CPM Forum
General => Banknote Grading Standards and TPG => Topic started by: BWJM on January 11, 2008, 07:03:39 pm
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BCS (Banknote Certification Service) is a new third party grading company run by Steve Bell (you may know him as the paper money guy at Colonial Acres Coins in Kitchener, ON). If you've ever bought notes from Colonial Acres, you know that they are generally graded quite strict.
If you know me, you'll know that I rather dislike anything I've seen from TPG organizations to date. The other day, after hearing a talk by Steve at the Waterloo Coin Society meeting, and having an opportunity to ask him several questions, I decided to send in a few notes for grading.
While Steve does use a numeric grading scale, he is very conservative in his grading, and it very closely aligns with the strict standards that I have seen in use by most educated Canadian paper money collectors. Almost all the notes that I sent in for grading came back assigned with grades that I expected.
For the best note I sent in, I figured it was as close to flawless as I have seen. No cutting cup, no waves, nice gloss finish, well-defined intaglio printing, etc. I graded it a Gem UNC. It came back as Gem UNC 65. I was very satisfied by all the notes I had graded.
BCS is a refreshing taste of third party grading. We're definitely not talking about another PMG here. You can be assured that when you get a note back from BCS, it is the grade that it says it is. I would strongly recommend that you consider BCS for any future notes that you want graded. Tell Steve that Brent sent you.
Colonial Acres is the official drop-off and pick-up location for BCS, and their website is http://www.banknotecertification.com.
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Sounds appealing... what kind of currency note holders do they use. Unfortunately, their website's "Our Holders" section doesn't appear to work... no photos... so, if I am assuming if they graded your notes... did they place it in their holders?
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The holders they use are similar in size and format to PMG, except that the plastic is clearer and slightly softer, and the note is in a secondary sleeve. Both are non-volatile plastic. The holder is heat-sealed with no holes where water or moisture could get in. This holder also avoids one of the problems with PMG in that they leave the note dangerously close to the top seam, and sometimes that leads you to wonder if they crimped the edge of the note in the seam. BCS holders make this impossible.
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I will be meeting with Steve next week.. I will add my two cents then.
Scott
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BTW: I was asked why I switched sides so dramatically lately, going from staunchly anti-TPG to reasonably pro-TPG.
I'm not pro-TPG as the term generally implies. I still do not agree with the grading of PMG or most of the others that I have seen. BCS is simply the best I've seen to date. I have seen their work first hand (putting my money where my mouth is by sending a small number of notes so I could have a sample of their work) and I know and trust the man behind BCS. Should you decide to get your notes graded, I recommend BCS. (Note that I did not say "go get your notes graded and get them done by BCS.")
Am I going to run out and get all of my notes graded by BCS? Unlikely. Am I going to send a few more to BCS over time? Potentially. Am I going to support the blatant overgrading done by PMG? Not a chance.
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Here is my two cents:
I recently had 22 notes graded by Steve at BCS. I really took the time to study and grade these notes and tried to assign a number for each that I thought would correspond with Steve's and Charlton's standards. Here is an example of what I found for nine of the notes:
BC-62aA 2001 AOB23087**
- strong embossing
- well centered
- two very light counting dimples
I graded it unc 63 - it came back choice unc 63
BC-63cA 2003 BEK93908**
- strong embossing
- well centered
- no visible marks
I graded it unc 65 - it came back choice unc 64
BC-62bA 2005 HPA59616**
- well centered
- one very light boarder mark
I graded it unc 64 - it came back choice unc 64
BC-63c 2003 BEK88433**
- well centered
- strong embossing
- partial as made ripple
- a little excess ink on the lower boarder
I graded it unc 64 - it came back gem unc 65
BC-68aA 2004 FEP00965**
- just a hair off center
- heavy cutting cup but no other visible marks
I graded it unc 64 - it came back choice unc 63
BC-63cA 2004 BER97067**
-no faults - a very nice note
I graded it unc 65 - it came back gem unc 66
BC-65aA 2004 AHF97050**
- well centered
- very light mark
- cutting cup
I graded it unc 64 - it came back choice unc 63
BC-65aA-i 2004 FMI80940**
- well centered
- cutting cup
I graded it unc 64 - it came back choice unc 63
BC-64aA 2004 AYR16814**
- well centered
- strong embossing
- no marks or ripples
I graded it unc 65 - it came back gem unc 66
Of the 22 notes I submitted, three notes came back with higher grades than I anticipated ( all by one point ), and eight came back with a lower score ( all by one point ). Over all I was very satisfied with his grading and will continue to use his services.
Scott
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Thanks for reporting in your results.
I am planning on sending in some notes as well.
I have had some communication with Steve and he has answered all my questions promptly.
I am looking forward to sending my notes off and getting them back. I do like the promotion price they are offering as well for the next while.
If I like the grading I receive from the first batch I may send others before the "Promotion" time ends.
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BCS's web site looks very professional indeed although I did detect several spelling errors/typos that need to be corrected. Their plastic holders look impressive and I applaud their willingness to take a stand and call a spade a spade by using unambiguous words like "ORIGINAL" to describe an unwashed/unpressed note and "APQ" (Altered Paper Quality) to describe a washed/pressed note, etc. It will be a real joy to get away from that awfully evasive cop-out term employed by PMG, i.e. "EPQ" (Exceptional Paper Quality), which conveys little or no useful information and is confusing at best.
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Sounded like a great idea as I finally was going to take the plunge and have a few notes graded to start. I've heard nothing but good about BCS's work. Plus I wanted to take advantage of their special pricing until July.
Being 5 plus hours away from Kitchener I sent an email with a few questions and concerns last week. Maybe they are way busy, that I am not sure of.
Has anyone else had the same problem with getting a response from BCS? Or do you think one week is not enough for a reply?
Denis
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I've always called them direct.
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I have met with Steve in kitchener to have a note graded , but he won't do error notes. he was though very helpful and willing to give me all his time.
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I had emailed him a few questions about his service and he emailed me a response within 24 hours. He answered all of my questions very well. I wonder why it is taking so long to get back to you in your case?? ???
Ian
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Well just in case the problem was at my end I resent the email last night. I will give it a few more days before I decide what I'll be doing.
Denis
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Here is my two cents:
I recently had 22 notes graded by Steve at BCS. I really took the time to study and grade these notes and tried to assign a number for each that I thought would correspond with Steve's and Charlton's standards. Here is an example of what I found for nine of the notes:
BC-62aA 2001 AOB23087**
- strong embossing
- well centered
- two very light counting dimples
I graded it unc 63 - it came back choice unc 63
BC-63cA 2003 BEK93908**
- strong embossing
- well centered
- no visible marks
I graded it unc 65 - it came back choice unc 64
BC-62bA 2005 HPA59616**
- well centered
- one very light boarder mark
I graded it unc 64 - it came back choice unc 64
BC-63c 2003 BEK88433**
- well centered
- strong embossing
- partial as made ripple
- a little excess ink on the lower boarder
I graded it unc 64 - it came back gem unc 65
BC-68aA 2004 FEP00965**
- just a hair off center
- heavy cutting cup but no other visible marks
I graded it unc 64 - it came back choice unc 63
BC-63cA 2004 BER97067**
-no faults - a very nice note
I graded it unc 65 - it came back gem unc 66
BC-65aA 2004 AHF97050**
- well centered
- very light mark
- cutting cup
I graded it unc 64 - it came back choice unc 63
BC-65aA-i 2004 FMI80940**
- well centered
- cutting cup
I graded it unc 64 - it came back choice unc 63
BC-64aA 2004 AYR16814**
- well centered
- strong embossing
- no marks or ripples
I graded it unc 65 - it came back gem unc 66
Of the 22 notes I submitted, three notes came back with higher grades than I anticipated ( all by one point ), and eight came back with a lower score ( all by one point ). Over all I was very satisfied with his grading and will continue to use his services.
Scott
I submitted 3 Notes at the CAND show on Sunday 26th, and received a phone call on Tuesday morning stating my notes were ready which I though was pretty neat. Most grading companies the wait time is significantly longer. I will post the results of the grades when I pick them up on the weekend.
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I sent in 20 Notes yesterday via Mail. They should arrive today.
I am glad that they should make the queue before they go to the Paris Show. I am sure there will be a bunch of notes being sumbitted especially if they are keeping the $10 intro price at the show.
Just glad I will get them back before those notes get in the queue to be graded.
Steve replied back this week that the current turn around was 1-2 weeks with return shipping.
When I get them back I am will post any significant findings.
I decided to send in the $1 1954 *SO note I got from the now banned E-Bay Person who appears to be "cleaning" "repairing" and re-selling.
I sent it in to see what the experts think of it. :) $10.. I had to find out.
I really hope that BCS gets more business and they remain.
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Well no answer again for a second time but I'll give it another shot. 3 times a charm as they say.
Denis
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I don't think there is all that much difference between TPGs.
I had a consecutive run of very nice BEKs. Grades returned were PMG-66, CCGS-65 ( Andy doesn't use 66 ) CCCS-66 and BCS-66. A few consecutive BEY 2.96 that came back as 66 from CCCS, BCS and PMG.
I had some disappointments from PMG as well. I submitted an nice unc *CD that returned as AU-58. A very nice BET came back as PMG-64. The best of a run of 4 gorgeous ATX came back as PMG-66 while the other 3 ( graded 4 months later ) came back as 67s.
There will always be inconsistencies among TPGs. Only time will tell which one collectors like the best.
Gary
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Hmm, it is almost as though there is no real advantage to TPG then .....
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I don't think there is all that much difference between TPGs.......
There will always be inconsistencies among TPGs. Only time will tell which one collectors like the best.
Gary
I understand that many people seem critical of PMG grading, but if you take into consideration the actual quantity of notes that they grade, is the number of notes that people find fault with only a Minuit portion?
I'm sure time will tell when other TPG's start to grade more notes...how many in proportion will be criticised???
FRIEDSQUID
I agree with you Gary, there will always be inconsistencies and it will be up to the collectors which TPG (if any) will be most desireable. However, from what I have seen at shows, ebay, private sales, etc. PMG is still the most recognizeable and well known TPG out there and people are still buying and selling PMG graded notes. As for me, I have gotten notes graded by both PMG and BCS and I too have already seen issues with both. However, in saying that I will still use both graders for certain items.
I will admit one thing, and that is Steve Bell (of BSC) is definitely providing GREAT customer service, and turn around time for any notes given to him and more than willing to take the time to help and explain any questions and/or issues you may have.
I will applaud him for that.....Keep up the good work Steve.
FRIEDSQUID
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BCS does have a nice holder.
It is stiff enough to protect the notes from being bent inadvertantly.
All notes are presented with serial number and identifier strip on the same side. PMG always inserts the front of each note with the identifier strip so, in the case of multicolour, bird and journey notes, one has to flip the holder over to verify the note is properly catalogued.
Steve catalogues each note fully and in the comment section includes important additional info eg: radar, changoeover and exceptional embossing.
Service is very good and BCS is local to us here in southern Ontario.
Check this link for the look at some of the descriptors:
http://gwfedora.tripod.com/bcs.jpg (http://gwfedora.tripod.com/bcs.jpg)
Gary
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Well I got my notes back from BCS and I a quite happy.
I made it in before the Paris show. They Recieved them on Thursday last week and I got them back yesterday. 1 Week turnaround.
All the notes came back with a grade I had expected pretty much.
A few notes were a bit lower than I thought they would be. I probably would not of sent them in. But I am still learning in the grading area.
I do really like the holders. As mentioned above. Very professional looking and sturdy. A few of my Multicolor series even came back with "exceptional embossing" :)
I feel that from what I have read and seend BCS is much better than PMG graded notes IMO.
I came across several notes up for auction last week graded PMG GEM66 on E-Bay in which you could clear as day see mutiple bends in the notes.
Oh well.. I will just say I am pleased with customer service and BCS in General from my own experience.
I will most likely send a few more notes down the road to be graded.
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I can't wait to see what my notes end up being graded as. I dropped in to see Steve today and gave him 5 replacement notes that aside from being handled slightly have been in their holders for a long time. Unfortunately I only had one of each EIX, AIX, 510, 516 and ADX, so they will likely stay in my collection. Perhaps later I will get the pair of EDX notes certified and try selling one of them.
Steve did a great job explaining the grading process at last month's Waterloo Coin Society meeting. :D I checked out some competitor websites for comparasin and was most impressed with Steve's. The introductory price per Banknote and the fact it's a local company certainly helped to sell the service.
I'm wondering whether the increase in the popularity of certified Banknotes will add to their value and collectability. I hesitate to have any notes certified that I have paid a premium or market value for only to lose that additional investment. Any thoughts on that? I like many collectors still spend most if not all of their numismatic purchases on 'raw' items although I do see the value when it comes to higher end stuff for going with TPGs.
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I sent 38 EF/AU/UNC notes to BCS recently in two separate batches and received them back by Fedex three days later. It's hard to beat that sort of service! BCS grading is definitely on the very strict side, but that is not a bad thing. Although the large majority of the assigned grades were the same as my own grades (within one point), several of the best condition notes came back a bit lower than I had expected (e.g., 62/63 instead of 65/66). I did not receive any Gem Unc grades (65 or better) although I had hoped for a few. Perhaps the explanation for this is that my vision is starting to deteriorate as old age approaches! There were a few pressed notes in my submissions and BCS correctly detected all of those. BCS uses the word "Original" to indicate original unprocessed notes. If that word is not present on the holder then you can assume that the note in question has been pressed or processed in some way. Another observation is that a pressed/processed note cannot receive a grade higher than EF, and that is the way it should be.
I possess only one PMG graded note and that is an AU50. It appeared overgraded right from the start so I cut it out and have shown it to about 20 people over the last year. The consensus opinion is that it's a weak EF at the very best. With BCS you can be essentially 100% confident that your note is at least equal to the assigned grade whereas with PMG and some of the other American TPG companies you just cannot have that sort of confidence. In my opinion, it's important for more collectors and dealers to start using BCS (as well as the other Canadian TPG companies, CCGS and CCCS) on a regular basis and get Canadian-slabbed notes into "circulation" at shows, on eBay and elsewhere.
I did notice that on three of my BCS graded notes some foreign material had got inside the holders prior to their being sealed (this is a well-known problem with plastic holders because of static electricity). On one note there was a human hair inside, on another there was a small piece of dark fluff in an unfortunate place, and on the other there was a minute blob of sticky material in the margin of the note (probably emanating from a sticky label). I decided to slit open the holders on these three notes so that the notes can now be inspected in the flesh. I fully realize that this invalidates the opinion printed on the holders but, personally speaking, I still like to be able to inspect my notes in the flesh. In particular, I would be very reluctant to buy an expensive AU/Unc note ($500+) based purely on a TPG assigned grade without inspecting it in the flesh. Based on my observations with BCS, it's clear that one microscopic paper imperfection can in some cases make the difference between a 65/66 and a 62/63 and it's seldom possible to see such an imperfection through double layers of plastic.
All in all I'm very pleased with the service, holder quality and grading accuracy of BCS.
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Thank you for sharing this information.
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Yes.. thanks for your input on BCS.
I plan to continue to use BCS for any further Grading of my Notes. I find they are entirely Fair and Strict on the grade they assign a note.
I also like the holders they use and the "Double" note in a holder inside the entire unit.
I am awaiting another batch from them currently although I already know the Assigned grades from the Website lookup tool. Which is another nice thing BCS Provides. The ability to lookup Certifications on notes.
The pricing is fair as well as the shipping costs.
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Yes .. thanks for your input on BCS. I plan to continue to use BCS for any further Grading of my Notes. I find they are entirely Fair and Strict on the grade they assign a note. I also like the holders they use and the "Double" note in a holder inside the entire unit. I am awaiting another batch from them currently although I already know the Assigned grades from the Website lookup tool. Which is another nice thing BCS Provides. The ability to lookup Certifications on notes. The pricing is fair as well as the shipping costs.
No doubt about it, the overall processing cost is very fair indeed (just under $13.00 per note for me including return shipping, insurance & GST). However, there are definitely pros and cons to "Strict" grading. Generally speaking, strict grading is good for people who want to buy but not so good for people who want to sell. For example, a "strict" BCS/Charlton grade of AU might well garner an Unc-63 grade at PMG while a strict BCS/Charlton Unc-60 may garner an Unc-64/65 at PMG. I think that's the principal reason why so many Canadian eBay sellers and and online auctioneers opt to send their notes to PMG for grading, plus the fact that American buyers are comfortable with PMG grading standards. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with PMG grading but it must be remembered that PMG employs laxer American grading standards and not the much stricter Canadian standards. I've attached below an image of a typical PMG Choice Unc-64 EPQ, which, in my opinion, would barely receive an Unc-60 rating at BCS.
Another problem with overly strict grading is that dealers and collectors will remove the note from the holder if they feel that it's been significantly undergraded but, needless to say, they will leave it in the holder if they agree with the grading or if they feel that it's been overgraded. Collectors and dealers have been ripping coins out of TPG holders for many years and then resubmitting them in the hopes of obtaining the grade that they feel is appropriate. It's going to start happening with TPG bank notes too, if it hasn't started already .....
In my opinion, it's totally impossible for two sets of grading standards, i.e., one very strict (Canadian) and one very lax (American) to coexist and flourish side by side in the long term. Most unfortunately, the natural human instinct to want to make a profit will ultimately lead to victory of the laxer system over the stricter system and one has only to look at the results of the latest Torex auction (in which virtually all notes were graded by PMG) to confirm this observation.
{http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-1/1293040/PMG-64.jpg}
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I recently had two consecutive 1954 $5 Beattie Coyne DF notes that I parted with.....
One being graded by BCS as a Ch UNC 63 Original and the other graded by PMG
as a 66 with EPQ designation. Both notes were originally purchased through Don Olmstead many, many, many, years ago as original unc.
The PMG note was bought for $550 and the BCS was bought for $450, both to a US buyer that never heard of BCS. He clearly said that he will be sending the BSC note to PMG in hopes that it to will grade a 66 EPQ as did its consecutive partner.
I think that this example clearly shows that no matter what you want to say or think of PMG as a TPG it still is more recognized and demands a greater price according to many dealers I speak too. As for me, I believe that both notes where as close to being the same as they could be grade wise and felt that the 63 was low, but this is only my opinion.
FRIEDSQUID
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I recently had two consecutive 1954 $5 Beattie Coyne DF notes that I parted with ..... One being graded by BCS as a Ch UNC 63 Original and the other graded by PMG as a 66 with EPQ designation. Both notes were originally purchased through Don Olmstead many, many, many, years ago as orignal unc. The PMG note was bought for $550 and the BCS was bought for $450, both to a US buyer that never heard of BCS. He clearly said that he will be sending the BSC note to PMG in hopes that it to will grade a 66 EPQ as did its consecutive partner. I think that this example clearly shows that no matter what you want to say or think of PMG as a TPG it still is more recognized and demands a greater price according to many dealers I speak to. As for me, I believe that both notes were as close to being the same as they could be grade wise and felt that the 63 was low, but this is only my opinion. FRIEDSQUID
That's a very interesting comparison involving clear scientific data and a logical interpretation.
I agree in spades that notes graded by PMG (and by PCGS) will always attract vigorous bidding from US collectors, and will consequently attract higher prices, despite the laxer American grading standards. Surely it's only a matter of time until American (PMG/PCGS) grading standards are widely accepted in Canada, following which the Canadian (Charlton) standards will be forced to merge with the American standards? This is an important issue now that Canadian paper money is such big business in the US. It doesn't really matter which system dominates (strict or lax) but surely for the good of everyone concerned there is room for only one single grading system within North America? Without naming any names, numerous Canadian dealers, Canadian eBay sellers and Canadian auctioneers are now using PMG and PCGS so the writing seems to be on the proverbial wall ... "If you can't beat 'em, then join 'em !"
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It is sad that this will be the case. But I guess that is the American way of things.
It's close enough to GEM UNC so we will call it that.
Its like going to buy a brand new car. You pick it up after you pay for it and notice scratches. One on the hood and one on the trunk to which the dealer says. "Ahhh don't worry.. its BRAND New MINT". "You gotta expect some small defects. Its NEW never been used"
Its just sad that one company has this power to influence the TPG system so much. I guess that's capitalism for ya..lol.
Now I am not saying all notes graded from PMG have issues but there have been more and more that just aren't GEMs.
I personally think a note with UNC+ Grade is a beautiful thing. UNC, CUNC, GUNC are just way to make a note worth more in my opinion. My only concern would be buying an UNC note but really it should be an AU.
Lower grades don't matter as much cause AU+ is where the $$$ is at.
I wonder if BCS will allow us to send back all our previously graded notes if things change down the road. Lol.. maybe some of my AU's and UNCs will become UNC's and CUNCs..
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I wonder if BCS will allow us to send back all our previously graded notes if things change down the road. Lol..
I'm sure they will...they love repeat customers LOL
But you will be charged....with no guarantees
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Well guys,
I am looking at possibly getting a bunch of my Journey Notes graded by BCS.
What has everyone's recent experiences been with them? They have a Journey Special on at $7.00 a note.
Is it worth it? Does it make it easier to sell a note? As a buyer, would you prefer a BCS Graded note vs a non-graded note if you had 2 presented to you that looked roughly the same grade? What about PMG Grading.... Is everyone starting to lean that way cause that is what collectors prefer?
As I have been out of the inner circle for over a year now I would like to hear from you and your thoughts!
Thank You! :)
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Hello X-Savior
I just had 50 notes done by BCS. They were almost all Journey notes. There were 2 reasons why i had them done. The first is because I have started to sell some of my notes online and wanted to make sure i was giving potential buyers a correct grade. Allot of my notes that i thought were Gem came back Ch.Unc and some that i thought were "Original" came back as not. I also now know who presses notes and sells them online....i know who not to buy from now :o The second reason is because i believe people will pay a little more for a correctly graded note. The buyer not being able to see the note in person and buying it on someones opinion may get less $$ overall.
I purchased a PMG note online and when i received it the note had pencil writing on it that couldn't be seen in the pictures. There was no mention on the PMG holder....it doesn't seem like that grader took time to do the job right. My opinion is that BCS did a great job on my notes and i recommend them.
Thanx
Ian
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BCS = Colonial Acres Coins... they are selling notes "certified" in-house... by definition, this is NOT third-party-grading... Colonial Acres Coins PROFITS from the higher grades assigned to notes they sell... comments ?
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That is not correct at all. BCS is NOT Colonial Acres. They occupy the same office space, and the owner of BCS is an employee of Colonial Acres, but they are two separate businesses. I personally know the owner of BCS, and I know his grading to be very accurate, even if a little on the conservative side. The vast majority of notes offered for sale are not in BCS holders (or any other TPG for that matter).
Also, speaking from experience, I was selling several notes to Colonial Acres a few months ago, both raw notes, and a couple that were graded by BCS. The buyer was Steve Bell (acting on behalf of Colonial). He purchased a few raw notes and was interested in a few of the BCS-graded notes, but instead of purchasing them, he left them with me and sent over Todd Sandham to make the purchase. This is an example of how attentive Steve is to avoiding any perceptions of impropriety or conflicts of interest between his two roles.
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I personally know the owner of BCS, and I know his grading to be very accurate, even if a little on the conservative side.
The question I have is... do you know it to be accurate... or believe it to be accurate according to your personal grading standards since obviously everyone has their own opinions. We all know mistakes have been made in the past and those grades will not be changed, regardless of the true condition of the note....it happens
As for grading on the conservative (or cautious) side, does this mean that notes are undergraded? If so, in my opinion this definitely doesn't help the owner of the note when trying to sell it.
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Semantics.... Very well, I'll reword that sentence to say "...and in my opinion, his grading is very accurate..."
If you don't like undergraded notes, perhaps you should stick with one of the American TPGs where you can consistently get overgraded notes. Or, if you really want, I can start a grading company and offer you some ridiculously overgraded notes. How about an UNC-66 with tears and grease smudges? Don't worry though, it's a certified UNC-66 so you can sell it for even more than what is listed in the catalogue for G.Unc! Want that elusive "perfect note"? Just send me anything that BCS ranks as VG-8 or better and I'll add 70 points to the grade! How's that for helping the seller?
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If you don't like undergraded notes,
So are you saying that BCS undergardes notes?
I'm sure you know of a BCS graded note that is a joke if it were graded properly
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I just checked what I wrote, both posts, and I did not say that BCS undergrades notes. Oh wait, technically I just did say that, if of course you ignore the rest of the sentence.
PS: Who is BSC?
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PS: Who is BSC?
I guess I was so excited about the new Brent Service de Certicification ;D
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As BWJM stated, and I would like to reiterate, BCS and Colonial Acres Coins are two separate companies. Yes, the owner of BCS is also an employee of Colonial Acres Coins, and yes, they are located in the same plaza in Kitchener, but they are two completely separate entities, both legally and in practice. Colonial Acres coins does not get special treatment what-so-ever, and I would like to specifically mention that no higher grades are assigned to pieces that Colonial Acres Coins submits. The statement “BCS = Colonial Acres Coins” is completely incorrect, without any argument or foundation to support it.
If you have any follow-up questions, please feel free ask.
BCS
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I guess the obstacle we face with grading notes is that it's subjective to a certain point and that certain point is really the issue. The only thing that will keep a grading company in business is if the overall consensus of people buying these notes agree more then they disagree.
I've said this before and i will mention it again
I believe that grading companies should be responsible for their grading. If they made a mistake they can pay for the loss but on the flip side maybe this would make graders consistently under grade.
All we can do is not buy notes from graders who consistently over grade notes and have them go out of business. As buyers this is the only way that i know we can have our voices heard.
MG
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I believe that grading companies should be responsible for their grading
I don't think that this will ever happen and the best you would likely ever get is a refund on the cost of grading that note...
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If you have any followup questions, please feel free ask.
BCS
Hi BCS
I want to start by say that when i look at buying notes when i do see your name on the holder i do feel much more comfortable about my decision because it's all i have to go by if i don't have the notes in my hands. I recently bought a few notes (They were not cheap) and i was very happy to see who graded them.
My question is ( again) sorry if i keep repeating myself.
Are you able to guarantee your grading and stand behind every note that you grade?
I admit that this request is purely selfish from my side maybe, you could clarify if this is even possible and if not why it isn't. Maybe getting a response from yourself could clarify obstacles you face in doing so.
Thank you
MG
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I split off a few replies that got a bit too far off-topic. You can find them here: (link (http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/forum/index.php?topic=9874.0))
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As a serious banknote collector, I would like to state that BCS is by far the most reliable grading service for Canadian Banknotes.
I have personally seen Steve Bell work along side several collectors in order to ensure that his grading is accurate for each Bank note series (ie; Chartered/Journey).
I would like all of the collectors on the forums to feel confident that BCS will provide a prompt, professional and reliable service. I will continue to use BCS for my primary grading service for my Canadian Bank Notes.
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As a serious banknote collector, I would like to state that BCS is by far the most reliable grading service for Canadian Banknotes.
I have personally seen Steve Bell work along side several collectors in order to ensure that his grading is accurate for each Bank note series (ie; Chartered/Journey).
I would like all of the collectors on the forums to feel confident that BCS will provide a prompt, professional and reliable service. I will continue to use BCS for my primary grading service for my Canadian Bank Notes.
I agree entirely. Canadian notes should be graded and priced according to Canadian grading standards.
Unfortunately, real Canadian grading standards (i.e., Charlton and BCS) are so tight relative to American standards that many people are removing notes from BCS holders and resubmitting them to PMG and PCGS because, generally speaking, they will end up getting anywhere from a 3 to 10 point grading enhancement. The biggest grading enhancement I have personally witnessed concerned a BCS EF-45 (not original) being transformed into a PCGS AU-58 PPQ, as reported in the following thread:
http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/forum/index.php?topic=9632.0
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WOW. I seem to have touched a nerve in a few people. My intention was strictly to bring to light the fact that right now Colonial Acres has 40 notes advertised on eBay as BCS certified, with numerical grades, which I believe violates listing policy (but don't get me started on EBay.CA disqualification of Canadian services).
- remember, TPG stands for THIRD Party Graded
- as stipulated by others, "the owner of BCS is an employee of Colonial Acres"
- this fact IN AND OF ITSELF negates the value (even if just in appearance) of BCS as "unbiased"
I stand by my original observation, "they are selling notes 'certified' in-house. By definition, this is NOT third-party-grading. Colonial Acres Coins PROFITS from the higher grades assigned to notes they sell."
- What I was attempting to solicit were comments/opinions on RETAILERS selling "in-house" graded notes as TPG certified, as opposed to questioning the grading service. That’s a lot of pressure on a young man to perform to his employer’s benefit (even if not deliberately). Old adage, “the appearance of impropriety is tantamount to impropriety itself.”
comments ? ON RETAILERS SELLING NOTES GRADED IN-HOUSE BY EMPLOYEES AS TPG CERTIFIED ?
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OOPS. Forgot to mention re BCS's post above, "The statement “BCS = Colonial Acres Coins” is completely incorrect, without any argument or foundation to support it" yet, also states, "the owner of BCS is also an employee of Colonial Acres Coins"
and "they are located in the same plaza in Kitchener" is somewhat misleading. Fact is you have to enter Colonial Acres to access BCS. You can not get to BCS except by going through Colonial Acres. Their space is one in the same. BCS might (maybe) sub-lease 12 square feet from Colonial Acres for a desk with chair, but there is only ONE storefront.
vimstd
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In my "Opinion" the only place I will be sending my notes for Grading is BCS. I am totall agreement with Oil..
BCS I good in my books. They use the Charlton Standard of Grading which is great.
I have had 2 notes which were "Mislabeled" come back from BCS. (No Mention of Radar) Steven Bell quickly responded and I sent them back. They were done and corrected and sent back free of charge. All within a FEW Days.
Try and do that with a American Company.. you will be waiting a long time I am sure.
As for BCS being in Colonial Acres.... And your point is?
You think BCS Overgraded notes to sell for Colonial? I don't think so. I have purchased several notes from Colonial acres and they are graded correctly "In my Opinion".
If more people would finally embrace BCS and at least give them a try I am sure you would be pleased.
Then maybe Steven Bell would be making enough money to get his own "Shop" and quit working at Colonial Acres.
In case anyone cares... BCS Does have a special on until September $7 a note to be graded. I am planning on sending a bunch of notes in a couple weeks.
I am sure I will be pleased with BCS's "Opinion" of my notes.
And This http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/forum/index.php?topic=9632.0 is the reason I won't touch an American TPG Note ever. :)
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RETAILERS SELLING NOTES GRADED IN-HOUSE BY EMPLOYEES AS TPG CERTIFIED ?
Yes, that would be wrong.
As far as BCS and CAC goes, I'm satisfied they are 2 separate entities. Whatever arrangement they have to share space, is their business. If I was to guess, when BCS is grading notes, he's not on the CAC clock. When he is on CAC time, he's not grading notes for BCS. This guess is solely based on good business practice only, for both BCS and CAC. Not too many employers will let you run a small business on their time.
What concerns me is the implication that graders intentionally over grade or under grade notes for financial gain. Be careful! Think about what you are saying.
Appearances can be deceiving.
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I think my defenders have pretty much hit the nail on the head, and for that I thank them.
I (Steven Bell) am an individual who works for two separate companies, BCS and Colonial Acres Coins. This happens a lot in the world, especially if you have a such a specialized skill. The convience of us sharing the same office space does not imply that we are associated with eachother or schemeing to rip people off. Nor do my two rolls as Grader for BCS and Colonial Acres. I can assure you, Colonial Acres Coins does not get any special treatment from BCS. They are a customer of BCS just like many other dealers are.
For some reason, this person seems to think that the fact that Colonial Acres Coins having many BCS certified notes online right now is proof of our misgivings? When you think about it, it makes sense that Colonial choose BCS to certify their paper money. They know and trust the grading to be accurate and they are located so close. Makes sense to me.
On that note, I would like to say that I have taken many precausions to insure my two roles do not conflict with eachother. I do not buy BCS certified notes myself or on behalf of Colonial. I do not make the decisions as to what colonial pieces get certified. These rules are important to me because it helps maintain my integrety and image in the market place. What doesn't support my image are false statements based on suspicsion and speculation, and not a shread of evidence to back it up. Reputation is very important in this indusrty, especially for a third party grader. It could even be said that, in a way, BCS is selling it's reputation, or at least values it as a very important asset. Why would I do anything to tarnish such an important thing? I wish this person would have done his/her research before jumping to ludicrus conclusions.
Since these false statements involve Colonial Acres, I have notified the owner. I suspect he'll be as upset as I am with this unfounded accusation.
If anything needs clarifying, feel free to ask.
BCS
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WOW. I seem to have touched a nerve in a few people. My intention was strictly to bring to light the fact that right now Colonial Acres has 40 notes advertised on eBay as BCS certified, with numerical grades, which I believe violates listing policy (but don't get me started on EBay.CA disqualification of Canadian services).
- remember, TPG stands for THIRD Party Graded
- as stipulated by others, "the owner of BCS is an employee of Colonial Acres"
- this fact IN AND OF ITSELF negates the value (even if just in appearance) of BCS as "unbiased"
I stand by my original observation, "they are selling notes 'certified' in-house. By definition, this is NOT third-party-grading. Colonial Acres Coins PROFITS from the higher grades assigned to notes they sell."
- What I was attempting to solicit were comments/opinions on RETAILERS selling "in-house" graded notes as TPG certified, as opposed to questioning the grading service. That’s a lot of pressure on a young man to perform to his employer’s benefit (even if not deliberately). Old adage, “the appearance of impropriety is tantamount to impropriety itself.”
comments ? ON RETAILERS SELLING NOTES GRADED IN-HOUSE BY EMPLOYEES AS TPG CERTIFIED ?
I guess it comes down to "know your client" and "know your grader".
The actions of Steve Bell do not show any conflict of interest with regards to his character or the integrity of his business with relation to CAC. I base this from everything I have ever known or had been informed on regarding his character since I entered the hobby in a serious way 5 years ago. Others who have been around much longer can probably attest to his integrity and objectives.
When an activity appears as something that would contradict ALL other directives taken by an individual, it would be unreasonable to assume that the one thing appearing as an anomaly is the actual "full characteristic" of a person/entity.
To me, assuming that sort of thing sounds a bit journalistic. Almost Tabloid ish.
To those that know S.B. (admittedly, I do not know him too well, however, the gospels of him spoken to me have been 100% non-contradictory), they know that his highest interest is maintaining the integrity of his business and the hobby, for he could have just as easily loosened up his grading for immense financial gain. The fact that he has stayed true to the Charlton Standard speaks very very loudly.
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Hear! Hear!
I think we can safely end this discussion here. The odd post has strayed a little too close to some potentially libelous remarks, so in the interests of keeping this discussion clean and not beating the matter to death, I'm going to hit the "lock" button.
Thanks all for your participation, and thank you to BCS and Colonial Acres for taking the criticism in stride (and in context) and responding in a mature and appropriate manner.