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General => What's It Worth? => Topic started by: therealco1986 on July 19, 2013, 09:03:00 am

Title: 1923 Shinplaster Note
Post by: therealco1986 on July 19, 2013, 09:03:00 am
Folks,

I know that 1923 25c shinplasters were often cut off centre.  I got this one the other day.  It looks to be in good shape to me, I'd consider it on the higher end of EF, but not quite AU.  The top is slightly cut off, but looks to be decent to me.  I know most people ask what it is worth, dollar value wise.  But, would it be worth it to send to BCS or PMG for grading purposes and hanging onto it?  Or are these things common?  Just a little guidance is all I'm looking for!

Regards!

RJB
Title: Re: 1923 Shinplaster Note
Post by: walktothewater on July 19, 2013, 10:44:56 am
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I know that 1923 25c shinplasters were often cut off centre.
I don't collect shinplasters but I have seen my fair share & you're right, they're often cut off centre (or just poorly cut).  Low production QC I would imagine.

It is tough to fine them unprocessed (they're often pressed), perfectly centred with jumbo borders & in UNC (not EF or AU) so unless they're a rare signature/year combo I would not get the 1923 25c shinplaster graded. 


Title: Re: 1923 Shinplaster Note
Post by: therealco1986 on July 19, 2013, 02:30:37 pm
The note I have is one of the shorter issues, I think.  It's a Campbell & Clark.  Nothing great about the serial 609556.  It has the letter D on it and A-1, but I think the A-1 is meaningless because they never used it.  Not sure if it was pressed.  Looks pretty good shape, and is fairly flat, with very few lines for wrinkles.  But, that said, it could look flat because it was pressed?  I'm not sure...
Title: Re: 1923 Shinplaster Note
Post by: Shylo on July 19, 2013, 06:17:46 pm
It is all relative to your needs...

If you are planning to sell it.. that's when TPG comes into effect .... it gives the buyer some idea that a "professional" has looked at it and that's what they've determine is the notes grade.


If you're not planning on selling anytime soon don't bother..


You can enjoy the note yourself... If I can, I buy raw notes and prefer to do so... but online I prefer buying TPG notes... while photos are great they never do the same justice as having note in hand ...

If you could post a pic or two many on here could probably tell you a bit more about the grade.
Title: Re: 1923 Shinplaster Note
Post by: mmars on July 19, 2013, 11:56:22 pm
No shinplaster is worth getting professionally graded, IMHO.
Title: Re: 1923 Shinplaster Note
Post by: therealco1986 on July 20, 2013, 11:41:33 am
Here is a scan.  Like I said...  I think its in decent shape...

{http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4449/icyz.jpg:http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4449/icyz.th.jpg}
Title: Re: 1923 Shinplaster Note
Post by: twoplustwo on July 20, 2013, 07:41:29 pm
I think it might have been trimmed at some point in time.  With that big of an off center cut, you'd typically see the top of the other note showing on the bottom of this note.. 
Title: Re: 1923 Shinplaster Note
Post by: mmars on July 21, 2013, 04:01:52 am
Trimming is a possibility but unlikely given that removing a portion of the printed design really defeats the purpose of trimming.  I think it's more likely that the note was originally cut into the design as shinplasters with extra pieces of adjoining notes are not that uncommon.  Notes of that era were typically cut by hand.  But again, the rule of thumb applies... "If a note looks trimmed, it's trimmed", meaning the note's value will be impacted by its appearance.  Having such a note professionally graded is that much more pointless as the grade will not be meaningful.  They will grade what you give them.  In other words, they will not net grade because of the missing top edge, but the value of the note will have much to do with that missing portion.  Unfortunately, some people see problem notes like this as an opportunity to exploit professional grading services and to try to convince prospective buyers that the assigned grade takes into the account the note's poor cutting.
Title: Re: 1923 Shinplaster Note
Post by: Wizard1 on July 21, 2013, 01:37:12 pm
Quote from: mmars on July 19, 2013, 11:56:22 pm
No shinplaster is worth getting professionally graded, IMHO.


Perhaps not any of the 1923 series, but The A Series  from the Series prior to the 1923 series, along with any fancy serials are worth grading imho. Or a certain inverted back error perhaps  ;)
Title: Re: 1923 Shinplaster Note
Post by: therealco1986 on July 21, 2013, 03:55:10 pm
The back looks relatively centred in comparison to the front...  I would hope it isn't trimmed...  Could I compare it to another 25c shinplaster??
Title: Re: 1923 Shinplaster Note
Post by: Wizard1 on July 21, 2013, 04:00:23 pm
Not mine, just found it on the interwebs

{http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/7815/tngw.jpg:http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/7815/tngw.th.jpg}

{http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/732/2ron.jpg:http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/732/2ron.th.jpg}
Title: Re: 1923 Shinplaster Note
Post by: therealco1986 on July 22, 2013, 11:22:11 am
Your note looks nice!  It makes me wonder if I am being too generous thinking my note is in EF to AU condition!  Especially with the top cut off.  My question is whether or not it has been trimmed.  What are the dimensions of these notes supposed to be?  Would it be worth measuring if they were cut by hand?  I was hoping it would have been originally cut like this since some of them were cut by hand back then.  Such that the top could be cut, off...  But the bottom would still be normal.

But like they say, if it looks cut, it's been cut!

I hadn't realized how badly off centre it was cut.  Why would someone do it that way if they trimmed it?  I wonder...


Thanks!
Title: Re: 1923 Shinplaster Note
Post by: walktothewater on July 25, 2013, 07:31:54 pm
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  What are the dimensions of these notes supposed to be?  Would it be worth measuring if they were cut by hand?

I may be wrong but I think there is some variation from one shinplaster to another so I'm not sure if it would be worth your while to compare with others.  That is one of the reasons I don't see bringing a TPG (Third Party Grading) into grading your note (not worth the expense).  Again- that is just my opinion- I'm sure there may be others who may differ.  Some collectors are almost obsessed with TPG (in my opinion) & I've seen the most common (ridiculous) notes graded (not sure why... ::))

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I hadn't realized how badly off centre it was cut.  Why would someone do it that way if they trimmed it?  I wonder...

Most diehard collectors cannot understand why a person would trim or press (clean or process) a note but generally it is done with the misguided intent to improve the note's appearance.  Trimming is usually done with notes that have frayed edges or edge nicks or minor tears (if the tear is no longer visible the misguided perpetrator would likely think it looks better) & also assume it could sell for a premium.  This could very well happen if the note is sold online where a person cannot inspect it for him/herself.

However, if examining the note firsthand, most collectors have developed a nose for such flaws (eg: seeing uneven borders).  Oddly enough there are even perpetrators who would trim a perfectly fine note just because one border may be wider than the other (so the design appears more centred).  In any case, all notes that become altered lose their value rather than increase their value (as stated earlier).
Title: Re: 1923 Shinplaster Note
Post by: mmars on July 28, 2013, 12:12:24 am
I don't have all the answers but I do know a few things.  Firstly, trimming does not affect the technical grade except when differentiating the various uncirculated grades.  In other words, a Gem Uncirculated note needs wide even borders, and if you take a perfect note, trim away most of the borders, then your note would grade Choice Unc at best.  Circulated grades are not based on margin size or evenness, they are based on wear.  What trimming does is affect the appearance of the note.  Most of the TPG companies assess technical grade based on the parts of the note that are present, and that is actually the correct way to do grading.  If you decrease a note's technical grade based on flaws, what you are doing, in effect, is called net grading, which is a fancy term meaning lying by omission.  In other words, if you take a note that is VF, but you notice a few pinholes, and you call the note Fine without mentioning the pinholes, you are lying about BOTH the technical grade and the pinholes.  People do this because they think they can get a higher price by net grading rather than stating the correct grade and the flaws (i.e., VF with pinholes).  The logic is that a note that is net graded will look better than its stated grade, and in an online sales environment where buyers can see only the image of the note (because they cannot inspect the note in person), this fuels speculative buying/bidding, meaning someone will offer more for the note thinking they are getting an undergraded VF with no pinholes.

Now, on the issue of trimming, older series notes were printed on sheets that were NOT cut prior to being sent to banks for issue.  I don't know exactly when this practice stopped.  The Charlton catalogue is rather vague on this subject. But what this means is that notes were cut by hand when they were needed, and as you can imagine, humans cutting individual sheets into single notes produces a large variation in border size and straightness compared to machines cutting stacks of sheets.  This is another reason why the value of older series notes are more greatly affected by appearance compared to modern notes.  This has the seemingly paradoxical effect of having mid-grade notes with nice jumbo margins selling for more than high-grade notes with tightly-cropped edges or some of the design missing due to a crooked cut.  But that only seems paradoxical to people who insist on believing that technical grade = value.  This is why really ugly-looking notes tend to stay in TPG holders.  Notes that look nicer than their technical grade tend to be removed from their TPG holders.  Ugly notes stay in these holders and the owners try to get a price based on the technical grade alone.

So, again, I will state that most older series notes that were cropped into their designs are probably NOT trimmed.  They were probably made that way, but not on purpose.  The people 100 years ago didn't create poorly-cut notes for a reason.  It just happened.  For the collectors 100 years later, it's really just academic if a note was badly cut in the past or given a trim job in more modern times.  The result is the same.  The value of the note goes down when there is a portion of the design missing.  That's why I have a really hard time understanding anyone who would remove a note's margins in an attempt to hide some other flaw.  But then again, there are people stupid enough to bathe notes in strong chemicals, like bleach, and then dry the note without removing the chemical smell!  Do these people really think there are many collectors lacking their olfactory sense??   :-[

With shinplaster notes in particular, they were not always cut prior to being issued.  Full and partial sheets were sometimes folded up rather than cut, and some survive today in this format.  That's why you will see occasionally at major auctions sheets of shinplasters in circulated grade with folds.  I don't know if it was common practice to do this, but it happened.

Measuring the dimensions of older series notes is completely pointless.  This practice is fueled by a few people harboring an intense paranoia about buying trimmed notes.  That's why my advice is so practical, and I'll state it one more time: "If a note looks trimmed, it's trimmed".  But I guess some people feel they lack the ability to judge a note's appearance and need something tangible on which to base an assessment, so they pull out their rulers and try to collect only notes that meet or exceed a certain size.  Of course, these people don't know what to say when you show them two notes of the same series where one note's printed design is larger than the other's... Notes were printed wet and then dried to different sizes.  That's one more reason to take my advice.  ;)

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In any case, all notes that become altered lose their value rather than increase their value (as stated earlier).

That's true if the alteration is obvious.  When it is really professionally done... never mind.  :-X
Title: Re: 1923 Shinplaster Note
Post by: therealco1986 on August 06, 2013, 09:28:21 am
Folks,

I appreciate everybody's input!  It looks to me like the note has not been modified.  Unless it had been done really well and a long time ago, the edgewear and corners look to be similar on top and bottom, which suggests to me that the edges are the same age.  So, unless they modified it (for whatever reason) it would have been done a while ago.

At least, that'll be a cool story to tell folks...  That they likely cut the note at the bank as opposed to directly after the presses!  Appreciate all your info.  It has been invaluable.  Now, if I can find an uncut pair or set I'd be set!  I haven't even seen any of these on eBay, but by the Charlton guide I am lead to believe they exist somewhere.

Regards!