the note and may be subject to some handling not originally suspected. Maybe ink, or lipstick, who knows what :)You initially stated all notes looked like they were in the same condition, so the question now is do they all have these smudges, or is this the only one...?
Also, if a buyer purchased the note from you and once received said the note is not as described pointing out the red smudge (assuming you clearly had no idea it was there) would you take their word for it, or think they were trying to pull a fast one trying to get a refund/ price reduction/ or want to send it back? The bottom line is sometimes people do make lowball offers to take into account things such as this..sometimes they win...sometimes they lose...On the other hand, you could always get the notes graded for a few bucks and see what a TPG determines its condition is...and they may sell better to a collector that believes a TPG is the end all be all factor...

I think I would like to send the 1937 $20.00 banknote to someone for a professional opinion.  Could you tell me how much it would cost and would you be able to recommend a reputable company?

I think I would like to send the 1937 $20.00 banknote to someone for a professional opinion.  Could you tell me how much it would cost and would you be able to recommend a reputable company?

I would recommend BCS in Kitchener, Ontario. A link to their website pricing structure is

http://www.banknotecertification.com/pricingstructure.php

The owner is Steve Bell. If you have any questions, give him a call. He is extremely knowledgeable and helpful
and right now they have a great deal for the summer if you have a minimum of 10 notes it is $7.00 per note.
A single note to get graded is $15.00 (+HST)

FRIEDSQUID

Thank you very much for all your help.

Thank you very much for all your help.

Once you get them graded it would be nice see pics of them

Once you get them graded it would be nice see pics of them

Why? Does getting notes slabbed enhance their appearance?  I thought slabbing made it harder to examine notes.

I have 13 1937 banknotes so I think I will send all of the at once.  Hopefully I will have enough posts so I can put them on Trading Post. 

Why? Does getting notes slabbed enhance their appearance?  I thought slabbing made it harder to examine notes.

No a slabbed note does not make the note look better and yes it is harder to examine a note encased in plastic
My reason was strictly to see how the member's belief as to the grade compares to a TPG's assessment.

Just out of curiousity, I wonder if she got them graded?

The notes that would be really worth more, I think are the 1937 $5 notes that are consecutive.  I feel that these would fetch a premium (especially in graded condition confirming UNC+, but even in AUNC).  Same with the 1937 $1 (more common, though they are) if graded 60+ she could easily put the consecutive 3 up for auction online and get upwards of $100 a piece for them.

I wouldn't mind getting a few of the $5 as the examples I have are all so-so!