CPM Forum

Canadian Notes => Polymer Series => Topic started by: mmars on March 26, 2014, 04:04:03 pm

Title: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: mmars on March 26, 2014, 04:04:03 pm
Received some new $5 polymer notes.  After getting 7 notes in a row (HBN 2360924-30 36/36), all heck broke loose...

HBN 2540980 36 36
HBN 2342874 36 36
HBN 2360940 36 36
HBN 2387932 36 36
HBN 2405804 36 36
HBN 2441866 36 36
HBN 2450852 36 36
HBN 2459991 36 36
HBN 2495887 36 36
HBN 2504873 36 36
HBN 2522881 36 36
HBN 2522820 36 36
HBN 2540876 36 36
HBN 2540828 36 36
HBN 2576810 36 36
HBN 2594880 36 36
HBN 2324912 36 36
HBN 2333819 36 36

I have received mixed-up new notes before, but not all from the same position in the layout.  Ideas?
Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: walktothewater on March 27, 2014, 01:55:01 pm
In a few bundles of 100 notes I have seen a similar pattern (notes jump by several thousand but same FPN/BPN) and thought that was the norm.  Usually the jump is in the several 1000 to several 10,000 # jump (not 200,000 as you have in your HBN sample below).

Sometimes I have had consecutive notes but they will also have gaps (typically 1, 2 or 3 # jump).  And very few times I have had notes jump by 200 and a FPN/BPN # increment of 1.
Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: Mortgage Guy on March 27, 2014, 03:08:40 pm
I've also seen a bundle start with 0182, replacement after 399 then a jump to 0452 for a few notes then down to 0210 for 3 notes ending the bundle.
Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: mmars on March 28, 2014, 12:07:20 am
Unfortunately, the notes I received were not from an intact bundle, so that opens up the possibilities that they were mixed up after they were issued.  But still, keeping in mind that reams are 9,000 notes in size (in theory), there are notes from a dozen different reams in this grouping, and that is hard to fathom how they got mixed together.

Not long ago, I had a similar bunch of notes for prefix HBL.  The serial numbers were entered into the SNDB directly, so I did not record them separately and hence I don't have the raw data.  I estimate the range of serial numbers to be from 0850000 to 1200000.  In this particular case, the position numbers varied, meaning they were not all the same.  I concluded the notes were assembled from singles.  In fact, four of the notes came from the same sheet based on their serial numbers.  I wished I had held on to some of the notes because a few belong to a newly established sheet insert range (HBL 0.891-0.900).  But based on what I saw, there was no reason to believe any of these notes were inserts.

So now I have some HBN notes that all have the same position number, prompting me to believe the sheets were scrambled prior to being cut into singles/bundles.  This just adds to my scepticism about the concept of "reams".
Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: walktothewater on April 05, 2014, 04:11:01 pm
In an earlier bundle, I found:
HBM 4531096 23 23
HBM 4540096 23 23

& in amore recent bundle:
HBS 8812632 49 49
HBS 8812633 49 49
HBS 8821632 49 49
HBS 8821633 49 49

9000 notes apart (& really made me take a second look!)
Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: hdldddpd on April 05, 2014, 10:42:29 pm
My find in one bundle and many others that I don't have recorded

HBR 2379356-9358 38/38
HBR 2388260-8340 38/38

9,000 separation.

Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: mmars on April 06, 2014, 02:55:51 am
Yes, we have established previously that notes from consecutive reams in the same sheet position will be 9,000 numbers apart.  Mixing of two reams in a bundle will produce two ranges of notes separated by 9,000.

It occurred to me that others have reported finding runs with missing notes such that it has proven quite difficult to obtain a run of 100 consecutively-numbered notes or even smaller consecutive runs within bundles.  Perhaps random sheets are being pulled and inspected as part of a quality-control protocol, and when those sheets are deemed to be satisfactory, meaning they don't have problems that require culling, they are assembled and put together into a highly mixed up run of notes like the ones I found.  As you can see in my grouping of notes listed above, the serial numbers span a range of about 250,000, or roughly 28 reams.  Because reams are so small (200 sheets) and because there is no conscious effort to keep sheets in order before cutting, maybe it makes more sense to do inspections on randomly-pulled sheets.  Maybe it is this kind of protocol that is responsible for the mixing of serial number ranges within bundles.  For example, from every ream of 200 sheets, say 5 sheets get pulled, leaving 195.  For every ream, there is a deficit of sheets needed to make 2 sets of bundles, so they borrow sheets from the next ream, and this "deficit" grows and, further down the line, more and more mixing of reams occurs.

If this is actually what is happening, it becomes that much more uncertain how replacements are deemed to be necessary in the entire note-issuing process.  The pulled sheets are not replaced by anything... The printers are happy to leave gaps in the numbering.  Perhaps one day, a brick hunter will get one brick of notes with a few notes missing, and he will get a second brick containing the missing notes from the first brick.  That would be interesting to explain from the perspective of "insert notes".
Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: Rupiah on April 12, 2014, 10:00:30 pm
Does the skip number define a ream or is a ream defined by a run?

Because the sheets are skip numbered as 200 does it mean that numbers are printed on only 200 sheets at a time.

In fact it is rather easy to see that notes which are 9000 apart and  that show up in the same bundles are printed in the same run without resetting of the printing machine by seeing some of the printing artifcats (e.g. offset number, overprinting of the same digit in the same location of the number).

I am not aware about anyone in the numismatic world talking about the implications of the BoC's Single Note Inspection. From the public information that is available (a google will do the trick to find this information) the BoC does not have to individually inspect the sheets. The SNI will process each individual note through the machine and separate out any note that does not meet the quality criteria. It will bundle the notes into 100's and package them into bricks and for each bundle it can keep track of the serial numbers in it. Amazingly enough this is done at a very high speed. If you google hard enough you will also find that the US was implementing this for their $100 bill. They had a Request for Quotation to supply this system.

If you look at the production video of the Canadian $100 note you will see a glimpse of that machine. I believe (and this is only my guess) that any bundle that has gone through the SNI machine will have that white strap with green borders with dot matrix type printing on the strap.

The older system that did not go through the SNI had the straps with the CBN logo or the plain white paper strap with the Bank of Canada Building Logo.

I believe that the system was tried out on some of the last of the paper 5's which has straps with the dot-matrix printing on it.

It would be nice to capture this data from all the people who get bundles.
Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: mmars on April 13, 2014, 03:39:07 am
Machines would be very effective at finding notes with problems related to some of the many security features on the newest series of notes.  I don't think they would be nearly as effective at picking out notes that exhibit other problems, like poor cutting and ink smears.  I don't think machines could ever replace humans completely for such a sensitive job as money production.
Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: Rupiah on April 14, 2014, 01:11:46 am
The BoC has let out a contract to BA I International Inc. for Single Note Inspection Services

BA International Inc.


Ref No:

Single Note Inspection Services


The machines used by BA International will likely be the ones produced by their parent company.

Try looking at their specs and what other countries are doing with it. You will be surprised at what these machines can pick up.

$50,000,000 over 5 years that is $10,000,000/year is a sizeable contract just to count the notes.

Welcome to the world of machines.  :)

Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: mmars on April 14, 2014, 03:14:32 pm
Time for a little math.

There are 31.5 million seconds in a year.

Suppose that CBN prints 200 million notes per year.  That's 20 prefixes at 10 million notes per prefix (and yes, most of those are $20 notes).

The machines that do "single note inspection" would have to process 6.5 notes per second for every second of the year.

That's amazing, right up there with the computer from Star Trek that could analyze something and tell you everything about it in mere seconds.
Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: Rupiah on May 20, 2014, 12:09:30 am
A little math continued:

Just the facts:

One machine is capable of :

"inspection system is specially tailored to the requirements of banknote printers and is designed to process up to 140,000 banknotes per hour." (from the specification of the machine)

That is 38 banknotes/second.

So for the 733 million notes that were produced by the BOC in 2013 (2013 annual report page 36) at 38 notes/second would require one machine operating 24 hours/day for 218 days

Now if there were 3 machines it would only take them 73 days at 24 hours/day
219 days at 8 hours/day.

Ample time for machines to get rest and be fixed if necessary.  ???
Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: Rupiah on May 20, 2014, 12:50:18 am
I thought 38 banknotes/second was fast.

Well just found out that the same company that produces the machine capable of 38 banknotes/second introduced a machine in the market capable of 44 banknotes/second.

So the 733 million notes that were received by BOC in 2013 would require 17 million seconds about half as many seconds that are there in the whole year if my math is correct.

So you would need only 2 machines operating 10 hours/day - 5 days/week for 52 weeks. The BOC just saved a whole pile of money. I think being prudent about costs they probably got 3 machines and ran them for 8 hours/day to avoid overtime charges.  :)
Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: mmars on May 20, 2014, 06:21:18 pm
That all sounds incredibly unrealistic.
Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: Rupiah on June 03, 2014, 09:36:47 pm
That all sounds incredibly unrealistic.

Unrealistic but true  ;)

Even the following truth seems unrealistic at first but it was done in 2013.

733,000,000 million notes printed in one year by one printer.

That is about 16,300,000 sheets with 45 notes per sheet.

16,300,000 sheets/year = 44,000 sheets/day with the machines working each of the 365 days

44,000 sheets/day = 1,860 sheets/hour with the presses running 24 hours a day.

1,860 sheets/hour = 31 sheets/minute and that is the machines and people working 24/7 365 days a week without a break.

Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: mmars on June 04, 2014, 07:52:27 pm
Comparing apples and oranges, aren't we?
Title: Re: As mixed up as it gets
Post by: walktothewater on June 21, 2014, 06:21:46 pm
HBV 3082000 32 32
HBV 3082023 32 32
HBV 3082978 36 36
HBV 3082987 36 36
HBV 3091986 36 36
HBV 3091987 36 36
HBV 3091189 32 32
HBV 3091199 32 32

The 36 36 positioned notes within the 32 32 position notes seemed a bit weird to me.  ::)