CPM Forum
General => General Forum Comments => Topic started by: Bitburger on July 17, 2005, 03:20:42 pm
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I was very disappointed by the Charlton Catalogue this year, not because it is ugly (what I think it is), but because Charlton Catalogue has not changed enough during the following years. the way we are collecting paper money has been developed with Internet and If Charlton does not take another "Modern" way for his Catalogue, I am not sure there are going to survive still 5 years, if they don't furnish an updated Catalogue Online ( with fees and membership). Charlton should be able to fix prices according to the market every 3 months minimum. If they don't I won't be surprise in 2 or 3 years them losing to be " the reference" if Paper money collectors or coins collectors start Something else. That's what I believe. Charlton in that way dig out his own grave. We will have as Collector to wait ONE YEAR before knowing prices for important bills like BEL, BEP, BET, AZN, all new inserts FER, FEV, BEV and more, that's just not normal...
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Bitburger wrote today:
Charlton Catalogue has not changed enough during the following years. the way we are collecting paper money has been developed with Internet and If Charlton does not take another "Modern" way for his Catalogue,
That's exactly what one forum member here, also a long time CPMS member & Contributor, has suggested to Charlton's board, thru Bob, over the past year along with other constructive ideas.
Hopefully with Chuck Moore retiring the chair, the incoming President would like to take some action, rather than making the usual respond of "Under consideration"?
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Bitburger, I heartily agree with you...
I've often wondered why Charlton's doesn't go online. Most of the information about banknote series prior to the current series remains more or less static year over year - virtually only the prices change in their annual editions.
I would love to be able to subscribe to "Charlton's Online" and simply pay an annual fee and then be able to log in to look up information (which would hopefully be updated at least quarterly rather than annually). The website could also have a feature that lets you pull a pdf version of the catalogue so that you can also print off a hard copy if you want one.
For those collectors who are not "wired" or don't have computers at home, Charlton's could do like my bank does:
We have our "bible" - our "Policies & Procedures" manual - that employees refer to. Rather than killing forests of trees issuing entire manuals each year, the manual exists in a three-ring binder format and as updates are necessary, we simply replace only those pages that have changed.
Like the online counterpart of the catalogue, the loose-leaf packages could also be put out on a quarterly basis, where you can either buy the update packages from a coin dealer, or you can subscribe for paper-based updates as you would a TV Guide subscription - pay an annual fee and then Charlton's mails the updates to you.
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That's some very good suggestions, venga 50.
We were given to understand that in fact, the ideas mentioned above, among other suggestions, have been proposed & tabled over the past years.
Even the outgoing chair has reportedly had some discussions with an active Administration of our forum, but looks like no final decisions have been make to this point....
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I've often wondered why Charlton's doesn't go online.
[...]
I would love to be able to subscribe to "Charlton's Online" and simply pay an annual fee and then be able to log in to look up information (which would hopefully be updated at least quarterly rather than annually). The website could also have a feature that lets you pull a pdf version of the catalogue so that you can also print off a hard copy if you want one.
The idea has been under consideration by the Charlton Press for several months, according to a very reliable, but unnamed source.
Rather than killing forests of trees issuing entire manuals each year, the manual exists in a three-ring binder format and as updates are necessary, we simply replace only those pages that have changed.
The main problem here is that nearly every page has some change made due to the pricing.
Rest assured, the publisher is aware of the issues at hand and they are considering many options.
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Brente,
Since you are, we assume, speaking on behalf of the Charlton's, could you share with us more regarding its conderation on this project ?
Don
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No, I am not speaking on behalf of Charltons and I make no attempt to. I am merely rephrasing what has been hinted to me from a reliable source. I know no more than what I have said.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, all comments should be interpreted as my own opinions and never being said on behalf of any third party. I do not work for Charltons, nor am I a representative of them.
You know what they say about when you assume....
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yet, we are asked to rest assured, by whom ?
you mean assume authority ?
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yet, we are asked to rest assured, by whom ?
you mean assume authority ?
Naw, this is something I saw in a Benny Hill episode. The saying is "when you assume, you make an ass out of u and me" [as he says this, in the word "assume" he has written on a blackboard, Benny circles the ass, then the u and then the me].
But in a recent Becker episode, the saying gets muddled up on purpose, and the receptionist [Linda, if you know this show] says "when you assume, you make an ass out of me".
You decide which version BWJM meant (unless of course there is a third version I don't know about and BWJM meant something else ;))
Cheers,
venga50.
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yet, we are asked to rest assured, by whom ?
you mean assume authority ?
Well, if you really desire to get technical about it, let's say that *I* *suggested* that you rest assured based on the hints that I have paraphrased to you.
Regarding assuming anything, see venga50's post (the first part). In essence, when you make an assumption about something, you are setting yourself up for a problem. Here, you assumed that I was speaking on behalf of Charltons, which I was not. There was no reason to make such an assumption because I clearly stated in my post "according to a very reliable, but unnamed source." Going even further, you cannot reasonably assume that this source is speaking on behalf of Charltons. The most you can assume is that he or she has some sort of inside knowledge. (This, by the way, is not necessarily the case).
Lesson: don't make assumptions.
Jeez, everybody always overreacts to any little thing that gets said here. What happens if I go "Boo!"? Is someone going to file a complaint that I caused them undue mental anguish?
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[...]Jeez, everybody always overreacts to any little thing that gets said here. What happens if I go "Boo!"? Is someone going to file a complaint that I caused them undue mental anguish?
Actually, by your very typing of the word, one could argue that you did indeed go "Boo!". You will be hearing from my lawyer shortly... ;) ;D
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Actually, by your very typing of the word, one could argue that you did indeed go "Boo!". You will be hearing from my lawyer shortly... ;) ;D
Somebody get him out of here... ::) ::) ;)
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Somebody get him out of here... ::) ::) ;)
I'd be very careful if I were you, monsieur. However I may yet be persuaded to accept an out-of-court settlement: tell me how much an UNC 1972 $5 in either signature is going for in Charlton's 18th ed., and I'll forget the trauma your "Boo!"-ing has caused me.
Now, if you had said "BOO!" instead of "Boo!" you would surely have been doomed...I had hired Bitburger to represent me, and your diplomatic immunity in 46 countries (including Puerto Rico) would have been to no avail! We also would have had you prosecuted for providing sanctuary to a heinous criminal unparalleled in the annals of crime for his ruthless defacement of paper money.
Ah, what the hell...
[size=8] :oBOO!!!:o[/size]
There, now we're even 8)
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OK, I'll shut up now and get back on topic...
BWJM, you said that the loose-leaf binder idea couldn't work because
The main problem here is that nearly every page has some change made due to the pricing.
This occurred to me as I was proposing the idea and nearly prevented me from suggesting it...but could the prices not be arranged in the binder such that all of the prices are isolated into a continuous tabulated list and cross-referenced to the body of the catalogue?
Anyway, I don't care much about having a binder version; I would much prefer the online option.
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could the prices not be arranged in the binder such that all of the prices are isolated into a continuous tabulated list and cross-referenced to the body of the catalogue?
This occurred to me as I was proposing the idea and nearly prevented me from suggesting it... ;D
Short answer: yes.
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The book will never disappear. Even with all the changes in the way media is delivered to us, people love their books.
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The market establishes itself. This catalogue much like the Charlton Coin or Trends is nothing more than a guide.
I see the problem to be more in the area that The Charlton Standard for grading and pricing paper money is inaccurate and out-dated. This has been the case for some years now. Because of the resistance to change on the part of Charlton or those that chair it, coupled with a hot market you are seeing a ridiculous amount of over-graded crap flooding the market at inflated prices. Much of it by "respected" dealers. This along with the reluctance to accept any deviation from the "standard" grading of Canadian bank notes, such as 3rd party certification services is going to damage the hobby in the long term. Course eventually the old schoolers will all die and then change can perhaps commence.
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Charlton does not set the grading standards for banknotes. The Canadian Paper Money Society does. Check the front of your Charlton guide for confirmation.
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Good topic, lots of jest going on.
The Charlton Catalogue is published, as you are all aware, yearly. The prices are stale when the book finally gets into people's hands, only because it take time to add the new prices, and time to print it and time to distribute the book. The numbering system is neat, the breakdowns of numbers made are well done, and the high-low serial numbers known are accurate at the time of publication. It ends up being the paper money bible each year.
An attempt to put trends on line was rejected (for now) by the publisher. It is not thought to be able to generate enough money. The majority of the money made at CCN is from ads, not sales of the newspaper. I like the idea of trends on line, with changes made bi-weekly. A book of paper or a book of tokens or coins on line would be a good source of constant changing information, but not necessarily a good source of revenue. It is the money thing right now, but perhaps that can be worked out in the future.
Rick
CCN trends editor
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Charlton does not set the grading standards for banknotes. The Canadian Paper Money Society does. Check the front of your Charlton guide for confirmation.
I'm aware of who sets the grading standards for the Charlton Catalogue. I think I covered that to some degree in the balance of my initial post. However, we are afterall Canadian with the built in resistance to change that is inherently Canadian.
Times have changed though and not everyone has been collecting paper money since the 1950's :D
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Because of the resistance to change on the part of Charlton or those that chair it, coupled with a hot market you are seeing a ridiculous amount of over-graded crap flooding the market at inflated prices.
I'm not sure I follow this statement. Charlton isn't online, so how does that cause rampant over-grading?
Are you saying that the grading standards need to change because people are abusing it? Do you really think that 5 levels of UNC and 50 some odd lower grades would HELP the hobby? Is their a reason that third party graders can't use the existing system instead of making up their own? People are abusing the grading system because of GREED and because they lack INTEGRETY. I fail to understand how the grading system is to blame, nor do I understand how it is somehow Charlton's fault.
Rick has nailed it, if Charlton can't make money at it, why should they go online? I have thought of doing something like Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page) where we could keep our own "tends" online, there are a host of very real issues with it.
You've no doubt seen that arguments we have here on the forum when it's just talk. Can you imagine what happens when I, as a seller, change the value of note up high, and you, as buyer, change the value of the note down low and now we're fighting about money? You think the people who already let their greed overpower their integrity are going to pass up the opportunity to abuse that too?
With Charlton publishing a paper book once a year, you get well researched, well considered, relivent information. It’s not instantaneous, but for that kind of action, I would suggest the commodities markets at the TSE.
And while Wikipedia may someday put the Encyclopaedia Britannia out of business, I assure you, I won’t be doing the same to Charlton. It takes a lot of time and effort to make a “Charlton” book happen, and we struggle to just keep this forum open and running.
Having information “now” and “for free” sounds all good and dandy, until you figure out that somebody, somewhere still has to do the work, and they become targets for abuse by those who don’t contribute.
But enough of my rantings…
It's like they say, “it’s always about the money”. Those with the information want to get paid for their years of work gaining the knowledge, those without the information, want the knowledge for free and they want it now.
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Paul,
I never mentioned Charlton being on-line anywhere in my post so no idea what you're on about there. However, since you brought it up, personally I think it'd be useless and costly, besides I like the paper version. I do afterall collect paper ;D
Now I do apologize if I ruffled a feather, or in your case apparently the entire bird in respect to grading standards being out of date. That wasn't my intention. Let's be honest though, if the standards set forth by the CPMS in respect to grading were strictly adhered to, we'd all own what? Maybe 3 rarer notes each? Granted, those that have been collecting since WWI probably do have exceptional notes but the fact is, the market has changed , many notes are simply not available in AU let alone Unc so it stands to reason that both the CPMS and the catalogue that uses them could perhaps offer up a little more information when it comes to grading and the subjectivity of it along with more realistic prices in the EF-AU grades.
Personally I don't care what grading standards are assigned by the CPMS or any 3rd party service, when I sell a note I deal in the $ grade. As in that's a $1500.00 grade regardless what Charlton, CCGS, NGC, PCGS or Dear Abby has to say about it.
That being said, you brought up greed. Of course greed has a lot to do with over-grading. Couple that with the fact that a large majority of people who collect notes don't really know how to grade one and you have a marriage made in heaven. People who look but don't see or see only what they want to see and those that are more than willing to blind em. I hold the latter in more contempt and frankly, they're a cancer to the business and the hobby of collecting bank notes is big business
Charlton, by keeping the price spreads between EF-AU and AU-Unc so ridiculously high contribute unwittingly to this.
No matter, the old school dealers and the new school Internet hustlers have the most to lose by change but as with everything, change will come.
I'm getting a little tired of buying paper money collections from people-many of them "knowledgeable" and patiently explaining to them that the bags under George VI's eyes aren't a "variety", they're there because he's been worked harder than an urchin from "Oliver Twist" or that any Monarch would have a tear coming from their eye if they'd been pressed as hard as the one on the note had been.
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Travsy, I know I'd be mad if some strange guy tried to ruffle my bird! [My only corny joke for this post, I promise!] ;)
I must agree with you that too many collectors seem to be stubbornly reluctant to move ahead with the times, citing the difficulties that Charlton's would have in implementing any required changes to meet the changing needs and desires of the collecting community. Based on some of the replies under this topic, and from what I've seen elsewhere in the forum, it seems that we're always tip-toeing around Charlton's and/or the CPMS for fear of disturbing or offending them!
Charlton's should be serving paper money collectors, not vice-versa. We need to break out of the mindset that ideas should be shelved by the collecting community as "not feasible" if Charlton's tells us so. If Charlton's (and possibly even the CPMS for that matter) cannot accommodate the evolving needs and wants of collectors, then perhaps they should not be our "standard" any more. Charlton's is merely a tool - if you find that you've got the wrong tool for the job, the logical thing to do is to put the wrong tool away and get the RIGHT tool. You don't keep trying to put in a nail with a screwdriver. Charlton's used to be a very good hammer but it is slowly, or maybe not so slowly, turning into a screwdriver.
That being said, I still believe Charlton's to be the best guide currently available to us paper money collectors - it is still the "bible" that I foresee myself using for years to come. But being the "best available" or "good enough" does not necessarily mean that vast improvements are not sorely needed.
I disagree with Travsy that an online version would be useless and costly...in addition to charging subscribers for subscriptions/renewals to their online services, Charlton's could also make TONS of revenue by selling advertising space in their catalogue or on a future website. Presumably, if someone can afford to drop $6,000 for an UNC 1954 $1 *V/V note, that someone may have just a little extra disposable income...just the sort of people that BMW, Mercedes, People's Jewellers, Harry Rosen, realtors, investment dealers, etc etc would love to meet! Not that I want to be bombarded with annoying pop-up ads...but I'm sure that Charlton's could work with the advertisers so that their "pitches" are not too intrusive.
To cite an example of an online delivery method, I am taking the Canadian Securities Course online. Naturally there is a textbook for this course. You can either pay an extra $70 to buy the book, or you can download a pdf version for free and view it on-screen using Adobe Acrobat. You could print off a hard copy of the entire book - so it doesn't appear that the authors of the CSC text are too concerned about students going into business for themselves downloading and selling textbooks in competition with the copies that are selling for $70.
In my marketing courses, the golden rule was "the customer is king". Let's try to remember that - we are not the servants of Charlton's. Charlton's exists to serve us: we are paying $20 for their book. In return, that book should meet our needs. Charlton's had better get with the times or else another "standard guide" is sure to emerge, sooner or later.
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Unless I am sitting in front of a computer, an online catalogue would serve no real purpose to me. Of course we are not slaves to the Charlton, but at the same time, it is the standard in which prices are guided by (remember there are many of us who contribute). A downloadable version of some sort would be nice, but I know when I am on the road, or in a bank, or driving around and need a read at a red light, I LOVE to have the paper copy of the catalogue. I keep it in the car, in my backpack, and on the toilet tank in the bathroom... all places I do not have a computer (although that would really be nice sometimes ;) )
Anyway, I love the book, and I hate to see it bashed. - Added July 25th: I don't realy think anyone is actually bashing the book - but I really couldn't think of another way of saying that I wish people would support the book either way. (Even if they still would use e-version.)
For the record, I did my IFIC in the same fashion, on line, but I still had to print it off. Personal preference, but I can't stand reading off a computer for along time.
Maybe you could scan the pages and put them on a website with permission, and put a link up? Is that an option for anyone?
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I am not bashing Charlton's either; I'm just saying that they need to be more flexible and more quick to adapt to changing needs or they are in serious peril of becoming hopelessly obsolete.
My earlier posts recommend an online AND maintaining a print version of Charlton's so that the possibility of a current user being "left out" is minimal.
I actually forked out the $70 for the CSC text (well, my employer did anyway) - I prefer a tangible textbook as well. I'm glued to a computer all day at work, so that is enough. But earlier posts by other people suggested that an online version of Charlton's wouldn't work out because unscrupulous people would download the online information and sell it to others. Hudson, would you have been able to do this with your IFIC, as I could have with the CSC?
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Maybe you could scan the pages and put them on a website with permission, and put a link up? Is that an option for anyone?
Getting permission from the publisher (any publisher) to do this would be nearly impossible, and doing so without permission is a slam-dunk copyright violation that will easily get you sued. Just some advice before someone tries it.
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To put a book on line, or prices on line, or trends on line requires a person to monitor the prices, and do the actual work. At least one full day every two weeks.
As people don't work for free, the cost would be about $200 each bi-weekly period.
On top of that, a web site is needed, computers, programs, cable connection. The cost of this is about $4000 each year.
Total about $9000 per year, and then the extra costs of converting a "book" to electronic methods, and one still needs to print the book first.
Publishing a book about Canadian paper money has a very limited market, 20,000 copies is a big run, 10,000 is more likely.
The book at under $20 barely shows a profit. Electronic sales would reduce the number of books sold, and it would be difficult to keep a handle on the number distributed and even harder to collect the money.
Lets say that 5000 people subscribe to the book on line, with bi-weekly price changes. Sales of the book drop to 5000 units.
Just doing the math, The book costs $1,000,000 annually to produce, and with sales and discounts, and shipping & handling and dealer discounts, perhaps makes $50,000 per year. Throw away half the sales, the book now loses money each year. Add the costs of the on line book, A cost of $250 to $500 per subscription would be necessary to retain the income level for the producer, with no guarantee of profits at all.
I have found the collectors will buy the book, carry it with them everywhere, and write all sorts of stuff inside it to keep the updates.
From discussing doing such a thing with CCN, it was deemed not financially proper right now. One simply can not give the information away, and most people are not interested in paying $200-400 per year (for a Numismatic publication), nor would they likely pay that much for an on line paper money book.
Many people expect computer information to be free, it is not. Fewer again are willing to pay for information.
Some large companies with limited publications, and a large budget, do publish certain journals and make them available on line. If one looks at the really big guys, like General Electric or Proctor and Gamble, even their on line stuff is pretty much nothing more than advertising.
Conclusion, it is not cost effective to put a paper money book (on a small market) on line to fulfill the wishes of some. If Charlton's (Bill Cross), or Trajan Publishing thought it was profitable, it would be done. Until then, it won't.
Rick
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Bitburger, thank you for introducing this topic! These are the types of debates I love! I have really enjoyed this topic because thus far, we have presented sometimes conflicting points of view without disrespecting each other.
Rick's point is well-taken in that perhaps there is not (yet) a large enough market to warrant an online version at this time.
I'm just hoping that Charlton's finds the online version economically viable in the near future...
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I have history of openly and publicly challenging some of the logic contained in the extremely important Charlton guide and I have also contemplated the effort involved to accomplish what is being suggested in this thread and I both agree and disagree with various portions of Rick's last post.
I submit that under-stated were the effort and most importantly the cost involved to bring the catalogue online and maintain it in a way that the project will have sustainable credibility and viability. All one has to do is build an ecommerce company or venture (larger than the typical ma and pa one) to get a handle on just how much initial forecasts can be off, IT cost analysis is quite complex.
I do not follow the math presented either. If the book costs $1m to produce then how does it survive at 10,000-20,000 copies sold at $10-$20 a unit depending on the size of the order? That is less than $400,000 in total sales under ideal conditions. I buy my books at about $10 each and 50 at a time.
Given the huge impact the Internet is having on the market (and more so every day) I believe the pricing panel needs to be expanded to add further credibility to the guide and provide some much needed forward thinking, in terms of how the guide needs to present itself on the market from every aspect. The market is more dynamic than ever and it is a critical time for those involved with the Charlton Guide to take some evolutionary steps.
Increased profit should be the goal and result of the evolution for Charlton so long as the steps taken are what the majority of the CDN Paper market wants/needs and is following or just slightly ahead of its markets evolutionary ways.
Troy
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Sensitive bunch here. :o
I fail to see where anyone "bashed" Charlton and as for grading, well, whatever. Things will change.
The Charlton Catalogue is a good thing to have around but if anyone uses it as their "bible" when going after rarer accurately graded notes, good luck to you.
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I don't agree with those that say Charlton's won't make money with an Online Catalogue.
I will take an example. Wine Spectator Magazine. Charlton's should take one's inspiration from Wine Spectator Magazine. They still sell their magazines but you can suscribe online, if you want too. It costs 49,95$ US a years to see articles online. 50% Off if you are a member. There is a lot of information every weeks on wines, food novelty that you don't find in the REAL magazine. I receive my magazine at home and I can log myself to the website if I want. Imagine, if Charlton's guide would do the same with the CPMS help...60$ Can dollars for a years. 50% OFF if you are a CPMS member, you would have access to all new updates every months with several articles wrote by CPMS members...a sort of fusion between CPMS newletters and Charlton's guide, add to that few sponsors like Coins shops, Ebay dealers, Unitrade plastic protection and you are in buisness...I don't see where the problem is? Put a charlton's guide online for 60$ a year. I will suscribe tomorrow morning, like Travsy said, I don't worry people buying UNC 2$ 1935 French for 6000$ and driving two BMW not being able to pay 60$ a year... If Charlton's don't change soon, it will be for Canadians like the Eaton's Catalogue, just a souvenir...
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I would like something else. Perhabs people think that I am bashing the Charlton's, what I am not doing. On the contrary, I am defending Paper Money collectors. Just Imagine a couple of dealers ( and not necessairly those we want) that invest few bucks in a Website Online and trying to boot Charlton's butt. If they furnish a best service than Charlton's Catalogue I won't be surprised to see Charlton and CPMS losing ground without knowing what happen to them. Who will then fix prices?? Charlton's...CPMS.We don't mind now it will be dealers! Yes it will be this NEW website...Who will follow who do you think? who will disapear? Certainly not the dealers according to me. It's time for Charlton's guide to wake up or die. My great father always said. One doesn't try to save stables while the house is burning.
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It looks like there are two schools of thoughts here. One defends the old way, because they believe the new way usually does not work. And they subcribe to the theory of if it ain't broke...
The other school advocates the new way, the e-way. They believe computer and internet have changed everything, even in a hobby in which probably more than half of the 'members' are more than 40s, and most if not all use computer and surf internet. Today, most publications have internet or e-version. It is a matter of survival for these magazines and other publications to have internet presence.
. Some people believe Charlton’s did not want to do online catalogue partly because of costs, if that is so, it is short-sighted. First, the editing and production of catalogue are done on computer to begin with, like almost everything else. Secondly, there is no such thing as high cost of putting things on internet, because the things are in your own computer. Yes, you do need to buy some softwares, so to allow people to register and pay online, but that is minute relatively speaking. The emphases of the new e-catalogue are more on technical aspects, like changeovers, new inserts, anomalies, rather than pricing trends, since in many cases the listed prices are just 'opinions' of dealers who have much to gain as prices change. If you want the prices, consult ebay.
I believe, just speculation on my part, mind you, the cost of updating is overstated.
Think of the benefits to, yes, Charlton’s. Feedback from the subscribers is instantaneous, so is the updated information. You can be sure most subscribers will still want to buy the catalogue, because online catalogue is not permanent. We love things on paper, black and white. Paper money collectors love keeping records especially the kind on paper. If Charlton’s wants to protect its sales of new catalogues it could stop updating the e-catalogue in the last 3 month prior to the publishing of new catalogue, i.e., if the new catalogue is coming out in July, Charlton’s could justifiably stop updating the e-catalogue in April so that it could concentrate on the new printed catalogue. So instead of losing money it could actually get income from 2 sources: subscription fee for e-catalogue and money for the printed catalogue. I am sure collectors are happy too because they could get updated info quickly, since there are collectors who are not part of the forum and Charlton’s must have its own inside track.
( Besides, may be , just may be, there is a two for one deal opportunity here. For those interested, collectors could save money by becoming a subscriber of this e-catalogue as well as the member of CPMS, which would have a e-newsletter replacing the current quarterly letter. (that means cpms would save money on stationary, postage and printing, because many members would rather print off the internet rather than waiting to receive the printed copy. morever, dreams really taking wings now, for those techies, they could load these into their pda's so that they could access the ecatalogue and newsletter anywhere, without printing out (save tree)
Looking ahead, being online opens the door for possible foreign sale: foreign dealers who normally won’t bother to send a cheque (for the book and postage) for a Charlton’s catalogue could easily take flyer on this ecatalogue paying online.
sweet dreams.
Don. (not an insider)
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Great post the last one, agree with the majority, not this part however.........
"there is no such thing as high cost of putting things on internet, because the things are in your own computer. Yes, you do need to buy some softwares, so to allow people to register and pay online, but that is minute relatively speaking"
I am afraid such a simplified view of the project proposed would result in a total costing estimate nightmare and overall project execution disaster.
It could very well be a viable project but a project manager and CTO like talent with deep nearly identical IT experience would be doing the cost and effort analysis for me and then that would be double checked. I have had highly qualified Waterloo and MIT CTO talents get costing estimates wrong in the past. They would have to do some homework before coming back to me with some estimates that would even begin to pass the sniff test.
Of course the Internet is considered a lower cost alternative (and nearly a must do or die evolutionary step) but there is a world of knowledge and experience that must be obtained before one can have any degree of certainty as to whether or not the project can make a net return worth the effort at this stage of the markets evolution.
Just because it hasn't been done yet is not evidence in itself that it isn't viable, this I am certain of.
If it does get off the ground, taken on by a credible team, lead by a recognizable name, I would be the 1st to make a capital investment in the venture should raising capital be required. I would however be grilling those involved before any cheques were cashed. It should also be stated that the project does not need to make a positive return in year one to be deemed successful from my point of view; profitability in year two would be the focus.
I have a few others that I could bring in as investors as well. A project like this is considered very modest and would probably fetch angel investment blocks of $10,000 to $25,000 depending on each investors interest level and piece of the pie. I would think I could raise up to the 1st $100,000 or so with my network and the rest would be the typical dog and pony show to raise the remaining capital.
Troy
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The way I see it we already have a great yearly edition of Charlton for pricing and THIS SITE for information on anything current.
You can't get more up to date than who found what and where yesterday. Lists, complete with, prefix, high and low serial numbers and location found are updated every few days. All this is FREE and available to anyone who has a computer. THANK YOU, PAUL.
One thing definately missing is minute by minute pricing. I know for sure that Paul would love to handle that. ;) :-X
As to the current pricing of the $10 BE 2003 series, as listed in Charlton, you just have to go back to the first posts on BEK, L and R and check the date. All three were first reported between Feb 24 and Mar 5. I beleive the pricing committed had a deadline of March 31. Very little was known about these notes so the pricing had to be a guess on the low side.
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Yes I would actually like to shout out a big THANK YOU to Mr. Wallis as well (among many others). This site is a wonderful place.
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:) Blush
I appologize if I mis-read the initial post. I thought it indicated Charlton should changed to "modern" ways of publication. I assumed that to be internet publishing, as they already use every modern typographical and printing tool available.
I still don't understand how a lot more grading categories helps the hobby in anyway. Calling something "ultra GEM UNC" is just silly. We've had this discussion many times before, and I still say. I disagree that UNC notes are impossible to find, though I admit that the new banding process does make it more difficult than just walking into a bank. I believe I've supported the concept of a GEM UNC and a Regular UNC, to help seperate between the "technical" UNC and the "visual" UNC (the former being notes that have special visual appeal), but it's a subjective call and you just know the Russian Judge will always argue against it. I'm still not clear what the "grading debate" and Charlton have to do with one another so I think that if this is the issue, someone should start a new thread.
As for publishing, it's not cheap. Even the Wine site derives most of it's money from advertizing and most wineries have more money for advertizing than most coin shops. This site runs "free", but I've run into money problems and a number of you have helped out with your donations. If I charged for my time from the beginning, including all the time spent on researching, learning, and rejecting possible technologies and solutions, and time spent rebuilding after some technical problem, it most definately would not be free.
If you charge an online subscription fee, you have an obligation to provide 24/7 access, complete and total backups and customized solutions and support. That's at least a full time job, and that person(s) need to eat. Yes, anyone can setup a website these days, but making it relivant, and keeping it updated is by far the bigger cost.
We could ask for advertizing dollars to support us and stick banner ads up, but 1) I hate banner ads, and 2) that would just take advertizing dollars away from CCN. I want to augment CCN and Charlton, not suplant them.
I do very much agree that there may well be better technical methods of handling that gathering of trend, pricing, and new data, but my experience with trying to bring the CPM Journal into new collaborative publishing tools turned into a frustration for both the editor and I.
I agree that there is a need for our specialty market to change and adapt, but I also think that it's premature to expect those changes to happen immediately. Competive presurres may drive it, but more likely the existing companies will self-adapt when the timing, and profitiability, are right. Me, I spend too much time on the "bleeding edge" of technolgy and I seem to get the right ideas before the time is right (www.telepix.com , www.phochron.com , www.yesvideo.ca). All great ideas and systems, but they sure are taking a long time to catch on.
As always, I'll try to keep this site current, and would LOVE to work with CCN, Charlton, and the CPMS to help move things along.
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I don't agree with you Paul that Coins Shops do not make enough money to put advertising . I don't know in Ontario, but in Quebec most of the coins shops are dealing coins, Paper money, stamps, gold, silver, jewelry and sometimes other illegal stuffs ah ahh... ;D
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I didn't say they don't do any advertizing, just that they don't spend anywhere near the same amount. I see ads on TV for local wineries, big ads in national newspapers, magazines, and the such. Never seen a coin shop advertize like that, we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars per year per winery.
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I've been away from this site for a while but it's always been nice to visit and receive an update on what's going on ! This topic has to be the most absurd debated......The "catalogue" gives general reference to the general public as a guide to values. PERIOD.
What's wrong with the general public being informed about approximate value?
Trying to post up to the moment values that are perceived but may not be real serves no value to the hobby and should be avoided to prevent the hobby being further harmed by dealers and speculators.
This should not be seen as simply a "quick value change.".......or, then again, maybe it's being driven that way....by GREED.
I always enjoyed this site when collectors exchanged views.....not dealers (and there is a difference).
;)eastguy
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Dealers deal; collectors collect...l would defy anyone to tell me of any hobby where the two identities absolutly without quivocation agree on a price....anywhere; anytime...!!
Charltons.. is a book....a reference manual if you will ... they "say" they accept input from anyone..but realistically as a publisher they are going to check sources,,,qualifications..etc etc...who better to give them a "trend" on pricing than dealers..so what you have is a "dealer" book put out to the best ability of the publisher to give a representative view of what a "price" guide should be concerning a specific item within a specific time period.. a snapshot if youwill..
Now seriously....take a common 1954 ef 5.00 modified...anyone here going to pay 12 bucks for it?? didn't think so...what...10 at the outside if its exceptional for an ef...more like 8 at best....
and who here would not mind paying 20 percent (if you had the cash) over book for an unc 1935 $25.00 French radar :D ... yah okay shut up about radars I know...
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Steve is correct. Dealers earn all or part of their income from selling numismatically related items.
Some dealers are full time at it, others are part time, many collectors sell on ebay, very few collectors don't sell at a profit all or part of their group of notes.
Most collectors are would-be dealers, and the goal is to turn a profit eventually with their collections. Nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with being a dealer.
I cannot speak for the Charlton catalogue as I am not a contributor. I can speak for trends as virtually all the input is from dealers, as am I.
Trends is the suggested retail price. It is not 100% perfect, but at least the attempt is made.
A couple of points. A "coin" show cannot succeed without dealers, collectors and an auctioneer. These three things go hand in hand. A collector cannot have much success if there are no dealers, and dealers buy most of their stock from collectors. One group cannot live without the other. One shouldn't knock any other group as all are closely related in what they do.
Profit is not a dirty word, it is the concept of a free society. Every one works for a company of some sort that turns a profit into payroll, taxes and buildings. Even churches make a profit, they don't survive for long at a loss. Governments are the only group that knowingly spend more than they earn. Profit is the largest factor of collecting. The main goal after putting together a nearly perfect collection is watching the trends or Catalogue price go up so it can eventually be sold at a profit. Auctions are made from collections, either from the collector of his/her heirs, with the hope of getting more money than was spent to acquire the collection.
Rick
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This topic has to be the most absurd debated......The "catalogue" gives general reference to the general public as a guide to values. PERIOD.
What's wrong with the general public being informed about approximate value?
Trying to post up to the moment values that are perceived but may not be real serves no value to the hobby and should be avoided to prevent the hobby being further harmed by dealers and speculators.
This should not be seen as simply a "quick value change.".......or, then again, maybe it's being driven that way....by GREED.
I always enjoyed this site when collectors exchanged views.....not dealers (and there is a difference).
1. Everything if the prices in the general guide don't accurately reflect the market. There is a difference between "approximate" and missing the boat completely.
2. There are many more collectors as well as "speculators" and "dealers" today then 5, even 2 years ago. With the explosion of the Internet accessibility to notes and buyers of notes has soared driving prices up hence the need for more accurate prices. Many collectors have become part-time dealers by default because of the growing acceptance of Internet transactions as a viable means of buying and selling.
3. Your comment about greed is partially true, accurate prices would help curtail that to a degree. To infer that only speculators and dealers are greedy is just silly.
4. As Simpson stated, it's a symbiotic relationship.
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I feel flattered to be "pharaphrased" ::).
I still miss the point. Those that collect Canadian Bank Notes other than "Government" types must wait every 6 to 7 years for a new catalogue..........how do they ever "survive" without more frequent updates? These notes tend to have their own severe price trends.
Maybe the definition of a "collector" should be "Canadian Bank Notes" and "dealers/ebayers/speculators" the label for "Canadian Government Paper Money" notes ?
I thought the "speculators/dealers" simply kept in touch with the trends such as ebay and other internet sales venues to be able to "turn a buck". I believe collectors call this "buyer beware".
Attempting to suggest some form of moment by moment price for "Canadian Government Paper Money" is absurd. PERIOD. ( Unless there is some recouping of lost taxes involved....if we want to go there).
;)eastguy
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As some of you may have seen, there were a few posts made here over the last 24 hours that have since been removed. A couple personalities clashed and a clear warning to stick with the forum rules was blatantly ignored. The matter is being dealt with in private, as it has no place in the public forums.
Let this be a warning to all: Check your egos at the door and if you have any personal problems with other people here, nobody wants to hear about them. If anything of the sort flares up, rest assured that the forum rules will be enforced. If any of the participants of this most recent spat have the nerve to rekindle their dispute in this thread, they will be dealt with harshly for ignoring repeated warnings and multiple counts of breaking forum rules.
Now that we're back on track from that little detour, this thread is reopened for discussion regarding the Charlton Catalogue in the 21st century.
Discussion resumed!
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Thank you Brent!Dealt with in a most appropriate manner 8)!
As some what of a novice,my thoughts may be immature in nature,but investment is my game.
It would seem that Charlton indeed is out of date as to price when it comes to rare uncirculated notes.Try and find a dealer that will sell you a true uncirculated note 1937 or below at book unc prices.
The dilema becomes,how to show a true reflection of CURRENT market prices.
A combination of on-line and catalogue would go a long way to help accomplish this imo.
I would have no problem with pop-ups,aq bsubscription fee,and any other advertising deemed suitable to have this venture pay for itself.
A mutual fund in paper? A concept that intrigues and yet boggles the mind :)
Troy,if you pull that off,you deserve all the success that it shall surely deliver its founders.And investors.
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Thanks,
Let's not put the cart in front of the horse though, it is a fascinating concept no doubt and one of Canada's top hedge fund managers finds it intriguing along with a few of Canada's most active numismatic traders and investors that I have shopped the idea around with.
I think the market support would be there so long as the fund is run with full transparency and the team has enough of the right people onboard to have "street" credibility. It is the founders job to assemble such a team.
My main hurdle right now is legislative and it will take some time to work through whether or not this is workable.
If it is then green light means go!
Troy
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Please stick to the topic of this post: Charlton Catalogue and the 21st Century.
Discussion of the proposed financial endeavour should occur in another thread. Further posts on that subject in this thread will be edited or removed without prejudice.
Thank you.
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I would welcome the exporting of the numismatic fund topic to a thread of its own as there appears to interest.
Troy
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You are welcome to do so, just don't continue the discussion in this thread.
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Feel free to export what is already here if you wish to such a new thread.
I believe there may be a couple of posts related to it which can be consolidated in case there are additional questions or comments that come up.
Troy
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This topic is now so far away from the original that it ceases to have any importance or signifigance.
The new catalogue is a wonderful piece of literature in the form of a book. It is not on line for various reasons primarily due to cost and other factors, including lack of interest.
The number of paper money collectors in Canada is small, too small to make it profitable to run an on line book of constantly changing prices.
Suggest anyone who believes it can be done at a profit contact Mr. William Cross and offer to do it for him. See what he says. See if you would be willing to spend your own money to satisfy your own curiosity about on line information, given out freely or install a security network with a fee being charged and all the inherent details of collecting that fee for viewing to subscribers.
If fact, try this on any subject, perhaps one with a much larger base than paper money collectors.
Just my thoughts, but I have the feeling that this subject is just about talked to death.
Rick
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(Before the thread is closed)
Rick’s two emphatic last words put things in strong perspective. He also points out the reality in this hobby, more people are in this for profit than for fun, which leads to speculation. Profit is not a dirty word, neither is fun nor friendship. But I am sure there are enough of us who basically enjoy looking at banknotes as pieces of beauty, who love the thrill of hunting down certain uncommon notes (filling a hole in our albums), who enjoy spending time studying the back plate/position numbers, who love trade notes at bar with fellow collectors. (tsk, tsk). Profit is nice but not essential to us; profit is not everything. For most of us, it is just a hobby and probably a long term investment.
Anyway ….
It is easy to see there are those who love to see an e-catalogue; and there are those who prefer the status quo, partly because of reality and partly economics.
A focus of debate is the cost of putting on such an e-catalogue, namely, the viability. But it appears few have calculated the cost seriously or realistically. For example, few acknowledged the fact that Charlton already has a big website which allows customers to order products, that also means personnel is in place.
If electronic magazines /journals and database by subscriptions are totally not viable how come most magazines/ database /associations /clubs are on internet? (Except CPMS, which is another story. But I understand CPMS has not changed much in the past 20 years. …Come to think of it, neither has Charlton’s catalogue.) I guess the question is whether the collectors are getting the money’s worth in the catalogue, printed or online, year in year out. What if you only collect the modern issues? Perhaps some people / businesses would rather stick with status quo, out of fear of the unknown, tech-phobic or old age.
In the end, I don’t think Charlton gains any more insights out of the debate to help its decisions one way or another on the venture.
But I hope Charlton would give e-catalogue some serious thought, even experiment. No business is sure of success.
Don
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Not really wanting to re-open old wounds, but one of the things mentioned was about Charles Moore finishing as CPMS President shortly. It implies that he has done little to assist the paper money society in its quest for improvements in things like the Charlton Catalogue.
The CPMS has few members, certainly not enough to matter with books or influence their scope to any great extent. Mr. Moore managed to get $5000 in hard cash to help prevent the CPMS going under.
This money came from CAND.
CAND also has little influence on the Catalogue beyond what members may contribute to that book, led by several well known paper money experts including members Charles Moore and Don Olmstead.
I think the expertise is in place, and on reading the book, I found it to be an excellent source of information. Prices change quickly as many on these pages attest to. The book is a snapshot of the information on prices when it was put together.
Rick
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There is a detailed discussion under way in the pricing panel thread if you wish to join the rest of us there.
If you want to test this new angle of yours to see it tested like the others before it please bring the discussion there.
Perhaps those who cut the trees that were used to print the book have also been disrespected because we want a potentially more modern approach and better representation of the online market.
Let's give this angle a go too and if it slams into a wall like all the other attempts before it to deflect the core issue.
Seeking evolution does not mean what came before it wasn't great, however markets evolve and so must the approach.
A flank attack on this issue will not work.
Troy.
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Try to say whatever it is you are trying to say without being so critical. I am following this topic, not the other one at the moment.
I wonder why some people just want to re-write the prices? Read the whole book, and if you are really not pleased with it, write your own.
I believe I have followed THIS topic, something that you could try in fewer words.
The pricing stuff opened in another topic is a different topic completely.
There is a detailed discussion under way in the pricing panel thread if you wish to join the rest of us there. (I am aware of it, thanks very much)
If you want to test this new angle of yours to see it tested like the others before it please bring the discussion there. (What angle are you talking about. I will discuss this topic in this section)
Perhaps those who cut the trees that were used to print the book have also been disrespected because we want a potentially more modern approach and better representation of the online market. (More modern is your version of an electronic price list?)
Let's give this angle a go too and if it slams into a wall like all the other attempts before it to deflect the core issue. (What angle is that?)
Seeking evolution does not mean what came before it wasn't great, however markets evolve and so must the approach. (Evolution apparently doesn't always work, I suppose)
A flank attack on this issue will not work.
(This statement is without merit, flank attack indeed)
Rick
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It is clear what you were attempting to do and it isn't going to work.
I am happy to inform you of this here in this thread or the other one.
The fact that you attempted to connect a desire to feed the market improved information on a go forward basis (in light of changing market dynamics) with 'it therefore follows we are saying Chuck didn't do a good job' is absurd and just about the worst kind of spin on this I could conceive of.
Shaking my head in disbelief wondering where else you might try to point this to next.
Troy
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Hopefully with Chuck Moore retiring the chair, the incoming President would like to take some action, rather than making the usual respond of "Under consideration"?
This is the statement I am responding to, not some other hypothetical problem associated with nothing in this world.
I don't feel the previous comments are anything but a poorly formed attempt at diverting attention from this post. As I said before, the book is not perfect, but does contain a lot of detailed information not availble elsewhere. The stuff about putting it on line in likely not economical. Paper money collecting is a small part of numismatics, not the biggest part. It is not as big as decimal coins or mint products. This site is able to survive because much of the work is not paid for, but the interest continues in paper collecting despite all the hype about prices being incorrect by some members.
As prices change, both up and down, new levels will emerge. Cutting trees is how paper is made as all are aware. Internet sites use up a lot of electricity and require monthly fees to connect a computer to it. There are a great many collectors who do not use a computer, but it sure is easy to carry a book and make notations where errors are found and prices need adjustments.
Only a handfull of collectors carry a hand held computer, the vast majority have some book or note pad with them at shows.
One of the early comments was about Charlton's getting with the times and getting the book on line. As this doesn't appear imminent, it is up to the brave souls with lots of funds to publish their own on line book. Of course, it would need its own numbering system for notes as the one currently used is already owned by the book people.
Rick :)
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"Not really wanting to re-open old wounds, but one of the things mentioned was about Charles Moore finishing as CPMS President shortly. It implies that he has done little to assist the paper money society in its quest for improvements in things like the Charlton Catalogue".
It appears to now mean something much different than how it reads. Thanks for translating it for us who took you literally.
Those of us with the funds to assist the industry would rather build on what we have now, I am not aware of anyone who wants to reinvent the wheel.
Troy
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Sorry you had such difficulty understanding what I said.
When one of our members is accused of something (or not doing something), it is my position to defend him and/or explain the situation. Without Mr. Moore, the CPMS may well have slid into receivership. He is also the President of the CNA, a former President of CAND and a current member.
I think the CPMS could use some financial assistance. The dues do not even begin to cover expenses.
Rick
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No apology necessary,
To clear the air you may want to point out who and where it was 'accused or implied that Chuck has done little to assist the paper money society in its quest for improvements in things like the Charlton Catalogue.'
I missed that accusation and implication and have been unable to locate it.
Also is there a financial snapshot available of the current status of the CPMS I can have a look at to better understand the need?
Troy
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Bitburger wrote today:
Quote:Charlton Catalogue has not changed enough during the following years. the way we are collecting paper money has been developed with Internet and If Charlton does not take another "Modern" way for his Catalogue,
That's exactly what one forum member here, also a long time CPMS member & Contributor, has suggested to Charlton's board, thru Bob, over the past year along with other constructive ideas.
Hopefully with Chuck Moore retiring the chair, the incoming President would like to take some action, rather than making the usual respond of "Under consideration"?
No apology was given for your lack of looking up the quote above.
Have a nice day?
::)
Rick
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I am much more sympathetic now on your defense of Chuck now after seeing this text you pasted, my sincere apologies. I assume what you copied and pasted exists in the thread somehere. I must confess I originally went back looking for it and didn't see it.
I don't see the shortcomings as any one persons fault either (but I haven't been on the inside), markets evolve and so must the approach, it is that simple.
Having said that I strongly disagree with your conclusion that we have all the right expertise in place to address the next phase of the markets growth. I do however believe the market possesses the expertise, it just isn't being utilized to it's maximum benefit, if hardly at all; to do this the expertise must be distributed correctly and new processes put in place and existing ones improved.
In short I believe the issue is one of both deployment of expertise in tune with changing market dynamics combined with the problem of some out-dated or non existent processes.
Troy.
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Your turn, Troy.
Translate that into English. Your strongly disagree with what?
I run an association of professional dealers, run a coin show and do the trends in CCN. I have been a member of most everything for many years, and even took a stab at writing about numismatics.
Paper is one small part of Canadian numismatics. Repeat, it is a small part, not the major part. I don't submit information to Charlton's book information as it is a conflict of interest for me.
Overall, I feel the book is pretty good. Prices always need adjustments about 3 hours after it is published, but the prices are current when written.
There are many good people that contribute to the book, many from this site, and most of whom I have a working knownledge.
Some new faces wouldn't hurt one bit. As I may have mentioned, write your own book or bring one on line. Best of luck to you.
Rick
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Happy to translate,
To avoid duplication please see the pricing panel thread for extended discussion on the industry not having the proper representation of the online market feeding pricing information to Charlton and a lack of process in place to address same. Without proper consideration of the online market the data has become obsolete on many key rare issues and this problem is going to get worse, fast. The online market is producing sales of notes where no or less sales data exists in the B&M world. There is a discussion currently underway and self-evident acknowledgement in the pricing panel thread on how to remedy this problem, one member of the panel made the suggestion of at a minimum online sellers could report results to Bob Graham. To get even to this stage of acknowledgement took considerable time and effort swatting flies away along the way and several failed attempts to shut the thread down before it became clear that it was very far away indeed from being "totally stupid". In fact some my concerns were shared by Don O himself re his attempt to remedy the stale dated pricing concern and his suggestion on how to begin addressing reporting eBay results.
I am prepared to invest magnitudes of additional effort to advance this further and work it to a conclusion as it is the markets best interest to receive the best information within reason. Pushing aside the odd defensive reaction or two along the way is extremely trivial in the big historical picture.
There is also a question about how many people are actually submitting pricing information, the suggestion is that the # is too low when compared to a couple other world class models. This concern was only increased when Rick explained that many who are asked don't submit pricing information and just put the request aside and the data never captured, this begs for increased expert redundancy.
I also have concerns (for very good reason) that the information contained in the registers as compiled by those who publish them in the CPMS newsletters is not being factored properly into pricing information by the panel. I have concerns about how efficient the sharing of information process is.
Why so many concerns? I care a whole lot about this market and many people who are investing heavily in it and I feel a strong duty to serve it well and believe I have something to contribute. Anyone who just dropped $5000 on a note that the guide says is worth $1000 and it is the only known example in private hands wants to know who is capturing the new market sales information and how is it being done. I am here to find answers to those questions and if the answer is 1) no one is and 2) no process is in place; I would like to help find a remedy.
And I probably have heard rumors that Paper is not the only component of numismatics after our family has dropped a few million trading coins in the last 1/4 century. Since this is a paper money forum I will leave it at that.
This will be my last post in this thread to avoid conducting the same conversation in two threads.
You can find me in the pricing panel thread if you would like to challenge or comment on any portion of this post.
Troy
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Nothing to worry about, Troy. I already use a person who tracks every single ebay numismatic transaction with some fancy computer program he developed.
So, it not only can be done, it is being done right now. Fully automatic I am assured.
Rick