Should BCS grade error notes? Please sign the petition

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I was just talking to Steve Bell of BCS regarding the possibility of starting to grade error notes. For those of you that know him or have dealt with him you may know that at this point he does not grade errors. If I can get enough people to be interested in this, it may be something that he would consider down the road to a certain degree.
Even if you don't have errors, or collect them I think that this is another way for BCS to become more recognized by more collectors and in turn make any of your BCS graded notes more recognized.
So if this is something that may interest you, please let me know!
I will eventually pass the information to Steve if there is enough interest.
(By the way, this is in no way obligating you to submit notes should this pan out )
FRIEDSQUID

Small correction... It should be "BCS", not "BSC".

I do not support the grading and certification of error notes for reasons including but not limited to: i) errors can be fabricated and it can be difficult to discern authentic from fabricated errors. A certified fabricated error would be devastating to BCS' reputation. ii) error notes are inherently difficult to grade because (for example) a gutter fold error, some would argue, could achieve no higher than VF because of two very hard folds/creases running from edge to edge. Others would argue that it is Gem UNC. If I really wanted to, I could list a few more reasons, but suffice to say that I will not be supporting this initiative.

I totally understand what you are saying Brent and in some areas I totally agree and maybe I should have made it somewhat clearer but as I said "it may be something that he would consider down the road to a certain degree."
I think that there are some error notes that as Steve agrees are legitimate and the types of errors he may grade are only those that he feels confident about...I cannot speak for Steve personally, but the fact of the matter is that some errors are listed in the catalogue and if they can't be graded in some shape or form than the validity of an error note can sit in limbo...
I know there are some error collectors among us and I know that some notes where purchased for large amounts of money.  If these are true errors, then why can't they be authenticated? As for grading a note there will always be those that agree or disagree as to its true condition, yet even a new uncirculated note straight from a sealed BOC brick is not guaranteed to be graded an UNC That's just the way it is.

A question I have is this
"Is the missing circle variety an error note?"

Yes, I believe it is an error.. although a smaller one

A question I have is this
"Is the missing circle variety an error note?"

Was this not just talk about??
http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/forum/index.php?topic=8540.msg39241#msg39241

A couple points in response...

1. My comments should in no way discourage others from posting their opinions, and I ask that anyone reading my comments not use them to bias themselves. These are my own personal opinions and they hold no more weight than those of anyone else on these forums.

2. Not long ago, BCS raised a question on these forums regarding the certification of missing circle notes and what grades they can obtain. For various reasons, primarily consistency of grading, it was determined that the centering, although imperative to being a missing circle note, must be graded in a consistent manner as with other notes. The suggestion that exceptions to this consistency be made for error notes (not just all error notes, but only some error notes) is thus hypocritical and creates double or even triple standards. Either you certify all types of error notes, or you certify none. You can't pick and choose.

3. Just because an error note is raw (eg: not in a TPG sleeve with their official grade, etc), does not mean that it is not an authentic error. If that were true, then it would be equivalent to saying that all raw notes are counterfeit, and that's simply preposterous. If errors were to be certified by a TPG (and I am in no way suggesting they should be), then that would merely confirm that, in the opinion of the TPG, the note is an authentic error. It could still be fabricated and the TPG did not detect that. We've all seen tons of mistakes (or even blatant incompetence) on the part of various TPGs over the past few years to know that things do slip by. Authenticity can be debated regardless of whether or not a note is certified. However, certifying notes that are inherently subject to dispute is not good for the TPG doing the certification.

"Is the missing circle variety an error note?"

Yes, I believe it is an error.. although a smaller one

4. It is my opinion that missing circle notes are a variety that can appear on at most 25% of the notes of that series*. The fact that the missing circles are present is not in and of itself an error. The potential error arises because of the imperfect centering, and when it reaches an extreme, it could be classed as a standard E25 "Cut Out of Register" error note. If the centering were perfect, the missing circles would be nearly undetectable as they would have been almost totally cut off.

*The exact theoretical maximum is different depending on how you measure it. I'm considering that 1 of the 4 columns of notes on a sheet printed by CBN is potentially a missing circle note. If you throw in the BABN notes, which were not affected, the percentage decreases.

As an avid collector of Error notes I am definitely in favour of having this service made available. My only question is; couldn't any grading company provide this service as a bank note is grade able whether it's just a regular note, insert, asterisk, UNC. Error, Radar etc? In response to your poll squid I would be looking to have approx. 100 Error notes graded. One other point I wanted to make is that there are 2 consecutive graded Error Bird 20.00's currently for sale on an Internet auction site......so there are in fact TPG services all ready offering to grade Error notes .

One other point I wanted to make is that there are 2 consecutive graded Error Bird 20.00's currently for sale on an Internet auction site......so there are in fact TPG services all ready offering to grade Error notes .

Is that the buy it now at 50K one?
Yes other TPG like PMG does grade error notes, but I was hoping that a more local TPG like BCS in Ontario would be easier to deal with than a cross border company.

[edit]Comments removed.[/edit]

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Could it be true? A BCS graded error note? (error not noted on the holder)
"Certified 1954 $2.00 Devils Face Note W/Cutting Error"

Item number: 220349982435



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Well judging by the picture the label doesn't explicitly state this note as an error. And add to the fact that Steve doesn't 'grade' error notes as per his policy. He could have made a facetious comment and state it as 'Bad cropping VF'  That would interest me in buying it. 

Alright, I think we need to get one thing straight here... Are we trying to find mistakes in how BCS has certified particular banknotes in the past, or are we looking for notes that BCS has specifically graded as errors?

Either way, if you're on a witch hunt, it is not in any way relevant to this thread, and I would like to hear how it is relevant for these forums overall.

This thread is meant to discuss the merits of whether or not BCS should be certifying error notes (or any TPG in general, although BCS is one that specifically does not). Finding examples of BCS-certified banknotes with mistakes in the certificate, or examples of error notes that have been certified without being mentioned as errors is, in my opinion, off-topic for this thread, and any future posts of that nature will be split off and moved to an appropriate forum.

Alright, I think we need to get one thing straight here... Are we trying to find mistakes in how BCS has certified particular banknotes in the past, or are we looking for notes that BCS has specifically graded as errors?

I started this thread ONLY with the intent to find out if BCS should in the future grade error notes and really don't care about anything beyond that.  I think that there are enough topics about TPG making errors in their grading, but I agree with Brent 100% that this is not the thread for it. If that is what someone else is interested in please created another thread.
FRIEDSQUID

My point is this, and I should have explained in the earlier post, sorry if it got people upset. To me this note shows an error, and I would think others would agree. Weather this note has had a lower grade assigned to it due to the fact that it is off-center should be noted on the holder.

To me this indicates that BCS will/has agree to grade errors if they are minor on the note, and if they look legit, without referencing a Charlton error variety on the holder.

My point once again, if BCS is grading notes similar to this one, and they do not want to grade errors, or indicate “error” on the holder, they should make a comment on the holder regarding the appearance of the note. This is not saying it is an error, it is indicating a visual inaccuracy on the note that may be out of place to a regular issued perfect note, and this could be a factor in a lower grade of a note.

I do agree that some error notes are very tough to identify as being legitimate, and if BCS starts to grade and identify notes as “error” verities, then they need to establish as I indicated in the missing circle thread, strict guidelines as to the method and steps needed to grade a note as an error.

So the bottom-line, yes I would like to see BCS grade errors, but at a minimum at least indicate visual appearance irregularities in the comment section.

Thank you for your clarifications, Elwoodbluesca.

While you and I have differing core opinions, I believe we have agreed to disagree and respect each others opinions.