1935 FRENCH $5

News: Registration is free here at the CPMF!

What's it worth? I mean the grading. How would you grade it. I see a major difference in price between VF and EF.

looks like a VF

 This one looks like was washed and pressed. I'd say V.F.

And with some design missing right on the vignette of Edward, I don't think it can make a true VF. I'd same strong fine at best...

...Which is why I would recommend taking an ordinary graphite pencil and coloring in the white area on the portrait.  Virtually every 1935 note has been modified in some way, and this is hardly a detrimental modification.  Also, the black seal on the right side of the face looks less than 100% complete.  You might want to get a really thin black pen and have a go at that.  The inks on the 1935 $2, $5 and $10 notes are easily lifted off the surface.  Someone trying to press the note with a hot iron may have caused the design loss on the seal.

This is one of the reasons why there big jumps in price values the higher the grade. Any 1935 note in grades VF and above are really hard to come by. In all the 1935's i have i don't have any that are better than an F. They are just so hard to come by, and when they are available they are just too costly.

...Which is why I would recommend taking an ordinary graphite pencil and coloring in the white area on the portrait.  Virtually every 1935 note has been modified in some way, and this is hardly a detrimental modification.  Also, the black seal on the right side of the face looks less than 100% complete.  You might want to get a really thin black pen and have a go at that.  The inks on the 1935 $2, $5 and $10 notes are easily lifted off the surface.  Someone trying to press the note with a hot iron may have caused the design loss on the seal.

From your logic I might as well get an artist to draw a 1935 $5 bill on a plain piece of paper.

For me this note is AT LEAST a VF-25, especially if you compare it with the kind of notes that are TPG Fine-15 or even VF-20.

Examples:

eBay item # 150408405423 is TPG graded Fine-15., item # 370305723652 is a VF-25

The technical grade may, in fact, be higher than VF, but the design loss will hold down the expected selling price.

Ultimately, the only way to find out what your note is really worth is to put it into a public auction and this logic applies whether it's been graded by a TPG company or by a private individual. You could start off by listing it on eBay (perhaps with a reserve) using high-resolution scans and let potential bidders decide what the grade is and what the value is. Catalogue prices are nice to look at but in my experience it's very very difficult to obtain full catalogue value when selling unless you're dealing with a major rarity.

Whatever way you cut it, a note is ultimately only what it is to its owner.
For selling purposes, this may be a VF25 in the eyes of its owner or to a TPG firm, whose assessment is still only the opinion of a human.
To grade this note in accordance with the CPMS standards (which have been, with the exception of new UNC grades, published in the Charlton catalogues of Canadian money for a long time) one must consider that there is design missing in several places. Under those terms, this cannot be a full VF in any way, unless one jumps up and down and proclaims it so.
The buying bottom line: I wouldn't pay VF25 money for this note. I would pay fine at best, because of its problems.
I also wouldn't bother trying to repair any of the design with a pencil, pen or anything. An educated buyer or collector will recognize this immediately and is more than likely to assess the note a lower grade because it is less original than even with the design missing....

Ottawa: You are right. None of the notes are going for full book these days on public auctions. If one note goes for 75% of book, everyone will follow the pattern and will not be whiling to pay more than 75%.

I have several TPG graded notes and I use them as comparison. Sure this note has problems, but in the eyes of a beholders these problems are probably not as big of eye-sores as, say, two big dirty folds alongs the horizontal and vertical middles.

Justy look at the notes that are out there that are TPG graded F or F-15 or even VF-20. This one is far better. The reverse has bright colors with raised ink. Most notes have design loss along the middle horizontal/vertical or other areas. This one does not.

This is a very rare bill and although it is not for sale, VF is booked at $925 and EF is booked at $2400. I think I can get at least $1200 from a whiling buyer if I put it up for sale.

P.S.: What is a "full VF" ? Is that like a VF-35 ?

BTW, this is a note.
Bills are what appear in your mail box and you don't generally like....
VF is generally defined as VF20.
Better notes can be VF 25, VF30, or VF35. Bottom of EF is 40...

...... VF is generally defined as VF20. Better notes can be VF25, VF30, or VF35. Bottom of EF is 40...

It's very difficult to know exactly what the "VF" prices in the Charlton catalogues correspond to as Charlton only defines numerical grades at the UNC level (i.e., UNC 60, 63 & 65). The numerical range of the "VF" grade is far too wide in my opinion, going as it does all the way from VF-20 (which is Fine or thereabouts using strict "International" grading standards) to VF-35 (which would be VF-EF using strict International grading standards). I personally feel that the "VF" grade in the Charlton catalogues corresponds to VF-30 on the American scale but one will never get a true consensus on this point. However, the large majority of PMG/PCGS VF-20's and VF-25's that we see in the marketplace are certainly not true VF's according to strict International grading standards.

It's important to remember that any note that has been "laundered", i.e. washed/pressed/processed, must automatically be reduced in overall grade by at least half a grade, no ifs or buts. Most advanced collectors will not touch a laundered note unless it's a major rarity and not otherwise obtainable. Similarly, most dealers will not buy a laundered note unless it is priced substantially below catalogue price.

The scans you provided are low resolution and it's difficult for me to be 100% certain whether it has been washed or has not been washed. If it hasn't been laundered I would call it VF but if it has been laundered then it would be F-VF in my opinion. Perhaps you could post some higher resolution scans?

This is a very rare bill and although it is not for sale, VF is booked at $925 and EF is booked at $2400. I think I can get at least $1200 from a whiling buyer if I put it up for sale.

The bottom line is the note is worth to you whatever you can get for it.  If you can find someone who will pay you $1,200, then that's what it was worth.  If your asking price is $1,200 and you don't find a buyer, then the discussion of value is purely academic.

BTW French $5 notes are not rare at all except in top grade (like AU or Unc).  There are 6 such notes in the upcoming Torex sale.  Every major auction has these.

I'll try.

But I have very rarely seen a 1935 "original" that has not been pressed. I recently sold a 1935 $5 pressed EF for $800. If there is a buyer out there whiling to pay a price, shouldn't that be the market and the guide as to what makes a note detrimental? Sure if there is a substantial loss of design or color then it's a demerit.

A note is not original if it has been pressed.

 

...Which is why I would recommend taking an ordinary graphite pencil and coloring in the white area on the portrait.  Virtually every 1935 note has been modified in some way, and this is hardly a detrimental modification.  Also, the black seal on the right side of the face looks less than 100% complete.  You might want to get a really thin black pen and have a go at that.  The inks on the 1935 $2, $5 and $10 notes are easily lifted off the surface.  Someone trying to press the note with a hot iron may have caused the design loss on the seal.

MMars - I quite enjoyed your 'tongue-in-cheek' comments, they made me laugh -  sometimes I think we all take things to literally and seriously.

Thank you

  MMars - I quite enjoyed your 'tongue-in-cheek' comments, they made me laugh -  sometimes I think we all take things to literally and seriously.

Thank you

 
You're welcome.

Don Olmstead is selling a note on eBay that's graded VF-20. Compare it with mine. That's what I do to get ideas. IMO my note is better than a regular VF. Thanks for all the input. I have another note that I need opinions on, will post scans soon.

Your note is most certainly better than a PMG VF-20 but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's better than a Charlton VF! Needless to say, if you want to use the Charlton catalogue prices then you logically have to use the Charlton grading standards. Unfortunately, this doesn't always happen on eBay and many buyers end up getting burned. This is the problem, and it's a big problem, with having two distinct and very different grading standards, one in Canada and one in the US.

The sooner we end up with one single grading system in North America the better, at least in my opinion. Just think about it, if you have a note that most people in Canada agree is a Fine according to Charlton standards and you send it across the border and obtain a PMG VF-20 or PMG VF-25 grade then something is just plain wrong. Obviously, the Americans aren't going to change their grading standards. In my opinion it's a case of "If you can't beat 'em then join 'em". It's little wonder that many Canadian collectors and dealers are sending their notes to US auction houses and to US TPG companies!

It's not the duality of having two distinct grading systems that is the problem.  It's the way some online sellers are playing the two systems against each other that causes problems.  There are quite a few eBay sellers who have the audacity to charge a PREMIUM for PMG graded Canadian notes.  If anything, their notes should sell for a huge discount because of the laxer PMG grading standards.  Those sellers are depending on the naivety of a few buyers to make a direct correlation between the PMG grade and Charlton catalogue price.

US grading companies are not here to help younger inexperienced collectors; they are being here to PREY upon collectors who can't grade.

Well everyone has to try to make money one way or another, right? Afterall, paper money is just that: paper... art. If someone really likes a bill, he/she will need something to convince himself to spend $x of money that he/she can afford on it without feeling stupid and without feeling like he would have to make a fool out of the potential buyers in the future.

I still think my bill is better than a VF, even according to Charlton!

And mmars, you nailed it, some sellers have no shame in listing a PMG-VF25 for $7500 US when VF is booked at $5,500 in the Charlton and EF is booked at $7000.

And what's up with listing in US dollars Do they really think people are really THAT stupid? That if they want to pay $1000 for an item, $920 US will look to them like a "discount"?

It really tilts me to think how much money was given to eBay for nothing whatsoever.