CPM Forum
General => Banknote Grading Standards and TPG => Topic started by: rachelsprivates on October 18, 2006, 11:17:16 pm
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It's an opinion piece for sure.
http://www.give-a-buck.com/closet/essay/editorial18.html
;)
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2 weeks ago I had the opportunity to see 2 Canadian notes graded by the same company. One was graded Fine 15 and the other AU 55. As the notes were sealed, I tried to grade them with a 100 watt light behind the holders.
My opinion....
Fine 15..... I would grade this as an Original F+
AU 55........ Washed and pressed, corners rounded, 3 vertical folds and would grade it as Pressed VF
Collectors should always grade notes themselves even with third party grading.
justeo
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I'm not an expert but I'll trust my own grading over a 3rd party's any day! I've never bought a slabbed note but all the AU55's I see scans of look very sad indeed.
I just feel bad for all the poor collectors paying 40% EXTRA for an UNC64 note when they are really getting something that's not even Unc by canadian numismatic standards. Once everyone goes and gets their AU notes graded as Unc64 and they flood the market, I think it's obvious what will happen to the value of these notes.
Charlton will just have to replace the AU column with Unc 63-64 and the EF column with UNC60 and so on in their next issue.
Unless 3rd party grading actually attracts new collectors into the hobby, all they will do is suck $$ OUT Of the market for Canadian Paper money. Prices will only go as high as collectors are willing to pay and if they are willing to spend their money on grading, that is that much less to go towards the value of the notes themselves.
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Agreed.
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I certainly see both sides.
I wrote an extensive opinion in another thread-not one comment.
Here's an interesting occurrence.A recent public auction saw my wife buy 11 lots from ebay live auctions.All notes were ungraded.If you have read any of the prior posts I wrote on grading you will be aware my wife has been a rather large buyer of graded paper,much to my chagrin.
The notes arrived 1 day before we left for Puerto Vallarta,she examined them and was doubtful of several grades assigned in the catalogue to 7 lots. Humbling herself(she'd kill me for that remark),she asked my opinion.After forming my thoughts I called a good friend and CPMS memeber.
Turns out he and I both agreed 6 lots were over graded.
Two of the lots were described as GEM UNC,with one of those lots having a pressed note,although lightly.Another lot was an Original Unc that was trimmed,even a blind man would have figured that out.
We returned the notes with no problems but she was very disappointed,one note a rare solid 9999999 1954 $5.00 note would have been here pride and joy.She would have paid a total of $1300 for that note had we not discovered the over grading.She would have also been divorced,lol! ;) ;D :-/
This dealer and I have had many great mutually rewarding transactions.In no way am I denigrating them. Yet,they do take consignments from who knows who that thinks they are grading experts or shysters.Which one is anyones guess.
In conclusion,my wife kept 5 lots and stated"Now you know why I buy graded paper money if I have not viewed the note".
Hard to argue with that logic,no? :-/
As I stated previously,whether we like it or not,for various reasons I think the hobby is heading this way.I do not like it but then again,who cares what I like?
I don't like 600k for a 1000sqft apartment in Vancouver but it is what it is.
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RP,
Only my opinion for now and that could very well change if/when the time comes I add high end notes.
Medium priced notes I would not care.
For the cost of certifying I don't see the big deal. One can cut it out of the holder after. I sense the high value ebay seller is going that way and watch to see how Don's PMG experiment goes. Wait for his next catalogue I guess.
When I read about a high value auction offering note, that is 'described' as UNC , I do ask myself "were they afraid to get it certified".
Just a small minnows opinion.
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This subject has been beat to death,with many wishing the old ,many wishing the new(graded).I'm surprised the moderators have not stepped in to stop a rehashing of the same subject in new threads over and over.At the risk of flogging a dead horse then:
rachelsprivates wrote-
Judging by the responses above, it doesn't sound like private money grading is popular or wanted.
Do you really believe 8 posts on the CPMF forum constitute public desire to have graded paper money?
A forum with 300 members? If all 300 members posted their dislike of 3rd party grading do you really believe that would be an accurate gauge of market dybnamics towards this subject?
What of International interest,what of buying notes unseen like the example I gave of a recent experience my wife had?
So why is it inevitable then? Who are the people foisting it on us? And what can we do to change their minds?
I do not think, again just my opinion,it's "inevitable".But with International pressure on our notes,buying sight unseen,grading gives a certain level of comfort to those International buyers,wouldn't you agree?
Who are the people foisting it on us? Paper Money Buyers? Dealers?Collectors?
And what can we do to change their minds?
Nothing short of banning 3rd party grading.And why would we want to change their minds?
Is it about price with you or others who buck this trend(again I do not like it,but I accept it).
What is so wrong with credible 3rd party grading services,except a personal distaste for them?I like to feel my notes ect,but like everyone I have mis graded a note or 2 in the past.So will grading companies now and then.But it seems as the hobby expands,we need checks and balances,imperfect as they may be.
Stands to reason in my mind that it sure beats every Tomm,Dyck,Rob,and Jo Ann that fancies themselves experts and sells notes as such.
I can not begin to tell you the number of times I have been taken by improper grading via dealers,ebay,collectors.Would I have been spared 1000's of dollars had those notes been graded.maybe not to the full dollar value,but surely better off than I am.
Obviously the people supporting it are not posting here
Again with 300 members,and dare I say,thousands of International collectors of Canadian Paper money,it is doubtful many are even aware of this site,Heck I can list 10 Canadian Paper Money Collectors in Canada that are not aware of this Forum.
Not trying to be confrontational,there are many sides to this story.But to dismiss 3rd party grading out of hand seems irresponsible.They exist for a reason.The public eventually catches on to any scam or ponzi scheme.They/it then fade away.
rachelsprivates-just curious.You've posted in a variety of ways regards this subject.Why so resistant to this,is their more to this I'm missing? As a fairly new member maybe I have not seen your reasoning times past?
Regards,Robert
PS_Why am I in Mexico posting on the CPMF ?Well,the sun goes down about 8 oclock.I'm sunburnt,thats when I will go play! :( 8-)
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doug62
When I read about a high value auction offering note, that is 'described' as UNC , I do ask myself "were they afraid to get it certified".
Now there is a question that will preoccupy my thoughts b4 buying Unc again.lol!
But it is a question that deserves an answer
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in fact, when I see `certified' i wonder `is he hiding behind the cover."
I guess, some of us, including me, have been too harsh on this certification stuff. It is just that
a, is it necessary ? after all we have been without this for years, and there have not been any big flops. b, is the third party credible ? who is this 3rd party ? If I pay for the thing, I am sure I am entitled to higher grade (I am sure customer is always right)
3, this number stuff, i really do like. Why 60 ? are we waiting for 70. 80, 90 ? why not start with 80, and the perfect one is 99 ?
Cheers
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This is about knowing your seller.
2inV makes that clear- you buy a note from someone you don't know- you are taking a risk. If you are uncomfortable with that risk, then hold off on it until you can see it, or have someone you trust and know make a statement on it in your behalf.
Many have seen "Olmstead UNC" or C&P "UNC", and we know what we are getting (or COULD get) from either.
I could go on and on... we have all dealt with many people and know how they grade.
Know thy seller. The 11th commandment. ;)
As far as stopping it, vote with your wallet.
A paralell now, look at what has happened to stocks since e-trading has started. An influx of amateur investors all trying to find the next best thing for investment purposes. What is happening? Some people win, and some people lose their shirts, because in their search for easy money, they do not educate themselves. Just something to think about.
There are many coin dealers that do not deal with certified material, and they do it by choice, and they are fine without it. Paper can be the same. It is all about what you want to collect or spend your money on. It is good for me because every note that gets slabbed means that there is one less note I will be choosing from when I buy. Makes shopping a little easier in theory for me. (Just have no money to shop) lol
Just my 2 cents + 2 cents
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Hey I dont know where this note would pass as a AU note not going to say where I go these pictures....
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Yes, looks like a bad job Archey80. Owner should insist on re-submitting.
Only time will tell, though I'm of the belief 3rd party will eventually be the norm. Much like coinage.
Of course all the ones who press, wash, alter, etc., will fight tooth and nail saying "we dont need this". Gee, thanks for looking out for my best interests.
I have no ulterior motive on this subject, own no graded notes yet, nor am a seller.
What we need(impossible prob) is population counts. Hell even US charters I think know outstanding $$ amounts.
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:o
anyone else concerned??
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I'm concerned !! I've been collecting notes for almost 20 yrs. There was no 3rd party graded notes back then. You pulled it out of the holder, held it to the light, flipped it over. And if you were happy with the assigned grade, you'd buy it. If you thought it was over graded, you'd point out the flaw(s) to the seller, & hopefully he'd sell it to you for the next lowest grade. And if he didn't agree, I'd put it back. Unless it was one that I REALLY wanted. :-? My thought's only. Darcy
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RS dude has a good point, but shows exactly one of the problems. That is the habit of pulling notes from holders to inspect them and return them when complete. This over fondling of paper turns them into lower grades. Uncs become AU's.
The best part of third party grading is the protective holder which prevents fondling: it also prevents good grading by the would - be buyer. As there is no school to attend to learn how to grade notes, we all are taking a chance when selecting the grading company. Time will cull out the really bad ones, hopefully by not hurting too many people.
Rick
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rachelsprivates,I stated I was not trying to be confrontational and you responded with:
Did you even bother to read the essay given in the link to the original message of this thread? Doesn't sound like it. You don't mean to sound confrontational, but you're certainly coming across that way. My distaste is not personal whatsoever. Read the essay before passing judgement please
I did read the article,another OPINION,as is mine.And that is all it is.Then again you state I should read the essay before passing judgement? Who is passing anything.I started this conversation with"I can see both sides" I have stated I HAVE NEVER BOUGHT A GRADED NOTE. Have you even "BOTHERED" to read any of my previous writings on this subject.I have stated on numerous occasions I DETEST GRADED NOTES but that is a personal thing.
Another thing mentioned in my post was I am not trying to be confrontational.You chose not to believe that then state I'm coming accross that way!! Lets get one thing straight,here and now.I say what I mean and mean what I say. You can accept it or not,just as grading is taking the market in new directions.
You picked out a few statements in my reply to you,yet you ignore about 20 pertinent questions.That says volumes about where you wish this discussion to head.
Is this about the money? It would seem that way.from your article?:from your?article:
There was a time in Canadian coin collecting when 11 grades of mintstate did not exist. When standardized grading was introduced to coins, collecting changed forever. It became possible for people all over the world to compare collections if they all had their coins graded independently by the same company. Comparing coins created envy as someone else invariably had nicer pieces than you. Thus began the race to find the highest graded coins of each year and type. Prices soared for the top grades as the most elite collectors traded the best pieces among themselves. At the opposite end of the grading scale, circulated coins suffered. Attempts to scale their values against the highest-graded pieces failed. Who wants a collection of second- or third-rate coins? Also, population statistics proved that most coins exist in bigger numbers than there are people to collect them, and so the coin market stalled, and it is now commonplace for most coins in grades below MS-63 to trade for big discounts against "Trends".
The relative scarcity of quality paper money was underrated until recent years. As more collectors entered the market for paper money, prices moved up across the board. This adjustment is perfectly natural in response to simple supply and demand theory. Private third-party grading will not change the supply side of the market. All it will do is change the perceptions of collectors who will chase after the top-graded pieces and pay exponentially more for them than lower grade pieces. The result will be the same as what happened to coins in the past two decades, i.e. circulated paper money will trade for big discounts against catalogue values. What's worse is that this may have a detrimental effect on new collectors who typically start buying cheaper material before progressing to choicer material. If new collectors start by paying too much for cheaper material and become aware of their mistakes later on when they try to upgrade, they may feel deceived or lose confidence, with the inevitable result of quitting the hobby.
The underlying themes of both paragraphs are monetary imo.I disagree with the article almost 100% but I will not determine the future the buying public as a whole will.That's really what we're talking about here,is it not?
Tools such as auctions,grading services, formulas, etc. do not determine price, they are only tools to help manage risk. If these tools determined price, there would be no risk and with no risk comes no reward. If any particular tool helps people they should use it, as long as they know it's only a tool and it is not the market.
Market always determines true price regardless of the above.
Anyone that cares to do due diligence on a note graded by ANY grading service can and should BEFORE purchasing it.I have and did for my wife.Call them up,give them the # and you get it all.I will not go into detail as this is an exercise every buyer can and should do before purchasing a note they can not view in person.
If memory serves PMG has a grading panel of 3 individuals,there is history.
Is it any different with a car? Do you check it out even if it's a used certified BCAA vehicle? Uh,if you don't your crackers aren't salted! ;) Of course you take it to an independent auto mechanic,he certifies it and you own a new vehicle.
Do you purchase a new home without a inspector?Try it,you're banking institution will have a thing or two to say if you don't.Independent "GRADING",another name for it folks.Done in almsot anything of tradeable worth.
Do you buy a stock without independent research to verify company claims? Or you pay someone to do it for you.In either situation you have an "Independent GRADER" working for you.
Your job becomes to verify the info to the best of your ability the "GRADERS " opinion.
For five years I have paid ZERO attention to the opinions of others outside of the market prices I see camp and it has paid off handsomely.
Here's another opinion:http://cgi3.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=themonetaryman
Many of the comments here have been very worthy of consideration,agendas are another matter.
I can add so much more,but with that said I'm withdrawing myself from this conversation.It is a subject that has been 'talked' to death.Everyone has an opinion.Ultimately,what 300 members here have to say will not change market place perception,nor International pressure on our market.
Good night folks,have at 'er,Mexican Pina Colada's are whispering in the wind ;)
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My major concern is that I am not in Puerta Vallarta enjoying the warm winds as BN is !!
While I have not had a chance to continue the eBay experiment with PMG notes there was a very, very good result from the first group. Additionally, there has been strong demand from my PMG notes on the price list. Without an exact calculation I am certain that 75% have been sold and the average price would be at least 25% MORE than the same note non-PMG. These were almost all premium notes that I thought would grade in the 65 range and that is how they came back, ranging from 63-67 with a few higher and most at 65 or 66. At this kind of premium it is well worth the effort and the grading fees, which averaged about $30CDN pernote.
The lack of grading skill among collectors ( & dare I say dealers ??!!) makes collectors move toward graded notes. Would it be fair to speculate that if you opened and graded a hundred PMG notes that you might find 15-20% overgraded by Canadian standards ? I will venture that % range, at least for discussion.
OK, now view a hundred "raw" notes from auctions, dealer tables, dealer lists etc. My experience says that a solid 35-50% are overgraded - AND THAT INCLUDES SOME OF MINE. We all have a % of error but hopefully nothing near 35-50% !!
If these ROUGH percentages are true and I thing they may be, then a collector who does not have total confidence in their grading ability will get hurt financially less often with graded notes. Comments ??
On another vein, when eBay got going many predicted the demise of shows and dealer lists. Not so, but eBay has a segment of the market. Same will be true of graded notes. It will be a solid piece of the market but whether dominant, as in coins, remains a question. With notes there is a greater desire and need to touch the note and see it raw to grade it. That may have an adverse effect on the prevalence of graded notes, but only a moderrating effect.
I am selling graded notes and will sell steadily more of them. I WOULD RATHER WE DID NOT HAVE GRADED NOTES PERIOD. But I am not going to change or stop the move toward graded notes. A lot of my customers like them and that % will increase. As a dealer, I would be unwise and ill-advised to ignore graded notes.
I can see that a collector would prefer raw notes, I do too. But market forces will dictate that graded notes will grow as a presence and a share of the notes sold.
Cold and rainy here tonight - how much is a flight, BN ???!!!
OleDon
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I have few graded notes in my collection. I have rarely returned notes, with an AU-50 graded note being one that I returned. I was not expecting to find 4-6 pinholes, ink stains and folds in the note. I would have graded it about EF at best.
I think it is a matter of having a thermostat, so to speak, in knowing the grading party and how they grade, just like we know the dealers and how they grade or various sellers on ebay. At least, most sellers on ebay don't grade and we know from experience that scans usually look better than the notes. With graded notes, we do not expect to get that note that Archey showed when we buy an AU-50 as I did not expect to get the note I got. I think Archey's is more aggressively graded though. However, at least his above mentioned the foxing. This one did not mention the pinholes, creases, etc. I thought that note was an exception but now I would assume AU-50 is a euphemism for about EF or VF+. The problem is some dealers/auction houses will not accept returns on graded notes while returns are accepted on raw notes making 3rd party grading MORE risky as far as managing risk.
The general perception I assume is that current 3rd party graders (TPG) cater to their clients (those who are grading notes in order to sell them) and will be the most optimistic in grading if there is a gray zone. If we already have a note we are keeping, why would we want to have it sealed unless the intention is to sell it for more than it would otherwise fetch as a raw note.
What we now need for the "checks and balances" is a grading firm that will protect the buyer's interests, just like there are buy-side analysts as well as sell-side analysts in the equities industry. Perhaps every note should be doubly slabbed (lol), once by the sell-side and again by the buy-side so we have a range of a low- and high grade that can be potentially assigned to a note. In reality, when buying a note, collectors are more harsh in grading than when selling a note just as are dealers. Just like in quantum mechanics, atoms have probability clouds, so are the grades of notes a probability cloud representing the group of probabilities that a particular note may be assigned a particular grade by the universe of graders. The current 3rd party grades most often represent the upper bound of this range of grades that may be assigned. We need a party to assign a lower bound too now so we have a real idea of what we are getting. Perhaps I say this tongue-in-cheek because it is just too awkward in practice.
When you get an overgraded TPG note, you have bought the grade, not the note. You have overpaid for the actual note and paid some for the "goodwill" in the TPG grading. Unfortunately, you may or may not be able to pass that on to the next person who buys it as for me there is no intrinsic value in having the TPG aside from the note itself. I assume most buyers will also return an overgraded TPG note if they could.
These are just my opinions and I have no strong feelings either way. I am just not prepared to pay a premium for a TPG graded note when the buyer of these is subject to the same pitfalls that a buyer of raw notes may be.
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rachelsprivates:
"I want to apologize for misinterpreting what you said in your posts. I realize you were not being confrontational and I had no right to say that"
Accepted and apreciated :).
Although I stated I'd be withdrawing from this thread,it's pretty dam hard when you receive a sincere apology and the "DON" of Paper Money wades into the conversation ;)
rachelsprivates:
Sure, I'm concerned with monetary issues. Most collectors are. How many collectors buy notes without thinking about future returns? Wouldn't we all love to know how it feel if money was just an object!
Standardization would be great if it didn't mean dropping our collective standards to meet the needs of a few bad graders.
Valid points,indeed.You make,imo,an irrefutable point,our standards will/are/do drop with the proliferation of graded notes in to the hobby.
Now Don,I have no idea of flight costs from your part of the Country,the Antartic as it were!!lol ;D
What I can inform you of,and have in the past,accomodation is free.The sun tan lotion is $2000 a bottle but the sun tan lotion..... 8-)
back on topic.Don says:
OK, now view a hundred "raw" notes from auctions, dealer tables, dealer lists etc. My experience says that a solid 35-50% are overgraded - AND THAT INCLUDES SOME OF MINE. We all have a % of error but hopefully nothing near 35-50% !!
This has also been my experience as well,whether at auction,ebay,dealers stores,where ever.My suspicions are that far too many notes are overgraded because of a lack of skill and knowledge.
If I were to believe that all these notes were purposely 'bumped' up a grade or two,you'd have to conclude the hobby has been lost the way of circus carnival game.
Although once in buying thousands of notes(ok!maybe A thousand),I RECEIVED A UNDER GRADED NOTE from a dealer.Couldn't believe my eyes so had 3 other CPMS members view it,all came to the same conclusion,the note I bought as AU was absolutely Unc.
That darn dealer,told him about it,tried to re-sell back to him for full Unc price but no dice,eh Don !!
jasper.
Excellent and well thought out comments .
Hope this discussion continues with the high quality of thought this thread had developed into!
Weather report-89.3 F at present-Mexico has not adopted Celcius.You do the math! 8-)
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jasper:
QUOTE:
I thought that note was an exception but now I would assume AU-50 is a euphemism for about EF or VF+.
This reminds me of the time when I attended my first show in Singapore where there were English, U.S. and other dealers from all over the world. Each dealer graded their notes according to their respective standards and I found that a note graded as "good VF" by an English dealer would be "AU'' by the U.S dealer and "EF" by IBNS standards. But to be fair, prices were not all that different, only terminology.
justeo
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Justeo:
How true. We always have to remember we are buying the note, not the grade assigned as that is always relative to the grader's standards.
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There's a couple of points that really concern me:
1st that its the opinion of very knowledgable members here that dealers/collectors have such poor grading skills which doesn't instill confidence in their abilities!!
graded a hundred PMG notes that you might find 15-20% overgraded by Canadian standards
or
experience says that a solid 35-50% are overgraded - AND THAT INCLUDES SOME OF MINE
I find this troublesome because whenever a dealer inspects a note of mine, they tend to search/sniff it like RCMP narcotics dog for any flaw, and then talk about it as if its "not bad" or a grade lower than it should be when banting about a $ figure. I know I don't have to sell it but this kind of inspection often goes after I'm interested in buying. This thread/discussion doesn't instill any confidence I have in the whole process of grading. I think my point is...that most of the members I know, and the panelist discussing this subject in this thread are fairly skilled at grading a note. Sure its subjective (almost like Nuclear Physics -- as "Jasper" points out) and there certainly are "pros and cons" to TPG.
What gets me too...is the number of times I've bought an UNC rare note and have had 1 or 2 dealers tell me afterwards that the note I bought wasn't UNC. I find this insulting because I inspected the note and did see a small flaw (a counting flick) which I could allow since the price was flexible and below book. But the comments from "the peanut gallery" certainly did nothing to instill confidence in my purchase.
2nd: that TPG will spoil the hobby for the new collector as suggested rightfully by the essay.
I agree with this assessment. In fact I believe that this TPG phenomenon only affects the top percentile of serious collectors (us) at the present moment but will have a negative effect on the common collector who doesn't seek trophy notes, or perfection in the future. At one time there was a place for people who just enjoyed collecting paper money (even 1967 $1.00)! I used to be a collector that just enjoyed getting a rarer note of any grade and I find myself pulled into this TPgrading/ UNC fever... which I don't like. That's probably because as "2inV" mentioned we'er all concerned about our notes future values. So TPG will have a negative impact on some of us (the established collector), the new collector, and collectors who are less "diehard" in their enthusiasm. This cannot bode well for the hobby.
TPG may be here to stay...but we don't necessarily have to adopt it (especially if it remains to be an American enterprise-- with all those pitfalls).
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I think its also likely that TPG will bring book value down on most notes. I used to think the opposite was true...but have re-assessed my first opinion of the practice since I've seen so many gorgeous notes go up for sale right at the same time TPG started to hit the Canadian paper market. Perhaps its coincidental, but it does seem to be the general consensus here that "raw" notes are not looked on as favorably as slabbed or TPG notes. I'm sure there have been many a good bargain had too. But those days are over. As R-privates has noted...TPG could affect the hobby as it did with Canadian coins... not a good scenario.
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Third party grading is still an infant. Few notes are transacted in the slab right now, however, that number is growing and will continue to grow.
The method of using Sheldon numbering, originally designed for price differences on early US copper coins, is what is being used. We have beat this subject to death here a few times. While there are differences in opinion on grading paper, and what to call them, the slabs will continue. When a particular grader consistently over grades or incorrectly attributes the notes, that company will gradually be dropped as no one will believe what is written.
What we need is a real third party grading company, with three to five graders, who are well known in the paper industry. Toss out some names of people known, not people who think they are great, but those that can grade.
Graders, for example, should not be able to grade and sell their own stuff. Dealers who do this now are grading their own notes, and when a person grades their own notes, perhaps it just might slip up a notch on the package.
To quote some opinion from another party who has no credit outside of their own opinions does a disservice to collectors. The bottom line when buying notes. If the seller and buyer have equal ability, a mutally agreeable price can be reached. A person told me this morning that the error note he has is unique. Big deal, all of them are.
Rick
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I have had a hard time with this situation as many influent people in the hobby have strongly suggested CCCS start grading notes. My thoughts on the situation are this; although many collectors are accepting the TPG or CCGS grading system, many feel the note should be graded with the actual system. I think the best would be a compromise in between.
If the CPMS or the members of this forum are interested in discussion with me and some members from the Montreal area accepted by this community are willing to work on the grading (paid of course) there might be something that can be done.
I can be contacted on this matter by any members who wish it.
Louis Chevrier (CCCS) info@canadiancoincertification.com :)
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Louis: there is a market for this service.
I know you have been looking into this for some time. Exact terminology, proper holders, computer generated data, info available, cost, number of graders. All this stuff and more to consider. This is a good place to discuss the issue.
Rick
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I agree as well,
We need someone who collectors can turn to to have their notes FAIRLY and PROPERLY graded for a REASONABLE price from people they can TRUST.
I feel these are the MAIN factors that are most important to the General Collector. I know I am not the only one who feels this way...
I support the idea of a 3rd Party Grading Company who is NOT involved in Buying OR Selling of Canadian Paper Money in any way. JUST AN UNBIASED GRADING SERVICE (Nothing More, Nothing Less).
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Possibly, list the items that are important to buyers and collectors that would be most important for a third party grading service.
A partial list by me to start.
1. Name the graders, such a 3 primary, two alternative graders.
2. List the price for this service.
3. Type of holder.
4. Data base expectations.
5. Speed of Service.
Rick
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So far, I have recieve only one email from a member of the site willing to help on grading. I know him so will be able to discuss it more. I would like some more to show their interest.
Louis
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A grading comitee would not be a full time job for a while. Having more then 3 volonteers (paid) would ensure availability of the minimum amount of graders when needed. Rest assure most people are willing to wait a bit for quality grading, only dealers are a bit more interested in getting material swiftly. So even if you can't be available all the time, one or 2 evenings or one day a week might prove sufficient for a while.
Personnaly, it is not a requierement to have multiple graders, I know my abilities at it. The opinions expressed here show the desire to have multiple graders and I am open to it. Should I decide to start grading paper money and no group of graders are found, I would simply go ahead alone.
I think it could be interesting to have a grading team approved by the CPMS grading according to upgraded standard of the CPMS. When I write "upgraded standard" I simply mean not just G, VG, F. VF, EF, AU & UNC. I don't necessarily want to add numbers but mid grade such as VF/EF are needed in many case. 2 or 3 degrees of UNC can be looked upon also.
Here are more ideas to discuss. Feel free to express on them. ;)
Louis
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The Olmstead people have a list of available notes for sale, they comment on new unc grades that are like coin grading MS62, MS63, MS64 and the like. My question although simple is WHY, why do we need more grades, I think I know. I prefer the old grading system and the use of midgrades, simple any fold, mark, rip, even counting fold it is not UNC
Mike
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I looked at 3 graded notes today at Torex. The dealer selling them just asked me to grade them. One was Unc. 62, we both called it EF+, The one graded AU-50, we both called it VF, and the one marked EF, we both called it Fine plus a bit. In all cases, the selling dealer had the same grade as me, and told would-be clients that all three were overgraded.
Gets right back to it, the holders this company used did not impend another person from grading the note, The CAND dealer showed professional integrity by telling buyers that they were overgraded. The price he sold them for was based on his cost and his idea of grading. All they had become is decent notes in a slightly fancy holder with a written grade that was utter meaningless. All three notes were 1937 $10 Osbourne.
Rick
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I liked the essay, found it informative. I think a note with any marks, folds, bends, creases or what ever can not be unc. Some veteren dealers have told me that counting folds, fuzzy corners are allowed in unc notes, so they mark them unc and price accordingly. Actually as I have been networking with dealers around the globe I really have been told an awful lot of different things about grading notes. This gives some creditbility to TPG.
I see how newer coinage that is TPG in ms-65 or higher is bringing huge money for the seller. The newer banknote is not far behind. Is it not just a money maker for the seller, and maybe there is nothing wrong with this, considering we are all capitalist in some way.
I think I will go out the bank and buy some rolls, I mean blocks of notes to search.
Mike
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Also don't forget that some buyers want the EPQ designation. Majority of PMG work seems to be within this area IMO.
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the holders this company used did not impend another person from grading the note
Neat! I've heard many people say that the holders used by many companies make judgements of grade difficult to impossible. Were the three notes original or pressed/washed?
All they had become is decent notes in a slightly fancy holder with a written grade that was utter meaningless.
Indeed, meaningless to someone who knows how to grade.
Actually as I have been networking with dealers around the globe I really have been told an awful lot of different things about grading notes. This gives some creditbility to TPG.
In concept, I agree.
I cannot tell if the note is washed, cleaned or pressed inside a third party holder. Many people cannot tell at any rate. If the cleaning etc. is well done, no one can tell at any rate. Removing the note from the cheap holder causes more damage anyway. I seldom deal in high priced or high grade notes, but I do buy and sell a lot of common notes that go into sets for a specialized market. Perhaps some readers have seen the sets of $1, 1937, 1954, 1967 and 1973. I do not have the time to pull every note, and need to judge the grade from appearance inside the holder. 1937's need to be Fine, without marks or rips or crayons. 1954's need to be VF, 1967's and 1973 need to be AU-Unc, without major folds. I put together sets of notes that look good. 1937 2$, and $5 are often offered to me that I must turn down due to damage in the paper.
After all, banknotes are just paper, and subject to wear and folding much more than coins. PVC damage is often apparent, and this type of note should be spent unless an extreme rarity. Bret is offering to purchase Mylar holders for notes. This is the best method to preserve banknotes, and is well worth the price.
Rick
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Just as any two collectors/dealers will rarely be able to agree on the exact grade of a note so too any two grading companies will rarely be able to agree on the exact grade of a note.
We all know that many people remove "undergraded" coins from their certified holders and resubmit them to the same grading company (or to another one) in the hope of obtaining a higher grade because an MS64 coin is often worth two or three times the price of its MS63 counterpart. The same sort of thing is sure to happen with paper money.
Most "true" collectors, i.e., those who are driven more by interest in the hobby itself than by profit motives, invariably prefer to view and inspect their notes without being prevented from doing so by the presence of a plastic sheath (after all, collecting is a "tactile" hobby in which touching is a definite part of the pleasure). Also, most collectors will want to be able to verify that a certified note is what it actually purports to be and that can only be achieved by examining the note out of its holder (N.B. coins are much easier to view and assess through a plastic holder than notes are). In particular, the natural sheen and vibrancy of an original undoctored/unpressed note become invisible once a note has been entombed in plastic.
And let us not forget that the certification companies use real human beings rather than unbiased high-tech optical machines to grade both coins and notes! Human beings have an annoying habit of getting tired, losing interest in their work-related duties, making careless errors, and making different decisions based on how they feel on a particular day ;D. Personally speaking, I have seen far too much inconsistency between different grading companies (and also within the same companies over a period of time) to have any real long-term confidence in "certified grading". However, I accept that it's here to stay.
I have never ever sent an item out for grade certification myself but I'm sure to do it one day. However, if I ever do, it will not be because I cannot grade myself but because I know that I'll be able to sell my Mint State Red Canadian Large Cent or my Gem Unc Devil's Face note at a higher price on eBay ... ;)
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I've just returned from a three-week trip to Malaysia and was interested to see that the latest Malaysian paper money catalogue now defines two grades of UNC. It's becoming apparent that the notion that there can be more than one degree of UNC is catching on outside of North America .... :)
I've attached a scan of the Malaysian definitions below --- it's interesting that there is no AU category. However, this is quite logical in my opinion. After all, if you have several degrees of UNC then there's really no need for an ABOUT UNC grade since the lowest degree of UNC on the new scale should (logically) be synonymous with the AU grade on the old scale!. You would merely go straight to EF after the lowest degree of UNC.
Why on earth do we want to clutter up the grading scale with several degrees of UNC and with several degrees of ABOUT UNC??
[attachment deleted by admin]
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This is interesting- they define two grades of UNC - probably a good idea (ie for setting notes with and without cutting cups or ripples for example, given all else same).
But to define regular UNC with terms that are otherwise AU (according to ours anyway) to me is an act of pure deception, smoke and mirrors.
Call a spade a spade.
There are notes being sold that are TPG at shows, but being sold at a discount with an attatched caveat regarding how they are OVER graded?? Shouldn't this tell us somethings?
a) learn to grade yourself
b) there are people trying to make a profit off of your lack of knowledge
c) the given TPG means absolutely nothing (or is a source of caution) to hobbysists who have taken the time to learn how to grade (or even read the grading guide at the beginning of the book)
Given these three scenarios, how can we, the hobbyist body with good intentions, stand for TPG grading when this is the kind of things we get!
I disagree with any notion that the notes should be TPG by ONE member (sorry) but in order to maintain consistency and integrity to the grade as something special and accurate (and one that should be PAID for), there NEEDS to be a panel.
Even if TPG grades are dead-on, but are done alone, the percieved consistency is not there. Thus undermining the integrity - EVEN THOUGH, the grade might be correct.
IMO: THERE NEEDS to be a PANEL, even a rotating one, of solid accurate graders. And even then, it still never totally removes the problem of Overgrading, but if they are held accountable to their grades, like having their name placed on the holder below the grade as the "Grader(s)", then perhaps the overgrading would cease. Everyone would know if someone was trying to rip someone off then - and the graders personal reputation for grading would be at stake.
Q Posed to anyone:
Would YOU put your name on an intentionally overgraded note if you had to take responsibility for it by name?
Would YOU put your name on an intentionally overgraded note if you knew that it would destroy the confidence that others have in your in grading and as a well intentioned hobbyist (yes or even businessperson)?
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Jury duty?? :'(
That is one way to get really harshly graded notes (and proabably accurately graded too), to make it a public service that is provided free of charge for fellow collectors much as scientific journals send articles out for peer-review. Reviewers are not reimbursed for their time spent reviewing submissions.
Does that mean any collector who submits a note for grading must then participate in a rotating pool of graders to be called upon in the future to grade notes? In the academic world, that is how it works for manuscripts sent out to 2-3 reviewers. Sometimes the reviewers may not know too much about the subject at hand and not give a very critical review.
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No and no, but then these are quite stilted questions. Even the people who are selling TPG notes would not answer "yes". Every day, people sell TPG coins and notes without questioning the grade on the holder because they know potential buyers will not listen to an "unprofessional opinion" if there's a "professional opinion" for the same piece.
What I meant by this was "Graded By XYZ note Grading Company, by the panel Mr (name), Mr. (name), and Mr. (name)." So it would be under the professional grading umbrella, but would also attatch names.
And maybe this panel of graders could be people who are well traveled and known in the circiut, and who would put in a couple hours at some major shows at a grading table (with a panel) for people who had some serious notes to get TPG'd. Of course, there would have to be a fee to be charged for their time. Just an idea...?
That idea would
a) prevent people from having to send them off and risk loss in mail
b) demonstrate commitment on behalf of the TPG'ers in my opinion.
c) increase the percieved integrity of it by having a panel of more than one professional grader
I believe that if there was a pre-scheduled list of notes that people submitted to have looked at for a grade, for TPG-ing, then the TPG-ers could do it after show hours, thus not cutting into their selling floor time. Logistics and selling floor procedures and security I have no idea about though. There could be a fee charged for time, and then everyone walks away happy. (in theory lol)
Secondly, the more notes you have offered to grade, the more money you the grading company (as a panel) would make. So on a business side, I could start a grading company, hire 3 people who are well known and accurate, and have then go at it for accepting notes to be graded from walk ups (for a fee) or from appointments. Then the money could be split 3 ways, after i take my commission for masterminding the whole ordeal. ;)
Now, if anyone wants to take this idea and run with it, be my guest, but be responsible. It is posed here as a possibility and or a solution that would beneifit many, (since TPG seems to be here to stay).
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In the academic world, that is how it works for manuscripts sent out to 2-3 reviewers. Sometimes the reviewers may not know too much about the subject at hand and not give a very critical review.
I would hope that if this was the case, the members reviewing would be approved by maybe a vote by the CPMS members or something like that. Like the "Approved Grading Personel" would be a handful of top notch people who have been elected by their peers for their superiority in grading. That way, if talking about the CPMS for example, then there is a democracy about it, and the people can choose to vote from a list of people who choose to let their name stand if nominated.
Gets a little muddy-but it would just take some organization.
Then a TPG note could say on the holder "CPMS Approved Grading Personel".
In this way, I think graders would feel more accountable for their grades, and more accountable to the people. Thus- building up of trust and faith in the TPG notes, graded by "CPMS Approved Grading Personel". It could also be named as part of the Institutions section of the Charlton on the third page in.
At a time where there is HUGE change going on, and new standards being fabricated out of thin air, with all sorts of colorful descriptions, I believe that something like this would be very good, to essentially return the grading back to a reliable standard.
What do you guys think about this? I am desparately trying to figure out a possible solution that is best for the hobby, that does include TPG.
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I have offered to discuss this idea or possibility with member of the CPMS or CPMF, asked to know who in the Montreal region would be interested to work as a grader ( part time and paid ). I had some discussion about it at Torex and got two offers for graders, one around Montreal and one from western Canada.
I recieve no word from board of director of CPMS or any inquieries about that. Now I am not sure there is an interest from the CPMS to see a grading company with their benediction or sponsoring. I hope my english translate what I mean. Many of you don't know much about the economic of a grading company, fonctionning of coin show and other aspect of this type of business, so a lot of thing are said that as commandable as they may be are not viable.
The ANA use to own ANACS and sold it...I wonder why. With all of the comments I read on this thread, the solution is that the CPMS start his own Paper Grading Service, hire some of his members that are reputable, pay them to be present at shows across the country and be liable for the opinion of those graders. Oh! I forgot to mention that in order to cover the cost of this service, grading a note will be $150.00.
PCGS charge between $100.00 to $200.00 US per coin to slab at shows. Moving personal and equipment is very expensive. This is a bit difficult to do. It need to be established somewhere. Now if anybody from the board of the CPMF is going to be present at the Nuphilex Show in Montreal, I would appreciate a visit to my table to discuss this situation and know where the CPMF stands. I need no approval to start grading paper and may do so in the future. I have been offering the possibility to do it in a mannner that would please member here and there is not even a consensus on how it is wanted or if it is even wanted.
Louis
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I see an ad in the Coin News for CCGS from Calgary, it seems we already have a grading company doing TPG of notes. Is there a reason why people who want their notes graded, do not just send them to this company?
Mike
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CCGS is a highly respected company, the grading is generally conservative and honest. The owner is well known, and will shortly be a CAND member. He has more credentials than other Canadian companies and keeps a data base on submissions that is available for viewing. The turnover time for submissions is short, the cost is reasonable.
To have a panel of "experts" review the note being graded for no payment is unrealistic, it won't happen.
Rick
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The very idea of a voluntary grading panel is so appealing, but as Rick says completely "unrealistic." I know a few people who would be qualified to grade with little quibble from other veteran members, and when I posed the question of them participating voluntarily (as a grader) they laughed. If someone takes the time to inspect and grade a note they're going to want reimbursement.
I don't think third party grading is ruining the hobby,at least not to those who treat it as a hobby,but it is a way to make it easier for people who treat it more as an investment or a buisness,to sell notes at a higher price than they might normally command,if not professionally graded
I think we've already established the fact that if TPG becomes the standard, or if all new collectors become fixated for the highest grades of UNC than that can't be good for the hobby since fewer collectors will be satisfied with lower grades. I do think there is potential for TPG upsetting the hobby. If TPG is inconsistent, biased, or poorly applied then it can mean big profits for a seller, jaded buyers, and people quitting the hobby.
I for one used to collect mostly EF to AU until I realized that these grades are not appreciating in book value. I still collect lower grades in the older issues, but have recently become more demanding with 1954 and on. Part of this may be due to my change in tastes...but I sometimes wonder how much am I influenced by recent trends, my fellow collectors desire for UNC, and all this furor over TPG/and the grading of UNC. Honestly, sometimes I'm more focused on the investment side of the hobby. That's what I believe TPG does-- forces people to think about the note more as an investment, than as a collectible artifact.
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Liken this to coin slabbing.
Coins graded as MS-65 by ICCS command heavy premiums, while those in only MS-64 are often difficult to sell, with much less demand. Coins graded by other services have less demand (generally), and lower prices. If a collector knows his grading well, it matters not at all who graded it, or who called it what. If the items meets the needs of the would-be buyer, it will sell. There are some real bargains in coins of less than MS-65. For notes, the ultimate note may be -65, with real price differences for the notes with lesser grades. As has been pointed out before, It is harder to judge the grade of a note encased in heavy plastic. Trust becomes a real factor, perhaps the only factor on third party graded notes.
More time is still needed to see where this is going in the future.
Rick
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I was not implying that graders should not be paid as this would be very unrealistic as stated. I was just making a point that when a collector who goes to a TPG firm is paying client, there may be a tendency that the TPG firm may want to not grade too harshly or note the flaws on the holder so that they do not hurt future business.
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For those that use this service, they expect, no demand, impartial grading. How that is achieved is yet to be answered. It is better that the graders are known, from a panel, and not one person. Prices and service speed are still to be determined. If the price is deemed too high, no one will use it. How much should it cost to do good third party grading? One service is available in Canada now, and the grader does deal in banknotes.
Rick
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I would give $30 for a notes to be TPG by threee people. Split to $10 each way, I could present them with my UNC $25 bill from 1935, serial number 123456, and they could all arrive at a grade independently, then collaborate AFTER writing down an intial grade on paper. Then views could be debated, and flaws/perfections could be pointed out or highlighted in order to form a consensus.
I imagine my self coming to the Niagra Falls show with some juicy notes, and presenting them to a table of panelists, (at a table which might be open only for 2 hours) on the main floor where everyone else is. To get them Certified as GEM UNC 70 or 67 or whatever would be a great thing for my resale value (because that is the trend). Now, I obviously do not know how much time and equipment it takes to properly grade a note, but I always thought that a panel of three could easily look over a note and draw a conclusion in about 15 minutes. Add 30 seconds to print off a customized label from a computer program and put it on a specially designed holder, and you are done, right? (I know there has got to be alot more to it than that!)
Voila - a TPG note, done at a show, cost $30. (Remember this was all an idea in my head, without knowing the logistics of how it would really function).
The idea is, a walk-up table would create alot of attention (and alot of people would bring notes in my opinion.
I still don't have an ultimate solution. :)
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How the money is distributed to the graders is up to the owner of the company. $10 each is far too high to make sense from a business standpoint. The cost of a table at a major show is $500, and the travel expenses on top of that. Unless the guys all lived in close proximity, $30 per note would not cover expenses. Better to sent them by express post.
Insurance is available for shipping, although it is private insurance.
Yet to be determined is who the graders are. I would like it to be something like:
Head guy (owner), 2 of 4 possible graders. Total of 3, with the head guy having the final call.
The holders and computer programs are all a cost consideration as well.
Rick
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It could look like this!
Louis
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Could you make the scan larger please?
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We often forget that "American" grading standards have traditionally been much more liberal (i.e., much looser) than "Canadian" and "International" grading standards. Since the biggest third-party grading companies (PMG & PCGS) are American operations it's logical to assume that these companies will be applying the looser American grading standards when they grade Canadian and foreign notes. The inevitable result of all this will be an undesirable erosion of the more conservative Canadian and International grading standards.
In view of the above, an impartial Canadian-based grading company having the stature and recognition of ICCS is badly needed. However, if Canadian dealers and collectors insist on sending their notes to American companies for grading this will never happen! However, I can certainly understand the appeal of sending out an EF note to a US grading company and having it come back as an AU ..... ::)
I recently bought a couple of PMG-graded notes on eBay (one Canadian, one foreign) just to satisfy my personal curiosity. When I receive them I'll submit my report.
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If this really needs to happen, then I would like to see CCCS start grading notes. It is nice to have others involved in the grading of coins/notes other then the main players. I find their grading to be accurate, cost to be affordable and turn around times quick.
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I've been subscribing to Bank Note Reporter magazine for about 30 years and I must say that it is perhaps the most valuable paper money publication around (www.banknotereporter.com). This magazine deals primarily, but not exclusively, with US currency.
Once a month this magazine publishes "Paper Money Market" (i.e., the US paper money trends) and prices are given for two UNC grades, i.e., CHOICE Crisp Unc-63 and GEM Crisp Unc-65. I've attached scans of some representative prices below.
You will see that there is a VERY LARGE difference in price between UNC-63 and UNC-65 which suggests to me that there must be a correspondingly large difference in the quantity of handling marks for these two UNC grades. Assuming that UNC-65 is synonymous with a Charlton UNC (i.e., 100% perfection) then one can conclude that an MS63 is probably an AU(?) on the Charlton scale.
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Here's another example of the large differences between MS-63 and MS-65 prices.
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At the risk of imminent lynching...a few points:
I would suggest that UNC 60 is likely the current Charlton UNC price and UNC 63 and UNC 65 will bring premiums over the current catalogue UNC prices. (hint...they alreday do)
My personal experience is that dealers AND COLLECTORS tend to pay a premium over the catalogue UNC price for notes that are, in their view, superior with respect to originality, paper quality, centering etc.
Some may see this comment, and this trend, as reinforcing the observation that the introduction of multiple UNC grades, and the concurrent growing popularity of TPG notes ,as just a greedy profit drive. That will doubtless be partly true.
Is anyone naive enough to think that categorical reliance on dealer grades ( ANY DEALER ) is a better bet ?? Do you not think that many ( majority ? ) of raw notes sold are overgraded by Charlton or any other standard ? Comments ? Some of you on this forum I know are excellent graders - what is your show/auction experience ?
Lastly, and this may be a repeated comment, what are your comments on this observation/hypothesis:
On average, if a collector who is not really confident of his grading buys 100 raw notes and 100 TPG notes, will he not likely find fewer overgraded notes in his TPG group ?
OK ! Hit me hard !
OleDon
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Hey, I don't know where this note would pass as a AU note, not going to say where I got these pictures....
I still cannot get over the grading of Archey80's PMG "AU-50" note! If nothing else, it confirms in spades just how erratic and unreliable third-party grading can be. It's laughable in the extreme and totally inexplicable. Perhaps the American grading companies don't treat foreign currency with the same sort of respect as they treat US currency, or perhaps they just haven't seen enough foreign notes to pass judgment .... ?
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CCCS should start grading paper in 2007. My offer of consulting with the CPMS board of director still stand. I can be contacted privately if needed. If no approach is done, grading will be as CCCS see it. I also understand if they don't want to have any involvement in TPG of paper money and respect that. At least, I can't be accuse of not being available before the fact.
Louis
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I think that is a great offer, Louis. Now the people in charge need to act on that (I hope something happens in some way).
H
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I would like to add just a short note re third party grading especially from the USA. It came to my attention about a month ago, that someone I knew was getting a note graded per their PMG standards. This particular note was graded AU by this person in question. Why is he getting it graded in Florida. He told me quite simply that the note will come back Unc 63 for sure. I need not say that the difference in grade represented for this particular note was a whopping $5000. I dont want Amercian standards for OUR money. I want Canadian standards applied by Canadian graders. Tell me that this is not just my way of thinking and that I am alone in this vision for our hobby. Third party grading is a fact of life and inevitable. Lets make it something we can respect and cherish as our own. Thanks
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I would like to add just a short note re third party grading especially from the USA. It came to my attention about a month ago, that someone I knew was getting a note graded per their PMG standards. This particular note was graded AU by this person in question. Why is he getting it graded in Florida. He told me quite simply that the note will come back Unc 63 for sure. I need not say that the difference in grade represented for this particular note was a whopping $5000. I dont want Amercian standards for OUR money. I want Canadian standards applied by Canadian graders. Tell me that this is not just my way of thinking and that I am alone in this vision for our hobby. Third party grading is a fact of life and inevitable. Lets make it something we can respect and cherish as our own. Thanks
I absolutely agree.
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I agree as well.
Anyone can exploit this unethical opportunity. And sadly, it has been done.
freedomschoice has summed it up in the best possibile way that I could imagine.
I guess the trade-off of being concerned for the well-being of the hobby is belonging to a "scarcely civilized online forum". That is a cross I am happy to carry (please excuse the use of religeous metaphor).
I have never met a group of more civilized and classy individuals. Yes- some of us have differences, but we see past it to focus on common direction - love of the hobby and Canadian history.
Here is another post from this individual (who rachelsprivates quoted). Let us not forget-- temptation to exploit might have occured after this point, this post below was put ON THIS FORUM on: Oct 04th 2005 at 08:02:10. Back at this point, there was healthy discussion on how we could PREVENT a TPG system from sweeping the hobby - by having the system gradually eased in.
If you read the posts by this individual, you will see that it is purely market and profit driven. Canada was simply the next market to exploit.
Hi guys,
As Don hinted at this is an area for some healthy debate. For the issues from the years that Don mentioned (without counting creases) I do not automatically assume and label as gem as Don indicated he does when they don't have evidence of being counted. This is of course regarding this portion of his post: "issues referred to that do NOT have a counting crease are scarce GEM notes that deserve a 20-25% preium over the catalogue."
They may get a "Choice UNC" from me but would need to be essentially a perfect note in every way to earn a "GEM" label.
Anything from the years he mentioned with a single counting crease as its only flaw will get AU/UNC from me.
As you saw in another thread I like these two definitions of GEM and Choice.
Gem Uncirculated (Gem Unc) (UNC-65)
A note that is flawless, with the same freshness, crispness, and bright color as when first printed. It must be perfectly centered, with full margins, and free of any marks, blemishes, or traces of handling.
Choice Uncirculated (Ch Unc) (Unc-63)
An Uncirculated note that is fresher and brighter than the norm for its particular issue. Almost as nice as Gem Uncirculated but not quite there. Must be reasonably well centered.
I also think a GEM note should be at a premium far above 25% over traditional UNC as my standards for GEM are as above and my experience with USA paper tells me that GEM's are often 2x (or more) than traditional UNC 60's.
Having said that if the industry in Canada agreed a GEM note was simply an UNC note without counting creases I would probably agree that a 25% premium should be the max premium considered. I would however continue to disagree with this definition of GEM UNC and aspire to a higher standard - even for issues from the specific years referenced. With the market becoming more international than ever my many USA clients (thank you eBay) are accustomed to the definition of GEM UNC 65 I presented and would not downgrade their expectations of a GEM UNC note to accomodate anything less, regardless of what year was printed on the note.
This reminds me....is that grading seminar getting off the ground shortly? I thought it was a fabulous idea that would be appreciated by many.
(Name removed)
There is more to be read from him on-line at this time.
This individual seemed to have the hobby in mind at one point. His self description as a collector-dealer may be true to the term itself, but a person could really collect only 1 banknote and deal the rest and still have that term associated to the name.
Recognize the motive, that is all one has to do. Recognize the motive.
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I would like to take this opportunity to remind those who post to please take the high road and not resort to comments or insinuations such as those made elsewhere, including such derogatory remarks as "a scarcely civilized online forum" or "the small minded."
Please remember our forum rules, and why those who fail to remember those rules are no longer welcome here.
Do unto others as you would have done unto you.
Let's have a healthy discussion, and leave the trash talking for the other side.
[size=14]Thank you all![/size][/i]
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Recognize the motive
-- yes and the audience which is primarily International or American.
When I read the above editorial on the insurgence of TPG notes in the hobby I knew immediately who wrote it. If you ignore the self-congratulatory parts than there's some interesting points made. I think on the whole that its true that majority (up front accountable CPMS members for example) of the collecting community is trying to maintain more conservative grading practices/standards.
Other parts of this marketing piece can be readily dismissed because we know the true context (history) and the audience this author is appealing to. It simply demonstrates the dangers of vainly alienating yourself from the collecting community, of holding one's opinion beyond reproach, and focussing solely on market conditions.
I don't see the discrepency between Canadian grading standards and American TPG as a marketing opportunity. It may be a reality for those who're on the make (and we know there's always some who will remain somewhat exploitive).
However, I think the bottom line remains that we would be well served by a Canadian TPG co or ogranization. We all (myself included) seem to be hoping that tradition will prevail (ie our simple Charlton standard to grading) when we know full well how so many other factors (beyond our control) influence our hobby. We cannot be impervious to the influences of online auctions, the world market, and other factors (including unsavory practices). A formally recognized (endorsed) Canadian TPG would probably add credibility to our claims of conservative standards, and then would re-assert our standards, and prevent exploitive individuals from capitalizing on any percieved or real differences between our's and American third party graders.
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Recognize the motive
I don't see the discrepency between Canadian grading standards and American TPG as a marketing opportunity. It may be a reality for those who're on the make (and we know there's always some who will remain somewhat exploitive).
Seasoned dealers who are buying stock and sending it there know damm well they are going to get 8-10 grading points higher from a Paper Money Grading Co ( generically speaking ) They use the Sheldon 70 point grading scale and not Canadian Standards. Some will buy them and some won't. The mid-graded stuff is the worst, F-EF.
Ef=VF
VF=F
in general
etc etc
If thats ok with you them buy them.
But I don't accept it and I don't suggest anyone else do either.
Screw the market and whatever else is doing. Stay true to your standards. I won't be hearded out to pasture.
I do this for fun, not retirement income, for retirement income I like Royal Bank Of Canada shares.
I like the idea of 3rd party grading. BUT, grade properly please.
And properly IS what I know and What I want and what I will take.
Just because the American's do it does NOT mean I'm doing it.
Bring on 3rd party grading
But don't give me garbage.
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I found this information posted by a US dealer that had the same note graded
by different companies.
Interesting that PMG graded the same note 63 as CGA graded a 60 RESTORED
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Here is another example.
BIG difference between 63+45
I have found this repeatedly with PMG. If it's the odd note then OK. No one is perfect, but they consistently grade too high. Even when compared to that of thier US counterparts.
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I recently purchased this note myself on EBay.
I deliberately picked a lowish value note graded at 65.
When I get it I'm gonna cut it out for examination
You cannot properly grade a note in the holder
I'll report back my findings
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And here's my all-time favourite ..... a PMG AU-50!! OUCH!! PMG's proven inconsistencies in grading, more so than their tendency to overgrade, will eventually destroy confidence in some sectors of the market. For some reason, many buyers believe that the graders who work for these third-party grading companies can do a far better job of grading than you and I. If you truly believe that then you deserve to lose money!
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This is all very unfortunate. Many new collectors, trusting in the third party grading, may be turned off from the hobby after realizing the overpaid on many notes.
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My clients (which include most of the top traders of Canadian Currency in the world) and I prefer PMG in Sarasota Florida (www.pmgnotes.com) for 5 reasons: 1) International Focus 2) Best currency holder in the industry. i.e. Notes cannot be removed from the holder unless it is cut open, advanced security features, and it looks absolutely incredible. 3) Three currency finalizers grade each piece of currency. There is an expectation here that they will, over the long run, be more accurate than any single dealer or collector will be 4) They use the Sheldon grading scale which is widely accepted as a logical and precise 70 point numeric scale similar in concept to the one used in coins for years with enormous success. 5) The use of the EPQ designation and its criteria to earn this designation. EPQ stands for Exceptional Paper Quality and insofar as my understanding of PMG grading practices remains at a high level it infers 4 things really: 1) the note meets the overall attributes of being an exceptional example for the grade assigned 2) The note is Original and Undoctored 3) Higher than normal % of the Original embossing remains and 4) the paper has firmness better that is better than everage for the grade. The absence of 1 or more of the 4 above will cause PMG not to award the EPQ designation. The absence of EPQ does not however mean that a note has been pressed or altered, instead the note might not meet one of more of the other elements which it requires to earn the EPQ.
... and yet PMG seems to be anything but "accurate" "logical" or "precise" in the assessments of the notes shown above. At least CGA seems to be more thorough and discriminating. Makes one wonder if there's a deal being cut between certain TPG companies and certain dealers??? ::)
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Yup: Collusion to make the most profit. Pretty much the bottom line.
Edited:
Yup: Collusion to make the most profit. Pretty much the bottom line for SOME. I should have been more clear. Andrew M.'s example is refreshing.
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I'd be interested to hear from a few of the dealers that use TPG.
Are you in "collusion" with any TPG company for profits?
Does Andrew,who grades CCGS notes post here,under what name? Ive met Andrew at several shows,are we implying he would partake of such nefarious activities?
I do not know Andrew like many of you may,but my impression is he's honourable.
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Another I'd like to hear from.Don O.
He has moved towards TPG,I wonder,would he participate in such deception,purely based on profit driven motives?
Again,fwiw,I met Don O at a Torex many years ago.I stood back from his tables and marvelled at a line-up 2-4 deep,perhaps 20-30 people waiting to examine his notes.I was told the wait would be at least 30 minutes.No other tables at the show were experiencing this kind of 'action'.
At any rate,I watched as a girl bought a $10.00 note,a 1954 $1.00 note,she expleined to Don she was new to the hobby.With all these people vying for Don's attention,he stopped and took at least 10 minutes with this young girl and her just purchased $10 note to explain and SHOW her the difference between an Original Unc and a pressed Unc,and why she would want to start collecting with Original notes.
I was impressed to say the least,given the amount of people buying high value notes,and many more waiting to buy or ask questions on much more lucrative business transactions.
In closing,this man does not strike me as colluding with TPG comapnies for that shameful ;)word"profit"
But of course I could be wrong.
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I agree with twoinvallarta, Andrew @ CCGS is a honourable man. This is all done by experience. In the past, I bought some notes from some dealers claiming that it is in UNC or org UNC. When I got it, I found out it is not true. so I sent it to CCGS for grading turn out 1 in EF, some in AU and the rest at UNC60 ~ UNC63 (nothing at UNC64 or UNC65).
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You make good points...there are honorable people of course.
Collusion for profit may drive SOME, but not all of course. I should have been more clear. Andrew M.'s example is refreshing. Don O. is also another refreshing example.
I know what I am getting with an "Olmstead UNC", even though it doesn't come slabbed. For me, I only really buy notes that are Journey or sometimes Bird series, and that is what my expereince has been so far.
Sorry about my vagueness in my last post.
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A pressed Unc. is an uncirculated note left in the cheap holder and stored flat, as in a book. The TPG notes, when stored reasonably properly, will not gain that pressed look, we hope.
Proper storage methods are essential (has been discussed on this site).
CAND now has several members known for their paper ability. Gary Fedora, Tom Merritt, Don Olmstead, Charles Moore, Michael Findlay, Andy McKaig are some of them.
Rick
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At this point I am starting to lean A LOT in the direction of having my notes graded by PMG. Recently it seams that everything that is selling is doing so because it was slabbed by third party.
I try to grade and price as accurately as possible but since a lot of my items are high priced I am not moving them as fast as I could. I strongly believe that having them certified would encourage buyers to trust the grades and feel more comfortable. It is very hard to judge a note through a scan and a computer screen so this should serve as insurance of what you will be getting. Once you receive it, it can be removed from the holder for your closer inspection.
That’s my 2 cents
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At this point I am starting to lean A LOT in the direction of having my notes graded by PMG. Recently it seems that everything that is selling is doing so because it was slabbed by third party.
I try to grade and price as accurately as possible but since a lot of my items are high priced I am not moving them as fast as I could. I strongly believe that having them certified would encourage buyers to trust the grades and feel more comfortable. It is very hard to judge a note through a scan and a computer screen so this should serve as insurance of what you will be getting. Once you receive it, it can be removed from the holder for your closer inspection.
Why not offer your notes on eBay via the traditional auction route with a realistic starting price below or around the book value? In my experience, that's the best way to ACTUALLY SELL notes, assuming that you actually want to sell them! It all depends on what you paid for them, of course.
It seems to me that most potential buyers are very leery of "Buy-It-Now/Best Offer" items that are priced well over catalogue value whether they are third-party graded or not. As long as you have large high-resolution scans and you ADDRESS IN DETAIL the critical issues of washing, pressing, trimming and restoration then your notes will sell and you will generate cash flow for future purchases .... Good luck!
There are loads and loads of high-priced "Buy-It-Now/Best Offer" notes on eBay that have been up there for six months or longer and have remained unsold. It seems logical to conclude that these notes are overpriced, and I don't think third-party grading would help much in these cases.
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Thanks Ottawa
I will try that out, auctioning a few off. My margins may be tighter than other delers and I do a lot of research on ebay to have the best buy it now prices and still offer discounts. My problem is most likly that I base my prices on dealers that already have a large clientel such as Troy.
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I agree with Ottawa.
Although this isn't going to address your immediate need to sell: nothing better than having good feedback and a reliable reputation. As Ottawa suggests: if you sell unlike the others (overpriced, buy it now, or submit best offer formats) usually you tend to do well in the long run. Yes there may be some sold around what you paid or not as high as you want (or expect) but in the long run nothing works better than good feedback and a solid reputation.
My 2 cents....
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As I see it, there's a big difference between trying to sell something at "the going rate" and wanting to hold out for "top dollar". I would tend to hold out for top dollar on something that is truly exceptional or irreplaceable, e.g., one of the finest known examples of a particular note or the only known example of a particular note (as long as it's not a total rag). Thus, I wouldn't get excited by a Bank of Commerce $10 1935 note in UNC (replaceable) but a Bank of Commerce $10 1906 note in crisp original EF (essentially irreplaceable) would be an entirely different story.
When I'm trying to sell something I always remember what a very successful antiquarian book dealer once told me, i.e., "The best book is a sold book" and that goes for paper money and coins too. It all comes down to (1) whether the item is easily replaceable, and (2) whether you view yourself primarily as a dealer/seller or as a collector/buyer. Experienced dealers know that there will always be something interesting around the corner to buy so, generally speaking, they don't get too emotionally attached to their possessions. For dealers/sellers it's important to maintain a steady "cash flow" so that there's always money in the bank when something interesting comes along. On the other hand, dealers/sellers have to maintain a reasonable inventory because "you can't do business out of an empty wagon".
Once I have made the decision to sell an item I no longer worry too much about the final selling price (within reason). I have always been a firm believer of "letting the market decide" and that goes for traditional public auctions with a printed catalogue as well as eBay auctions. In my experience (since 1970) "it all comes out in the wash", i.e., you make unexpected gains when you sell some items but you may lose a bit (occasionally a lot!) on others. However, that's the way it's always been in any market, for example the gold and silver bullion markets and the stock market.
However long you have been in this hobby you will always make errors of judgment. Sometimes you will sell an item too cheaply because you didn't fully appreciate the item's scarcity or desirability (that's why the auction route is often the best) and you might overpay for an item because you didn't realize it had a hidden problem (we all tend to get a little "greedy" at times!)
When buying, it's important to remember that the "bargain" is not always in the price but in the opportunity to be able to buy the item. When I was much younger I missed out on several irreplaceable items because they seemed "too expensive" at the time, most notably a Dominion of Canada $5 1912 McCavour-Saunders Train note priced at $180 (that was in 1978 when that signature variety wasn't even known to exist --- now it's worth $25,000!) However, these days I never balk at the price (within reason) on something that really interests me and that I'm never likely to see again in my lifetime.
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Thanks again Ottawa for the very valuable advice. It seams as I am starting out that I cannot afford to lose too much money by risking notes in auction format. On the other hand I will not get anywhere without a strong clientel. I am still intrested in getting some of the better notes graded by third party. I would do so to simply to build confidence and reassurance of the note.
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Thanks again Ottawa for the very valuable advice. It seems as I am starting out that I cannot afford to lose too much money by risking notes in auction format. On the other hand I will not get anywhere without a strong clientele. I am still interested in getting some of the better notes graded by third party. I would do so simply to build confidence and reassurance of the note.
I have never ever sent out a coin or note for certification in the last 35 years. I realize that this is probably not considered "normal" behaviour these days but, as far as I'm aware, this has not caused me to suffer in any way. Perhaps I could have sold some items for a bit more by certifying them, but not necessarily. When I have grown tired of an item, or if I need some money for another purchase, then I sell off the item on eBay using the traditional auction format ---- it's fast and reliable in my experience. The idea of putting material into an eBay Store at an optimistically high price and leaving it there unsold for 6 to 12 months does not personally appeal to me. I often wonder how collectors would feel if they were subscribing to a mail-order dealer's monthly list and they saw the same items on offer month after month after month? It seems to me that the most successful retail dealers (both mail order dealers and bourse dealers) are those who sell their material at reasonable and attractive prices and who replenish their stock on a regular basis. This is the best way to keep customers happy, and a happy customer will always come back to you rather than search for greener pastures.
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Thanks again Ottawa for the very valuable advice. It seems as I am starting out that I cannot afford to lose too much money by risking notes in auction format. On the other hand I will not get anywhere without a strong clientele. I am still interested in getting some of the better notes graded by third party. I would do so simply to build confidence and reassurance of the note.
It seems to me that the most successful retail dealers (both mail order dealers and bourse dealers) are those who sell their material at reasonable and attractive prices and who replenish their stock on a regular basis. This is the best way to keep customers happy, and a happy customer will always come back to you rather than search for greener pastures.
Perfectly said Ottawa. This formula does not only apply to dealers of numismatic products but sellers of all products and services.
I'm tired of dealers trying to hit a home run with every sale.
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SHOW her the difference between an Original Unc and a pressed Unc
pressed Unc? What's that? Who would press an Unc note?
Anyhow, I think we're doing what BWJm said not to do, i.e. discuss seller's reputations.
Perhaps you should visit Dons table(s) at the next opportunity you have,he'll explain it to you ;) .Quite a bit more elequently than i would.
Just for the record,I was not commenting on anyones reputation,rather,I was expressing an opinion.
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Numerous posts have referenced profit motives of TPG,or greed for the sake of greed.I think different view points are healthy and add to the discussion.
Having not been a fan of TPG notes I'm slowly coming around to accept what the marketplace seems to be adopting.I've even purchased my first TPG note! Well over book I might add.
It's funny how we/someone can become so caught up in their self-importance that they suddenly believe they know how the paper money world should operate. Apparently poor collectors—if they really took Economics 101—did in fact see the textbook only from "across the room" and therefore have not heard of the "free market" concept. They evidently do not realize that whatever the market is willing to pay IS the correct price at that moment.
Was there any "relation" a few years back between a Cabbage Patch doll selling for hundreds of dollars and its worth,at least according to true cabbage patch collectors,the true cost of, perhaps, ten bucks? Did any of us write any posts back then decrying the unnaturally high prices of the toy industry?
Tell us,we that decry market forces: do you lose sleep worrying that an iPod selling for three hundred dollars is probably being produced in China for twenty? That's a markup of 1500%, fellas! Maybe we'd better place a call and lodge a complaint with the FTC!
Naturally, I could spend hours listing items that sell for prices out of all proportion—ooops! Many think a 10%, 50%, 100%, 200% ect. markup is... well, just too darned high. Never mind that for many years prior, lots of collectors were selling their paper at a LOSS—and a lot of them are no longer around to lament it.
These continual rants about pricing,brought up several different ways,over several months, may be one of the most useless—and patently obvious—statements I've heard in this paper bull market to date. Does it not go without saying that nothing can continue "forever"? Many of you admit that paper money prices can conceivably rise for years to come. So warning us that they cannot do so "forever" seems disingenuous. The fact that collectable paper money will likely rise for several more years is EXACTLY why we're invested in it,people! That's what we're all we're banking on: several more years. None of us supposes that paper money will rise indefinitely. We're merely heeding the clarion call of a powerful and important economic CYCLE. Are you not doing the same? C'mon now,be honest with yourself.
Perhaps it will trade lower in the days and weeks to come. But in the months and years ahead, it will in all likelihood trade many hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars higher,depending on quality of said note,rarity,grade,ect.
Of course you may disagree with my observations,that's what makes a discussion interesting.
In example,recently I let go of a $*VV '54 $1.00 at $13,500.Would TPG have increased the price? I highly doubt it,hard to improve on the unimproveable.Yet,it was well over book.I'd buy one in Original Unc,nicely centered right here and now for $10-$11,000. Would the seller be price gouging me? Not as far as I'm concerned.
I use the Charlton as a reference when it comes to pricing,but I do not make final buying decisions based onn a book that is 4-5 months behind the market at the point of sale.TPG pricing seems to command more,who am I to argue with the market.
An old proverb goes "It's hard to kick against the pricks"
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I think you're dead wrong. Many people treat this as a hobby, not a portfolio. You're out of touch with the average collector, my friend.
I know of many collectors that treat their notes as a portfolio. I also believe that many of the new collectors joining the hobby have the same taught in mind. When your buying notes ranging in the thousands of dollars you do not want to see it go down in value. Sure there is a risk but the recent gains are extremely favorable compared to the risks involved.
Some of my RRSP's have averaged out about 10-15% yearly, but many of my notes have double or tripled in price since 2003. This means that currently my notes are the more favorable investment. Sure it's still considered as a hobby but I would not invest nearly as much if it was a sinking investment. With third party grading on the rise and many of the US getting interested in Canadian banknotes the hobby may become more of a fund
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In my humble opinion, I would never treat notes as an investment. I'm doing way better with my investments, than I could ever do with notes. Think hockey cards in the 90's. They were supposed to be an "investment" too. No thank you, the Royal Bank, Tim Hortons and Canadian Tire get my investment money long before a Devil's Face $100, or a $25 bill. I've read the term market prices a few times in this thread, and it brings a couple of points to mind. The first is, we are living in an era of "easy money" and high liquidity with lots of money chasing riskier and riskier investments trying for higher and higher returns. With this in mind TPG begins to look like a vehicle to verify or lock high priced notes in at specifc price levels. It is not running "the market", but is instead a tool created by "the market" to satisfy a specific need. TPG will not save the price of bills if the market falls, and those notes may fall the hardest (Duth tulips, dot com stocks, Toyko real estate to name a few). The real test of TPG is going to be in getting market acceptance, will people use the service? Some peopel are, but will they use it after a down turn (will happen) and those users realize that it didn't protect their investment. Will note investors keep their nerve in the face of falling prices, lower returns, and mounting loses? It may also serve the function of splitting the note market into two seperate segments, true collectors and investors. As a collector I would never use the service, as the simple UNC, AU, EF, F, VG, G system works for me. It is also unlikely that I would ever buy a TPG note, as I am only buying it to have it, so there is no reason to worry about protecting my investment. Kind of like buying beer. I don't think TPG is ruining the hobby, but it may very well change it. This is the point where we as a community decide what role we want to play on an individual level. I am a collector and the best case scenario for me is that in the distant future a grand child or grand children get a note collection to admire and continue, or they get their university paid for with the proceeds of it's sale. Someone else can worry about that.
[smiley=beer.gif]
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Quote:
"I have no doubt that there are some collectors who cling to their Charlton bibles and believe the only right price is the one printed in a catalogue. They are entitled to their opinions and they are also entitled to miss opportunities to buy notes that are underpriced in the catalogue when they become available on the "free market". However, how does this "free market" work in explaining how certain individuals are putting notes in their stores at mark-ups of several times the catalogue and well clear of any "free market" prices realized in the recent past? We're not talking just *V/V notes and anything else that costs over 10k. We're talking bird series radars for $200+, we're talking low to mid-grade Princess Pat $1 notes at double catalogue, etc."
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I think you've answered your own question.The free market allows the seller to list at whatever they wish,whether fair to you or me aside.But in a free market,you and I chose to pass on the sale of said notes,so the seller re-lists,or lowers the price till a sale is made. Indeed we're not just talking 10k plus notes,but listing price in a free market is neither here nor there.
Quote.
"So how do these overpriced notes sitting in some eBay sellers' stores for 12-18 months at a time on a constant spin cycle have any relation to the "free market"? What is this free market, anyway?"
Please see above.
Quote:
"Like I said in another post, I don't want to have my uncertified notes pulled down in value because buyers are gradually becoming suspicious of anything NOT in a PMG holder. "
That is a concern I concur with,will ungraded notes lose credibility with new buyers? That is/could become a major problem.
Quote:
"I think you're dead wrong. Many people treat this as a hobby, not a portfolio. You're out of touch with the average collector, my friend. "
Yes,I agree wholeheartedly,about treating this as a hobby that is.You stated I'm out of touch with the average collector---oh really?Let's examine this for a moment shall we.You may even wish to look at your own thoughts and conclusions again.
I started in this hobby,fascinated with paper money,in 1991 or thereabouts.Loved the designs,colours,ect of 1954 series and older,more than the modern notes.
I bought an Original Unc 1935 $100 for,if memory serves correctly, $1500.That note today is worth $9500.00.
At the time of purchase I had no idea of investment potential or percentage returns of paper money.Yet,had someone told me I could buy that note in 1 years time(1993) for $750.00,a 50% discount I would have been a fool and daft to pay a 50% premium to own this note when in a years time I could receive two for my viewing pleasure!
Stay with me here.Let's look at another example.The 1954 Mod.$2.00 *OG.In 2003 15th Charlton this note is valued at $55.00.Move forward to the 2007 Charlton 19th Edition.The same note is now valued at $90.00.
If I purchased this note 4 years ago,do I expect my money to just stagnate and lose value?Should this note have dropped to $25.00 today would I be happy looking at it as a wise addition to my collection at the time?I think not.
Shoulda waited 4 years and added the note 50% lower.
There are examples of course where notes have dropped in value,and a balance is achieved because of the notes that rise in value.
So my point is,WE ALL look at this as investment potential,whether admitted or not.To do anything less would be a dis-service to ourselves and our families.The joy of this hobby is a given.Making money at something you love and enjoy is a privilege.
What would our(grand) children think if we left them an inheritance worth half the value of the purchase price of all our goods? Of course this takes place in many areas,furniture,cars,clothes ect. Not in our homes,investments--and paper money is an investment.It may be secondary to the love of the hobby,but it is an investment.
Otherwise why not sell your notes for book 2003 17th Edition prices.I've yet to see a hobbyist/collector do that!
It's not all about the money.Just ask a forum member I met at the Feb Torex.He's young,intelligent,and fun.Also a skilled negotiator! I sold him 12 consecutive notes that have current book of $180.each.
After alot of fun,I parted with them at 30% below book.I know full well I could have waited and received well over current book value.Especially if I TPG'd them.
I do not need the money,actually didnt even WANT the money.Yet it was with a great deal of satisfaction that we made this transaction-because I liked him,plain and simple.I suppose that is the hobby part of this paper collecting we do..
And the free market in action-sometimes we go up,sometimes we go down.
rachelsprivates,I thought you'd respond to my post.I'm truly glad you did,you always give me pause to consider another side.And I might add,you articulate your thoughts with facts and opinions that any thinking individual must consider if they wish to learn and grow.
I'm very interested in hearing others opinions-Is this purely a hobby,or is it a hobby with investment potential? Will TPG'd notes add to your returns? What are your expectations with your notes?Do you care if you lost 50% on a purchase?Lord knows I have, even 70% on some.
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I can certainly understand why some people like to have their notes certified by PMG or other grading companies. Firstly, it probably makes it easier for sellers to sell their notes online. Secondly, it may make buyers more confident when buying an item online. That's all well and good and entirely understandable. However, I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT UNDERSTAND why a PMG graded note should be worth 50% or more than the same uncertified note!! It's sheer lunacy in my opinion. I can understand adding on the cost of the certification, or perhaps $50, but when I see comments on eBay such as "Grab these PMG graded Canadian notes before they get out of sight! " I'm at a total loss. Is it the note or the holder that is being sold????
To summarize, I can understand that third-party grading may FACILITATE A SALE, but I cannot for the life of me understand why a PMG certified note should be worth 50% or more than an uncertified note, especially since PMG grades tend to be at least half a grade higher than their Canadian counterparts.
A "PMG-67" $1 1937 Coyne-Towers note recently sold for CDN$405.00 on eBay (the Charlton catalogue value is a mere CDN$70.00 in Unc!!). Was the high bidder paying for the note itself or for the grade stated on the holder?? A big problem with TPG notes is that you really cannot verify the grade on the holder without cutting the note out of the holder, i.e., you don't know for sure what you're actually getting. The large majority of PMG graded notes that I've seen on eBay (including two that I actually purchased) have been overgraded by at least half a grade in my opinion (relative to Canadian grading standards). For example, I recently saw a note that was graded by PMG as "AU" that had clearly rounded corners ....
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Hamner,here's another point of view I lifted from a U.S seller of $500-$10,000 notes.He describes his business as the largest US seller of large denomination notes:
"Over the last several years millions of dollars have been pouring into numismatics as thousands of dealers, collectors, and frankly, investors feel that this is one of the best markets for cash reserves. In addition, the potential for profits is well above any other form of savings or investing. Granted, you need to take baby steps as you learn ; it is a tricky business and we all need to learn which coins have potential versus the ones that may remain stagnant or dwindle in value over time. As intelligent buyers you need to know which grading services command the greatest respect and potentially the highest value for your coins. This is one of the easiest aspects of the coin business. Simply call around the country and ask dealers which coins they favor when it comes to buying and selling. The overwhelming answer is NGC and PCGS. Any other grading service is normally discounted from these two services.
He also states that NEW collectors should and MUST buy TPG'd notes as a safety net against fraud.
You also stated:
"No thank you, the Royal Bank, Tim Hortons and Canadian Tire get my investment money long before a Devil's Face $100, or a $25 bill. I've read the term market prices a few times in this thread, and it brings a couple of points to mind. The first is, we are living in an era of "easy money" and high liquidity"
As a student of the markets(I make a living via the markets),I can tell you your examples do NOT quite tell the whole story.TIM HORTONS FOR EXAMPLE:Started trading in April 06.Had you bought that very day at the LOW you'd have paid $29.92 cnd. Had you sold at Fridays average trades of $35.00,with a .28cent dividend yoy.returns realized might be in the neighbourhood of 20%.Not bad but not enough history to judge as a long term investment.Also there are Capital Gain taxes and numerous other factors to consider when calculating the overall net return to any individual.I have my thoughts but........Lets take a note,the C/T DF $100 in Unc --the 06 to 07 prices gives us approx. 20% return.
Let's look at Royal Bank,something with a much longer history.In 2001 Royal could be had for about $24 dollars.At Fridays close of $56 and change returns in the last 6 years,minus dividends = about 144%.
As we are comparing blue chip stocks,let's compare the same DF note price in 2001,at $300.00.At $975 that is a return of about 230%.
Canadian Tire has been a horrific stock story the last 52 weeks.Had you bought last April at $132.00 you'd have lost approx.$44,000 dollars for EVERY 1000 shares you owned!!! at a close of $88.00 on Friday.
Going back to April, 01 CTC.TO could be had at $38.00.With Fridays close your return minus any dividends comes out to 130%,excluding Capital Gains and various other factors to net you a return.
All said and done,notes can return a high percentage for investment purposes.Dont even get me started on the nightmare of Mutual Fund losses that took place in years past if you owned them more than the last 15 years.
Best to spread a little here and there,eggs in several baskets.
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Nicely said twoinvallarta ;)
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I don't dispute that the "free market" allows anyone to ask any price of any note. The problem I am seeing is that some people are being influenced by the asking prices, and the dividing line between what a note is realistically worth and what the high-profile sellers are asking for their notes is being blurred. The Charlton catalogue has resisted the temptation to take into account what some dealers are asking when determining value. This is right in my opinion. You can't let speculation become the new reality. There are certain sellers who would rewrite the catalogues to suit their deluded ideas of what some notes are worth. If we start believing a note is worth whatever someone sais it is worth, not what someone is willing to pay, then the hobby is lost.
I agree with the comments made by Ottawa. What are we accomplishing by putting notes in fancy holders? The high prices being realized for TPG notes may be a knee-jerk response to something new and exciting, but if it ever becomes widely known that TPG notes are not all they are purported to be, watch out below.
Let us not forget that the notes sought by collectors and investors come from the same pool of existing notes. Putting a note in a TPG holder does not change the note itself. Merely our perception of the note changes. Amazing as it may seem, taking a note out of a TPG sealed holder yields the same note that went into the holder.
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Sorry. I wanted to quote the last sentence in rachelsprivates' post but accidentally posted the whole comment.
I have often wondered whether the note coming out of the holder is the same one as the one going in. What are the effects over time. Say a note with foxing is sealed. Does the fungi grow in the anaerobic environment inside the holder and compound the foxing?
Do notes get pressed inside the holder with passage of long periods of time?
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Indeed
Ok, Canadian Tire may not have been the best example (don't actually own those). Investing in the market is about hitting singles, lot of singles. The Royal Bank was actually a double for me, bought in a good price watched it rise, and then it split (cha ching) ;). I too have mutual fund horror stories, and then well Nortel and Bombardier (ouch and ouch). Hit a homer with Telus 800% before dividends. In my view, paper money is not an investment. While the figures you quote are very nice, the DF note is not nearly as liquid as the stocks are. Royal Bank stocks can be sold at a profit in minutes if something better comes along. You cannot move a DF $100 like that, and an oppourtunity is lost. Oppourtunity costs are hidden, but run the numbers and they can be scary. In addition a DF $100 cannot be used in the financial market place as collateral to open a margin account, buy a house, open an RRSP, RESP, or get your friend or yourself out of jail. To "the market" outside of collectors it's worth $100.
I also don't see the point in spending $20 (don't even know the cost of this service) to get a Birds $5 RADAR note graded, that I paid $15 for? It's worth $5 worst case scenario, what value is there to protect? I purchased a very nice $50 Journey insert/change over for $75, from a forum member. Is there any value in increasing the cost of this item by a further 25%? Again, if the market tanks, it's worth $50 and no TPG certification is going to protect the value of this bill in a down market.
At the same time nothing I've read in this thread indicates to me that there is consistent grading practises among TPG's. The quote you put in from the coin dealer "He also states that NEW collectors should and MUST buy TPG'd notes as a safety net against fraud." reinforces that only TPG grading can be trusted. I might say, check your source. It is in a dealers best interest to make a statement like that, that is their business after all and TPG items command a greater markup. I'd trust the grading of most forum members (including yours by the way) ahead of any TPG company grading Canadian paper.
The crux of this discussion comes down to two very different points of view, based on different experiences. From other posts you've made, I'm quite sure you and I are not in the same league in terms of collecting paper money. For the notes you are buying, TPG may be an instrument to ensure a certain price level for higher value items. For me and the small money put in, it offers little or no value and only adds to the overall expense of hobby. It is an expensive hobby, even at the small level I deal at. This also reinforces what I said earlier, maybe TPG breaks the hobby into two segments, those who collect and those who invest. This does not mean that if you fall into the invest category, that you cannot enjoy collecting too.
In my mind if someone offered me $100 000 in liquid non collectable money or the same in DF $100's, I'd be taking the boring stuff and paying off my house, dropping some in boring Royal Bank stocks, and building a sauna at camp on the Manitoulin Island.
[smiley=beer.gif]
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All markets move in cycles. The price of real estate in New York in 1973 was lower than the price in 1929. That is a LONG time to wait to break even on what is considered a traditional "investment" although of course you need a house to live in and it generally serves a primary purpose other than investment. Those who have invested in mutual funds over the past 12-15 years have recently just broken even in the past year or two. So stocks are not as liquid as they seem unless you plan to get out regardless of what loss you want to take. The past few years in the stock market should not be taken as the usual course of events. Notes always have a buyer in a fire sale as well.
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I forgot to add that if anyone needs a reminder of how stock markets behave, recall the day in spring 2000 I believe, when the Nasdaq dropped 25% in a few hours. It was horrific to watch. In a bear market, ALL stocks get killed, the good with the bad. In those bear markets, liquidity is not a good thing because prices plummet while illiquid investments drop in value more slowly as they just do not sell. eg, with the recent slowdown in housing in the US, prices have not plummeted, just come down a bit because people do not dump their real estate like they dump stocks. Now if the same sentiment were applied to the stock market, prices would plummet.
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I guess we're veering pretty far off course
The title thread " Private Note Grading Ruining The Hobby "
I only deleved into this thread because PMG seems to be the primary 3rd party grader
and I have not been happy.
There is nothing wrong with 3rd party grading. I see it as being a useful tool. But they have to know how to grade.
A Canadian company with a high profile would be a good thing. Someone who grades by Canadian Standards.
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Suggest you use Andy McKaig for grading Canadian Paper Money, rather than a foreign grading company.
Rick
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Hi Rick,
Question:I agree Andy McKaig is better than foreign companies.I've met him,found him knowledgeable,personable,likeable,and helpful.
Someone put in my mind once that the problem with Andrews grading company is the fact he sells notes,he grades them himself only.with no second or third opinions.
How would you address this?
Thanks for any insight you can provide
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I forgot to add that if anyone needs a reminder of how stock markets behave, recall the day in spring 2000 I believe, when the Nasdaq dropped 25% in a few hours. It was horrific to watch. In a bear market, ALL stocks get killed, the good with the bad. In those bear markets, liquidity is not a good thing because prices plummet while illiquid investments drop in value more slowly as they just do not sell. eg, with the recent slowdown in housing in the US, prices have not plummeted, just come down a bit because people do not dump their real estate like they dump stocks. Now if the same sentiment were applied to the stock market, prices would plummet.
Agreed jasper.This is shark infested territory,where the billionaires play,where trillions of dollars exchange hands every day world wide.The manipulation in stocks goes on everyday.It is designed to seperate the novice from his money on a continual basis.
Unless you know how things work,and I MEAN REALLY WORK behind the scenes you'd best stay away.Consider RRSP's,biggest scam going,and the gov knows it.
Wanna be a player?? When you can answer what derivatives are,black box selling,when you can tell me what Iceberg selling is(look out below!),how lease rates on the yen effect Canadian miners,when you understand market maker holding of tickets,when you graspgold going up,the US dollar going up,oil up,and Canadian miners down,you have STARTED to get a small grasp on the market. If you can wrap your mind around why Microsoft MSFT traded at $22 recently,yet they have a larger market share,higher revenues,and bigger profits than when they traded $40.00.you're getting a start on the issues(It had to do with Gates,his actions).
It is infested,not invested and anyone who made money and kept it is either privvy to the info or is just plain lucky.But luck runs out.
As a very knowledgeable insider once told me" If you play in another mans game,you will eventually lose."
I'll invest in paper notes,heck even TPG graded notes before I throw money at a dart board called the stock market.I make my living from it but I do not buy deals I'm not involved in.Its really not what you know,but who you know.....but I digress....
TPG has "hot" money flowing into it,just as we follow money flow into stock markets,I see huge money flows in to paper money and droplets going to TPG notes...we shall see...but it's not a bubble.....yet!
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PMG and the other American grading companies must surely know that their grading standards (i.e., American grading standards) are significantly different from the grading standards prevailing in some other countries. It is well established that grading standards in Australia, Canada and Europe (especially Scandinavia) are much stricter than in the United States. This is a demonstrated fact, not idle gossip! It doesn't mean that American standards are bad, it just means that they're different. The most important thing is that buyers know exactly what to expect when they buy, for example, a "PMG AU-58" note (is it a Canadian EF or a Canadian AU?) And what about a "PMG AU-50"? (is that only a VF+ on the Canadian scale??)
In view of the above, whenever PMG is grading non-American paper money I feel that it behooves them to print some sort of disclaimer or warning on the back of their plastic holders, for example something like this:
"This item has been graded by PMG according to established American grading standards. It is important to remember that grading standards in some countries may differ from those prevailing in the United States."
The only thing I personally like about PMG grading is the high-quality plastic holders! Unfortunately, though, I like to actually touch my notes from time to time and grade them by holding them up obliquely to real sunlight. You just can't do these things when the note is encased in plastic. It seems to me that it is inevitable that a large proportion of TPG notes will eventually be removed from their holders by inquisitive collectors ...... 8-)
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Uh-huh. Are you sincerely expecting the Americans to admit that their grading standards are more lax compared to other countries? That would be like Ford or Chrysler admitting that the resale value of their cars are much lower than Japanese cars. It will never happen.
That's a superb analogy and I cannot argue with that! I guess American grading standards will slowly become dominant around the world (just like English is slowly becoming the dominant language around the world). In fact, it would be undeniably advantageous if every country in the world used the same grading standards, even if those standards were to be less strict than the currently-prevailing Canadian standards. The most important thing in the long run is that we have consistency. If Canadian dealers and collectors persist in sending their notes to American TPG companies then American grading will slowly but surely start to take hold in this country. In fact, the diffusion of laxer American grading standards into Canada has already started. It will be difficult or impossible to stop in the long run.
The onus is on the collector of average intelligence to exercise their cerebral mechanism and realize that it is not a good idea to submit foreign coins or paper money to any company. For instance, I would never trust ICCS to grade British coins, especially hammered and early milled coins. It's not their specialty!
Again, these are erudite comments. Unfortunately, though, there will always be some collectors and dealers who want to have the very highest grade possible assigned to their notes and coins so there will always be a demand for the services offered by those grading services that have the least strict grading standards.
All of this reminds me of Gresham's Law of Economics. i.e., "Bad Money Drives Out Good Money (from circulation)." I suppose we could adapt that Law to the present situation .... "BAD GRADING DRIVES OUT GOOD GRADING" .... and it's Oh So True!!
Perhaps ICCS and Mr. McKaig could somehow join forces to create a uniquely-Canadian paper money grading service?
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I recently purchased this note myself on EBay.
I deliberately picked a lowish value note graded at 65.
When I get it I'm gonna cut it out for examination
You cannot properly grade a note in the holder
I'll report back my findings
Well I have to be completely honest. I have been somewhat jaded by PMG and thier grading.
But I promised last week to report back on this note. I got it today and cut er out of the nice folder.
UNC65
I have to admit it's one of the nicest 37 notes I have ever seen.
Great embossing and no signs of any kind of a press or doctoring of any kind.
There MAYBE the TINEST flick.
Not really sure though because the note is a LITTLE ripply around the serials and signature
but that is because the embossing is sooo deep.
A 1937 $ 1 Coyne/Towers W/N Short Run. Paid just over book at $ 120.
I'm Throughly satisfied with the grade, price and the fact that this is a pretty tough prefix.
Andrew
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I have had the impression for some while now that PMG is better suited to grading high grade notes (UNC-60 and better) than lower grade notes (AU and below). More to the point, PMG seems unable to handle the lower grades in a consistent manner. Just take a look at the following PMG VF-30 EPQ note that I came across recently on eBay. In particular, study the BACK of the note .... and it was awarded the cherished EPQ ("Exceptional Paper Quality") designation into the bargain!
I would personally question both the VF grade and the EPQ designation in this case, although the front of the note admittedly passes muster. I guess it all goes to confirm that there can be a h-u-g-e difference between the "technical" grade of a note and its "aesthetic" grade.
{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/3/24/PMG_VF30_EPQ.jpg}
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They got the signatures wrong on the case! (Re: Rachelsprivate's post)
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Does anyone notice anything wrong with the following image?
{http://www.give-a-buck.com/special/DC-26h.jpg}
Yeah, PMG would certainly do well to learn the difference between a DC-26h and a DC-26i. Wonder if the owner of this will say it's a rare error note where the Campbell-Sellar signature combo was printed on a McCavour-Saunders note? ::) Might work if he tries it on eBay! ;)
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I didn't see that, I was thinking it looks trimmed.
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http://www.give-a-buck.com/paper/freakshow.html
It would appear that give-a-buck material is popular with some members. Here is some good ones with comments attached.
Rick
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What a great site! Very amusing images of errors that you would think are real...and then discover are manufactured through Adobe Photoshop!
I couldn't agree more with is comments on the faded $2.00 note from a less than scrupulous dealer. It is too bad there's people passing off notes as legitimate errors when they're nothing of the kind. I think the community is too small and well informed to let a few bad dealers to continue unabated. Eventually, even first time buyers will get wise to him.
On his home page "Give-a-buck" (GAB) alludes to how one would expect the internet (technology) to unite the collecting community -- when instead he feels its caused divisions. I think that's a bit drastic. We have all seen how a few unscrupulous sellers can over-grade, pass off faded or tampered notes as errors, etc to make a profit, but in the long run I think the technology is a great tool to keep all of us informed of what kind of shady business is actually taking place out there. I'm sure its been going on all along and now we're becoming more aware of it. Also the Internet can in fact disseminate info on how to spot such problems, to be vigilant, and to watch out for certain sellers. I would say the Internet (and sites like this or GAB's) provides a great leveler, and keeps the playing ground a little more honest.
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Except the $5 note with two differnt serial numbers in odd places.
This note was owned by me and sold to the foremost expert in paper money errors, Tom Merritt.
He is convinced it is real, and so am I. Having the note in hand with experts to view it is a whole lot different than sitting back taking stabs at the whole world. There are actual experts out here.
Convince us that we are wrong.
Rick
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Hi Rick,
Question:I agree Andy McKaig is better than foreign companies.I've met him,found him knowledgeable,personable,likeable,and helpful.
Someone put in my mind once that the problem with Andrews grading company is the fact he sells notes,he grades them himself only.with no second or third opinions.
How would you address this?
Thanks for any insight you can provide
I have heard discussion of this before. It could be a problem, but I don't think it should be. So long as the grading is standard and up to snuff. The graders reputation would be tarnished very quickly if he were to start overgrading his own stock. Just because it's in a holder doesn't really make a lot of difference to me. So far I have bought about 6-7 graded notes and I have cut them all out.
The fact that he grades his own notes is irrelavant. All dealer grade thier own notes. They just don't have them in fancy holders stating the official grade.
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I have no answer to the question about a dealer grading his own stuff, and not showing others the note(s) before assigning a grade to it. Andrew is a CAND member, and is following all our rules properly. Unless there would be a problem, I see none right now.
Rick
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There is a good reason why Andy McKaig has a good reputation for grading.
He is known to be very accurate, and there is confidence in him due to this fact (among others I am sure).
I will be clear: I have never really met him before, but I have seen him. To my knowledge, he does not know me. However, the mounting evidence towards the legitimacy and accuracy of his grading tell me allI need to know (if I was to get a note TPG'd). Secondly, from what I can tell, the integrity of the grader becomes apparant in their "grading assignment".
Mr. McKaig is well known and respected in his area. From what I know, he has not bought into the tempting opportunity to take advantage of unknowing collectors by overgrading and misrepresenting notes.
Having never met the guy yet, I have an opinion formed of him based on what I believe are his motives with TPG. Those motives IMO are not sheer profit, unlike the message I get from certain other companies. This makes me feel confident in the accuracy of Andy's grading, and integrity as a person. Having said that, we might meet and we mayhaveour differences (as anyone could with anyone) - but that does not undermine the fact that he does what he does properly and accurately... from all that I know and have heard.
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If we get back to how the Charlton expresses how we should grade, on page ix of the 19th edition it shows about the sidenotes we should mention:
Counting creases
Edge defects
Tears (rips.... not like boo hoo tears)
Pinholes
Stain
Smudges
Crayon marks
Writing
Missing corners
Rubber stamp impressions
Any repairs: sticky tape, scoth tape, stamp hinges
Chemical damage, paste or glue from attatchment to a page
Poorly centered or badly trimmed edges.
We really do not need to "Re-invent" the wheel. It is already a part of our grading system, but I suspect that this part is often overlooked.
If every note was examined in detail, with these aspects at the center of examinatio, above the shape of the paper body, then grading would be much more accurate.
This puts it squarely in the hands of.... US. Each and every one of us.
Now, in regards to Journey notes in particular. UNC notes are not always pretty notes. There is:
UNC with cutting cup (CBN)/manufacturers indent (BABN)
UNC without these defects
UNC with or without these defects, but with light banding imprints.
All three of these cases are UNC "clean and crisp as issued..." (Charlton Description of UNC).
Beyond this, there is the issue of "Rippling". Many new Journey notes have than verticle ripple (or two) to varying degrees.
Now, Mr. Troy McDonald (aka Themonetaryman) had suggested using a three teired grading system for UNC. He has since resigned from this suggestion, and has moved into pushing PMG notes (based on more lax American Standards). Note: This is all public information - available in the archives of this site, and on ebay.
Since the collecting community was slow to make any decisions (which probably WAS the safe decision) in regards to how to handle TPG notes, we seen two main roads being followed.
1) The road to TPG by PMG and American Standards (and we all know about their grading issues)
2) The road of TPG by Canadian Standards.
Obviously #2 is going to be less luctrative (but also is the non-exploitive route).
Now that the hobby in Canada is getting more notes TPG'd, we can say "it all comes out in the wash". After many months of free market TPG note companies or people, we can now see the flaws and benifits. We can also see the people who are in it for the accuracy of the hobby vs the people who are in it to take the money and run.
With the CPMS not making any decision towards setting up a TPG company of its own, we are left with the private sector. This is a good thing after all, beacuse it will enforce accountability.
Last I checked, TPG notes from PMG are NOT selling red red hot (as is suggested by certain ebay user's "about me" page). That again is just a sales device used to reel you in for the kill.
"I make the best hamburgers in the world" - truthfully, if I didn't have a George Foreman Grill, or a special lady friend, nary a hamburger would ever get made in my house. BUT the quote might make you think for half a second that I am a pretty good chef...
But I digress....
To finish addressing the TPG notes, I want to draw the attention back to HOW we should tier the UNC designation. Here is my suggestion (in line with what was tossed around last year). This applies specifically to the Journey Series. There are basically three levels. I will use the 60-63-65 system, since that seemed to be what was most popular.
UNC "65" - essentially a perfect note. Just like the Charlton describes on page viii of the 19th edition.
It has NO "as issued" defects (ripples, cups/indents, banding imprints). Note: Banding imprints are an "as issued" defect, not neccessarily an "as made" defect.
UNC "63" - Would be an UNC 65 note, however,
a) it has the normal cutting cup (CBN) or manufacturers imprint (BABN) OR
b) it has a minor rippling. (of course here comes the interpretations ;) )
UNC "60" -
a) Would be an UNC 63 note PLUS a minor banding imprint
b) Would be an UNC 63 note but with pronounced rippling
c) Would be an UNC 65 note, but has pronouced banding indenting.
PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.
In summary, I believe that the Charlton Standard is good, but since UNC are
coming in varing degrees of imperfection, we need to specify the defects in descriptive words, so the public knows exactly what the note is like.
Why re-invent the wheel?
This (additional note description) is recommended already from the Charlton Catalogue, page ix, 19th ed.
If the wheel is already re-invented, and number grades are assigned, then this is how I see the three divisions of UNC (in the Journey series).
Just trying to be proactive here so that we can come to a unified consensus for the betterment of the hobby. If TPG notes (Journey series) followed a guideline such as this, then do you see it being more uniform?
Comments please.
H
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Andrew MaKaig does it pretty well. His grades seem to satisfy the sellers and customers. All the rest of those buying have their own opinions of how to grade a note, but most of the rest know little. One needs to rely on expert 3rd party grading. Until there is something better, stick with what you have.
Rick
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Andrew MaKaig does it pretty well. His grades seem to satisfy the sellers and customers. All the rest of those buying have their own opinions of how to grade a note, but most of the rest know little. One needs to rely on expert 3rd party grading. Until there is something better, stick with what you have.Rick
How much more complicated and confusing is TPG going to become?! I still haven't seen a written definition of what constitutes, for example, a PMG AU-55 as opposed to a PMG AU-58. PMG's numerical grades (VF-20, VF-30, VF-35, EF-40, EF-45, AU-50, AU-55, AU-58, UNC-60, UNC-63, UNC-65, UNC-66, UNC-67, etc.) are thrown around all over the place but no one really knows what they mean. At least Mr. McKaig has made a valiant effort to define the numerical grades employed by CCGS.
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How much more complicated and confusing is TPG going to become?! I still haven't seen a written definition of what constitutes, for example, a PMG AU-55 as opposed to a PMG AU-58. PMG's numerical grades (VF-20, VF-30, VF-35, EF-40, EF-45, AU-50, AU-55, AU-58, UNC-60, UNC-63, UNC-65, UNC-66, UNC-67, etc.) are thrown around all over the place but no one really knows what they mean. At least Mr. McKaig has made a valiant effort to define the numerical grades employed by CCGS.
I believe he is doing a good job, and has the credibility to grade properly and slab the notes to others satisfaction. He is certainly doing a good job on what he knows best, which is Canadian paper. US graders may call them something different, which may be different than Canadian methods. Buy Canadian.
If there is a dispute by a buying member of the public over a grade of a banknote sold by a CAND dealer, we would use this grading company to settle a dispute, just as we use ICCS for coins.
Rick
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Here's an interesting PMG UNC-62 note that has come up short on the EPQ front and has earned the dubious "RESTORATION" designation. It's not obvious to me what the restoration refers to although the note has very obviously been trimmed, and poorly trimmed at that. It also has a prominent diagonal fold line at the bottom-left corner in the scan below. It's an Osborne signature and the Buy-It-Now/Best Offer price on eBay is US$53390.00 (Charlton catalogue value in AU is CDN$2500.00).
{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/3/26/Osborne.jpg}
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There is a dispute mechanism in place.
The dealer control committee looks after problems, if any. The chair is Bill Merkley of London Coin centre, and members are Willard Burton, Don Olmstead and Yvon Chiccoine. There is a method to follow, and it works.
The DCC looks after problems. If a note was deemed to be overgraded, then the collector would be refunded. There is no other system in place in any organization. CPMS and the CNA do not take any active role in a dispute.
If you see a problem, ask a specific question. I can and will answer it.
We do not have a particular grading method for dealers, just as we do not have a specific return policy, but handle any disputes using professional judgement.
Instead of using CAND dealers with some ethics, continue getting burned by kids selling on eBay, the choice is yours.
Rick
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You can forgive me all you want. At least I have the balls to be identified.
It is my function as CAND President to promote our people above others. I will continue to promote and defend our people.
The entire CAND by-laws and constitution is not on our web site, just some of the material is on the site. I also sell on eBay, through the mails and supply a company that sells promotional material. I am also a licensed autioneer and run a show. CAND members include show operators, paper money dealers, coin dealers and bullion dealers. We attempt to cover as many different types as are willing to join us. To be a member, one needs to be voted in place by the entire membership.
We would like to have more members. Problem is there are not that many out there. Far too many with no ethics.
Instead of slamming everyone in the world, try promoting something of value.
Rick
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Hopefully bringing this thread back to the topic:
like sellers anywhere: if they want your long-term business, they will try to do things right
1. This is how it shakes out. Know your seller, and to whose standards they apply their decisions.
2. There are reasons why some graders are "known" for their grading. Good or bad. And we the buyers can vote with our wallets.
As rscoins says, Buy Canadian. I think he means, buy Canadian so that you don't get ripped off by someone working on a different standard.
This has been an excellent thread so far. To me it appears as though we all understand that there are "sketchy" grades coming out of certain companies, and solid grades coming out of others.
The best we can do is share our knowledge and experience with people so that no one gets exploited.
Peace on earth, and in forum,
Hudson
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At the end of the day, when you think about it carefully, it's a great shame that such excessive importance is attached to condition, and that goes for both paper money and coins. Of course an EF is usually preferable to a VF and an UNC is usually preferable to an EF. However, why aren't we just satisfied with an UNC-60 instead of an UNC-63, etc.? Why is it that some people are willing to pay many multiples of the UNC-60 price for the privilege of owning an item having a few less bag marks or handling marks? I still think that it's the "aesthetic grade" (i.e., the overall attractiveness and eye appeal) that will win out in the long run over the "technical grade" (i.e., the quality of the paper alone). Who wants a "technical" Unc note with stains or very narrow margins? Who wants a technical MS-63 copper coin with carbon spots and stains --- and there are lots of those around.
In some respects we are own worst enemies when it comes to the relationship between grading and pricing. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that most human beings tend to be greedy by nature ....... whether we like to admit it or not.
We must never forget that "PERFECTION IS AN IDEAL, NOT A REALITY" (I read these very erudite words on the web site of a well-known eBay seller, and I take no credit for them).
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......... I still think that it's the "aesthetic grade" (i.e., the overall attractiveness and eye appeal) that will win out in the long run over the "technical grade" (i.e., the quality of the paper alone). Who wants a "technical" Unc note with stains or very narrow margins? Who wants a technical MS-63 copper coin with carbon spots and stains --- and there are lots of those around.
Here are some very refreshing comments that appeared in a March 2007 Banknote Reporter advertisement for the CGA (Currency Grading & Authentication Co.) which is one of the American TPG services. These comments are a real joy to read!
"Currency grading is something acquired only after years of careful examination of all types of paper money."
"Different notes have different characteristics. Paper quality, inks, cutting procedures, all play an important role as to determining grade."
"Grading is not as simple as finding a fold or two." (!!)
However, I prefer to reserve judgment on the following comment:
"When selling CGA material, at auction, on the Internet, I know I can realize 25%-50% more in a C.G.A. graded holder." ::)
{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/3/30/1174341407842_00.jpg}
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A lot of PMG-graded notes have been showing up on eBay in the last few months and they have been appearing in sufficient quantities to allow bidders to get a quantitative feel of the differences between PMG's grading standards and Charlton's grading standards. The scan below illustrates an important example.
This note was graded as GEM UNC-66 EPQ by PMG even though there appears to be a very obvious counting crease at the right-hand side. Whether or not this is a "typical" PMG GEM UNC-66 I don't know for sure but it does seem to confirm the widely-held view that PMG grading standards are far less strict than Charlton grading standards. On the Charlton scale I feel that this note would be an AU/UNC at best. Moreover, there may be other handling marks on this note that are not evident from the scan.
{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/4/12/PMG_UNC66.jpg}
I encourage Forum members to post their own scans to illustrate the differences (or similarities as the case may be) between PMG and Charlton grading standards.
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When I looked on ebay it expired I believe.! It Didn't actually sell did it?
FRIEDSQUID
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A lot of PMG-graded notes have been showing up on eBay in the last few months and they have been appearing in sufficient quantities to allow bidders to get a quantitative feel of the differences between PMG's grading standards and Charlton's grading standards. The scan below illustrates an important example.
This note was graded as GEM UNC-66 EPQ by PMG even though there appears to be a very obvious counting crease at the right-hand side. Whether or not this is a "typical" PMG GEM UNC-66 I don't know for sure but it does seem to confirm the widely-held view that PMG grading standards are far less strict than Charlton grading standards. On the Charlton scale I feel that this note would be an AU/UNC at best. Moreover, there may be other handling marks on this note that are not evident from the scan.
{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/4/12/PMG_UNC66.jpg}
I encourage Forum members to post their own scans to illustrate the differences (or similarities as the case may be) between PMG and Charlton grading standards.
They are very inconsistent. I got a 65 that was great. See earlier post in this thread. I bought a few others that were well graded and a couple that were graded EF45 and AU50 that were just nice VF's
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They are very inconsistent. I got a 65 that was great. See earlier post in this thread. I bought a few others that were well graded and a couple that were graded EF45 and AU50 that were just nice VF's
"They are very inconsistent." That's the crux of the matter, isn't it? Without steady reliable grading consistency we might as well rely on the dealer down the street to do the grading. I often get the impression that PMG is not really serious about grading non-US notes (apart from wanting the cash revenue) and that it is not really familiar with non-US paper fabrics. These observations might explain their poor grading consistency.
I have quite a large collection of both large-size and small-size US paper money and I always find it much more difficult to grade US notes than Canadian or world notes. The fabric and other characteristics of US paper are quite distinctive and very unlike Canadian paper.
At the end of the day the TPG grading companies should stick to doing what they're most familiar with and not try to take over the entire world. We would have the same sort of problem if companies that are experts in grading, for example, high-grade Canadian coins were to start grading Ancient Greek and Roman coins, Medieval hammered coins, and the like. What we need is a TPG company that is thoroughly familiar with the nuances of Canadian paper money, that is domiciled in Canada, and that is dedicated to grading Canadian paper money and nothing else.
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I have just noticed that a well-known eBay seller of "high-end" US currency has been posting some very interesting scans with his lot descriptions. These scans show some of the huge differences in grade that he has recorded between PMG and other TPG companies for the identical notes.
As an illustration just take a look at the three examples below ...... they're quite frightening to say the least! In the first example PMG says the note in question is a Choice Unc 63 while CGA says it's only EF 45.
{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/5/13/7669_12.JPG}
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...... AND HERE'S ANOTHER EQUALLY-FRIGHTENING EXAMPLE!
{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/5/13/b255_12.JPG}
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YOU'LL APPRECIATE THIS ONE TOO .....
..... and you tell me that you're still willing to actually pay money to have your notes "professionally" graded ... ??!!
{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/5/13/e145_3.JPG}
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I have not been collecting for a long time but I have both ungraded and graded notes by PMG.
My first impression was that if there was a third party grading company that would so call "confirm the note was as good as I thought" it would only make it more valuable or saleable to someone who may not be as confident to purchase a note from anyone with some type of confirmation that the note is as good as was described. On the other hand, I have always ONLY bought UNC notes because I did not want anything less. Unfortunately I can no longer afford Unc notes that are missing from my collection so here I sit waiting for my number to come in. I always bought notes that appealed to my eye. Something that looked centered, had good embossing and vibrant colours. I thought if it appealed to me, then it should appeal to others who may purchase them if I would ever sell them. I always did and still do, think this as a hobby that I enjoy.
It is not to turn items over and make a profit, but to enjoy what I have found. Obviously, strange to some but hey, it is my money and I enjoy the hobby. I just wish I had more money!! ;D
So far, I truly feel that the PMG notes I have do indeed look as good as described but I guess I could be bias on this.
To protect new collectors who might be taken in by PMG notes, perhaps we should have a voluntary boycott of all sellers who sell PMG notes?
That, I believe, would separate the boys from the real men in this hobby
I have bought UNC notes and PMG notes from the same dealer and this was by choice not force. However, in some cases I can honestly say that the charge between a PMG66 or a dealer described UNC 65 of the same high value note was about $50. In these cases I assume it is probably only covering what the dealer actually paid to get it graded. So either way I don't feel mislead or deceived in any way.
In conclusion, any respectable dealer always give you the option to return the notes so maybe instead of boycotting dealers, just keep returning notes you are not happy with. If this turns out to be a frequent occurence then I'm sure dealers with stop grading their notes.
Anyways, better check that lotto ticket. Oh yeah never bought one. ???
FRIEDSQUID
Oh yeah. Every once in a while when I need to see what is ahead in my life I go to the thread showing EYEVETS DEVIL REPLACEMENTS. and drool :o :o :o :o
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Now that give a buck has written pages of commentary of this "subject", called it private note grading, while the more correct title should have been third party graded notes, of which there are several types.
No one is ruining a hobby. Some graders simply found a way to add a fee for a service. Some are better, others are worse, there is no one that is a perfect grader, all comments aside.
Returns on notes graded by anyone, has much to do with how the note was purchased. A site seen item is a agree to price, and it is a done deal. In auctions, note bought are site seen. In mail bids, generally dealers offer returns in a time limited span, generally 14 days. Those that don't offer returns on third party graded items should be avoided (for mail bids).
There are no standard rules for returns in the industry, returns are what it is written in the dealer's rules. Simply said, if you don't agree with the printed rules, don't buy the note.
Rick
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I found this ebay item, it is U.S. currency but here is the title of the lot
"$3,00 AND YOU CAN DISPLAY YOUR OVERGRADED NOTES
SHOW THE WORLD HOW YOU WERE RIPPED BY CGA,, I CAN HELP"
it is item # 140120366408 and this is a link to a site that compares notes graded by different TPG companies.
http://www.keycurrency.com/badgrade.htm
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Keycurrency.com is one great site! Thanks for bringing it to our attention, Gary. It would appear that CGA grading is even more unreliable than PMG grading ..... and we all know about PMG grading!
In my humble opinion, it's better to learn how to grade properly oneself and to stick with raw ungraded notes that can be inspected (and enjoyed) out of the holder now and again. After all, who really derives complete satisfaction looking at a note through the glass of a museum display case?
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Perhaps the biggest problem of all is that there are so many independent third-party grading companies out there. Which one should you choose? Which one is the "best"? The first four listed below are the four American grading companies that advertise in Bank Note Reporter on a regular basis. I have listed them in alphabetical order in order to avoid suggesting any personal bias or preference.
1. CGA ("Currency Grading & Authentication")
http://www.cganotes.com
2. CGC ("Currency Grading & Certification, Inc.")
http://www.GradedCurrency.com
3. PCGSC ("Professional Coin Grading Service Currency")
http://www.pcgscurrency.com/index.html
4. PMG ("Paper Money Guaranty")
http://www.PMGnotes.com
And we should not forget our own home-grown Canadian grading company!
5. CCGS ("Canadian Currency Grading Service, Inc.")
http://www.canadiancurrencygradingservice.com
Some online sellers (e.g., PorscheAhmet) proclaim that CGA is the best grading company of all while others present documentary evidence to show that it's the very worst (e.g., vcavo, aka KeyCurrency.com)! Others express the opinion that PMG is the most "respected" company but how does one go about substantiating and verifying such a claim?. And then what about CGC and PCGS?
By the way, PCGS stands for "Professional Coin Grading Service" and not "Professional Currency Grading Service". PCGS was founded in 1986 as a coin grading service and now grades paper currency under the name PCGSC (i.e., PCGS Currency). The acronym PCGSC is usually abbreviated to PCGS when referring to paper money that has been graded by PCGSC. Confusing, eh??
Needless to say, it's a minefield out there when it comes to third-party grading. Different companies tend to use different terms, different grading criteria and different grading standards. It baffles me how all of this can be good for the hobby but I guess I just haven't seen the light yet!
As far as the grading of Canadian paper money is concerned, I personally feel that we need a Canadian solution to the present dilemma. It seems to me that the logical answer is CCGS. However, having said that, I can certainly understand why those sellers of Canadian paper money who want to take advantage of the burgeoning American market would probably prefer to go with an American grading company.