CPM Forum
General => What's It Worth? => Topic started by: EyeTradeMoney on February 23, 2009, 11:11:37 am
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{attach:4906}
{attach:4907}
The diagonal crease on the portrait as well as the marks on the right and left end of the note's reverse are kinda distracting me.
PM me for your opinion and how much would you think would be a fair price for this note.
*The note is not for sale, it is for my collection, but I need to know what to put in my Excel sheet before I put it in my album.
Thanks!
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Most People can only give an approx Grade. Without anyone seeing a note in person a "sure thing" grade can never be given IMO.
If you want it professionally done. I suggest you send it out to a Good TPG Service. That way you will know for sure.
I know some members here dislike TPG services but I have several of my notes Graded and "Slabbed" it stores them nicely and allows you to look at them without potential damage.
But if you want an opinion on Grade for this note. I would say Fine+ maybe Very-Fine. I highly doubt it is original though.
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This note has a definite "washed & pressed" look to it and it may have been trimmed too. However, it is not unattractive by any means and it is what it is. I would put it somewhere in the Fine+ to VF- range although you might get a full VF rating from one of the American grading companies as those companies tend to be more liberal than the strict Canadian (i.e., Charlton) grading standards.
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I'd beg to differ. I am the most conservative grader in here and I'd label it as an EF minimum. Almost no major distractions, all the bright color/due still intact. I bought it as an EF+. Some may even call it an AU. Look how the PMG have graded some notes at VF-30 or EF-40.
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So why are you asking for the opinions of others?
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So why are you asking for the opinions of others?
Basically I want to learn how to spot if a note has been washed/pressed.
I don't have to agree with opinions. It's not like I'm selling the note.
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I'd beg to differ. I am the most conservative grader in here and I'd label it as an EF minimum. Almost no major distractions, all the bright color/due still intact. I bought it as an EF+. Some may even call it an AU. Look how the PMG have graded some notes at VF-30 or EF-40.
There's a big difference between a Canadian (Charlton) EF and an American (PMG/PCGS) EF. It's just the way that the different grading systems have evolved over time. This fact doesn't imply that one system is any better than the other. However, if you want to use the prices in the Charlton catalogue then you have to grade according to Charlton standards. Unfortunately, many sellers are using the Charlton prices in conjunction with PMG/PCGS grades, for obvious (pecuniary) reasons. That is neither logical nor kosher.
Just for the record, for how long have you been grading and analyzing the finer points of Canadian paper money? Many members on this forum have been doing these things for over 30 years!
By the way, never accept the grade on the holder when you buy a note (whether it be raw or certified). Always make up your own mind and remember that a washed/pressed note has to be downgraded by half a grade or even a full grade from its "apparent" grade.
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Ottawa: Neat info, but how can you tell for sure if the note has been pressed or washed? Really, I need to know. It's not like I have 25 of those super rare notes that are worth in the 4-figures, nor was I born for as long as some of you have been grading notes.
It's true, some notes could be pressed with a piece of clothes in between without direct contact with the iron and it wouldn't lose any fiber then, so then what's the special evidence that would lead one to conclude a note being washed or pressed?
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Eye...
Have you read the Section in the Charlton Guide on how to grade notes?
I am by no MEANS an expert.. but following the instructions in the Charlton guide on how to examine a note is pretty much spells it all out.
If you can see any decent amount of Embossing on this note then it probably isn't pressed. But none of us can tell you that here unless you take 100 photos on various angles with proper lighting.
To me the paper looks washed.. but that is from the 2 photos you provided.
To get to what Ottawa was refering to.. the difference between Charlton (Canadian) Grading and US Grading.
Take a look at these scans. Tell me what you grade this note. It has been Graded by BCS and I removed the part showing the grade.
You can super zoom in on the note from Imageshack. It was Scanned at 600DPI.
I bet the Senior Guys here can put a pretty much exact grade on what this got from BCS. :)
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7351/193710note1u.th.jpg) (http://img7.imageshack.us/my.php?image=193710note1u.jpg)
(http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4395/193710note2w.th.jpg) (http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=193710note2w.jpg)
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Ottawa: Neat info, but how can you tell for sure if the note has been pressed or washed? Really, I need to know. .......... It's true, some notes could be pressed with a piece of clothes in between without direct contact with the iron and it wouldn't lose any fiber then, so then what's the special evidence that would lead one to conclude a note being washed or pressed?
The best and easiest answer regarding washing/pressing is "I know it when I see it", but I realize that's not very helpful. There are so many different types of washing and pressing, e.g.,
1. Dry pressing (no water) in direct contact with a hot iron.
2. Dry pressing (no water) in indirect contact with a hot iron between sheets of paper.
3. Wet pressing (with water) in direct contact with a hot iron.
4. Wet pressing (with water) in indirect contact with a hot iron between sheets of paper.
5. Wet pressing (with water) inside a book with 20 other books piled on top (no hot iron present).
6. Wet pressing with bleach using (3), (4) & (5) above.
7. Wet stretching until dry (yes, I've actually seen a banknote stretcher!)
.... and the list goes on and on. Some people I know use a book press or a vise to create an extremely high pressure.
The best way to find out if a note has been washed/pressed is to press some cheap circulated 1954 or later notes yourself using different processing strategies and then look at the final product carefully. Generally speaking, if the note is as flat as a sheet of glass yet shows signs of former folds and missing ink along fold lines then it has been processed in some way. Also, on higher grade notes that have been pressed the embossing of the serial numbers will usually be missing on the back. Another giveaway is wavy ripples and wrinkles in the horizontal margins where the paper has expanded or contracted during the pressing process. Good luck!
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Eye...
Have you read the Section in the Charlton Guide on how to grade notes?
I am by no MEANS an expert.. but following the instructions in the Charlton guide on how to examine a note is pretty much spells it all out.
If you can see any decent amount of Embossing on this note then it probably isn't pressed. But none of us can tell you that here unless you take 100 photos on various angles with proper lighting.
To me the paper looks washed.. but that is from the 2 photos you provided.
To get to what Ottawa was refering to.. the difference between Charlton (Canadian) Grading and US Grading.
Take a look at these scans. Tell me what you grade this note. It has been Graded by BCS and I removed the part showing the grade.
You can super zoom in on the note from Imageshack. It was Scanned at 600DPI.
I bet the Senior Guys here can put a pretty much exact grade on what this got from BCS. :)
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7351/193710note1u.th.jpg) (http://img7.imageshack.us/my.php?image=193710note1u.jpg)
(http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4395/193710note2w.th.jpg) (http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=193710note2w.jpg)
I am using eye-in wireless so it won't allow me to zoom. But from the look of it, AU/AU+? It's hard to tell the difference in very high grade notes looking at a scan alone.
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Ottawa.. you pretty much nailed it on the head "I know it when I see it".
I thought I used to know what an original note was... until I bought a "real" one :)
When you do have an original unaltered note EF+ you will be able to tell. But Embossing is one of the best ways to tell. Texture and Feel of the note will tell you as well.
The note I posted above I thought was for sure an AU-50 or AU-55 but here is the BCS Grade. It is "Original" though as I knew because of the embossing.
I am sure if I send this to PMG it would be a AU-55, AU-58 maybe even UNC.
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9986/1937101.th.jpg) (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1937101.jpg)
Best way to learn in collecting unfortunately is to "See" in person as many notes as you can.
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There is a fine line between EF-45 and AU-50... I bet you can sell this note as AU+ on eBay.
I never said my note was an AU but definately better than a VF.
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There is a fine line between EF-45 and AU-50... I bet you can sell this note as AU+ on eBay.
If these are your business ethics you best have a top notch return policy.
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Careful where this thread goes... I will close it if the comments get too derogatory.
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If these are your business ethics you best have a top notch return policy.
What business ethics? Just post the note on eBay without giving it a grade. Say "Very sexy 1937 $10 note - a beauty! L@@K" and let the buyers judge for themselves. You don't even have to give an opinion. It'll go for AU or above, guaranteed!... Ok perhaps a little lower because of recession, but that doesn't mean buyers don't see it as AU+.
I was once sold an EF+ note (worst than yours) for "UNC" by NAME REMOVED. I spoke to him over the phone and in person at least 3 times before going all the way there about how a $1000 note in AU will not be more than $1100. I get there and I see a bunch of EF+/AU's labelled as UNC. He said the flaws make them "not GEM UNC"... there were at least 6 flaws on the note. I ended up buying one for $1175 because I had spent so much time running around trying to find one, when I finally saw one, I just had to end my search. Although I'd like to think these "flaws" are only handling marks and the note is in fact AU+, my conservative opinion won't allow me.
[edit]Name of dealer removed as comments are potentially libelous. Future posts of this nature will be deleted. --BWJM[/edit]