CPM Forum
General => Shows and Events => Topic started by: AL-Bob on January 24, 2020, 03:08:59 pm
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There are some nice lots in the upcoming Torex auction. One lot caught my eye though since it is described as:
The Royal Bank of Canada; 1920 $5 CH 630-58-02 #034005, Legacy Currency Grading Very-Fine-20. St.Kitts Large Size Note. Believed to be the ONLY known! Should be considered as a New and extremely Rare Find. This is the first time we have ever come accross this issue and it is not even reported as existing in the CPMS Report. A note that should definately bring in lots of interest as this will most likely be only one time it will be available to the public.
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Anyone bidding should know that this note is not the only known. The following note also exists and is privately owned. Serial number 011359, PMG 10.
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The note offered by TCNC is undoubtedly the nicer of the two known but anyone who is thinking of paying 35k+ should be aware that the note offered is not unique as implied in the auction listing. The two notes do have different signature combinations but the Charlton catalogue does not classify these notes by signature at this time.
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Some other highlights:
Lot 81: The Bank of Montreal; 1931 $5 CH 505-58-02c #C1283170, PCGS Extra Fine-40PPQ. Estimate: $12500 - $15000. This is a test note for Crane's #27 Bank Note Paper denoted by the "C" prefix.
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Lot 112: Union Bank of Newfoundland; 1882 $2 CH 7501602 #123944-123945-123946, PMG Choice Uncirculated-63EPQ. Estimate: $25000 - $35000. These are very popular but the estimate seems rather ambitious to me. I look forward to seeing what they sell for.
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Lot 127: 1897 $1 DC-12 #093744, Legacy Currency Grading EF45. Great margins with vibrant colours. Estimate: $9500 - $10000. These are quite scarce and underappreciated in my opinion. Will probably sell for less than estimate.
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Lot 137: 1912 $5 DC-21a #530317, Legacy Currency Grading Choice Uncirculated-63PPQ. Estimate: $15000 - $17500. Only a handful of series A notes are available to collectors in top grades. All of them that I have seen have had bad margins and this one is no different although this one looks like it was possibly trimmed to straighten out the margins.
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Lot 136: 1912 $5 DC-21b #113488B, Legacy Currency Grading VF30. Estimate: $4000 - $4500. This is one of the scarcest varieties and about as nice as you will likely see.
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Lot 140: 1914 $2 DC-22c #P203303, Legacy Currency Grading Choice About Uncirculated-55. Estimate: $5000 - $7500. These are pretty scarce and under-appreciated in high grades.
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Lot 141: 1917 $1 DC-23a-ii #M425228, Legacy Currency Grading Gem Uncirculated-65PPQ. Estimate: $5500 - $6500. Nice Princess Pat note.
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Lot 149: 1923 $1 DC-25b #D-551579, Legacy Currency Grading Gem Uncirculated-65PPQ. Estimate: $7500 - $9500. Group-1 Red Seal notes are certainly scarce. This is certainly not the finest though and I would seriously question the assigned grade. There looks like quite a disturbance on the right side. Probably best to be inspected in person.
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Lot 150: 1923 $1 DC-25e #R-315891, Legacy Currency Grading Gem Uncirculated-66PPQ. Estimate: $7500 - $8500. The Bronze seal is a lot more common but this is an interesting off-size note none-the-less.
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Lot 160: 1923 $1 DC-25o #E2352232, Legacy Currency Grading Superb Gem UNC67PPQ. Estimate: $2000 - $3000. This is the most common of all the 1923 $1s but the grade certainly is nice.
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Lot 166: 1923 $2 DC-26L #X-504661, PMG Gem Uncirculated-65EPQ. Superb embossing with large margins. Estimate: $7000 - $8000. The most common 1923 $2 but still a fantastic grade. I don't think it will achieve the estimate though.
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Lot 170: 1924 $1000 Specimen- DC-37S #00000, Legacy Currency Grading Choice About Uncirculated 53PPQ. Estimate: $50000 - $75000. Very rare, but I'm not sure if there are any collectors really looking for these kinds of Specimen notes. Putting together a complete collection of Bank Legal specimens at this stage would be all but impossible.
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Lot 171: 1935 $1 BC-1 #A2842624, Legacy Currency Grading Superb Gem UNC67PPQ. Estimate: $3000 - $6000. Highest grade I have seen but some traces of handling are visible.
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Lot 182: 1935 $5 BC-5 #A928240, Legacy Currency Grading Gem Uncirculated-66PPQ. Estimate: $7500 - $10000. Shows a lot of handling for the grade. With more and more notes getting graded 66 and higher I would take a close look before bidding.
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Lot 245: 1937 $50 BC-26a A/H0082498, Legacy Currency Grading AU50. Estimate: $9500 - $10000. Not the nicest example but worth mentioning.
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Lot 255: BC-28 1937 $1000 A/K0000126 Legacy Currency Grading Choice UNC 62. Estimate: $18000 - $19000. There is one of these in just about every auction but they remain very popular.
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Lot 294: 1954 $1000 BC-44a #AK0033740, Legacy Currency Grading Gem Uncirculated-66PPQ. Estimate: $17500 - $20000. Another lofty grade assigned by LCG. I would inspect this note in person though as I see soft corners and evidence of handling. We certainly don't see Beattie-Coyne $1000s in this grade very often but be careful overpaying for a note that might not be what it seems.
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Lot 310: BC-49c-i 1971 $10 EEP9601827 Legacy Currency Grading Superb Gem UNC 66PPQ. Above 9.0M Serial Number. Estimate: $35000 - $45000. Seems like quite a few of these are being discovered. I would be cautious paying big bucks when this note might end up being no rarer than EES or EET.
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Lot 371: Error; 1972 $5 BC-48a #CG5312309, UNCIRCULATED Cutting error. Small tear. Estimate: $3000 - $4000. This lot and a few other dramatic error notes are being offered.
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These are just a few of the many highlights. I agree, some of those notes are probably overgraded, especially by Canadian standard, and the buyer should buy the note and not the holder.
It's actually a shame to see that 95% of expensive notes (over $500) in these auctions are US slabbed notes. It is disgusting considering both the overgrading and that we have multiple good Canadian grading companies who charge a fraction compared to the US graders charge.
Thanks for your opinion, it's good to know other people thought on notes and that we are on the same page.
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I don't think I would call it "disgusting" for buyers to send notes to companies that are the most widely recognized internationally and will attract the highest prices. I would do the same myself if I was selling anything of substantial value. I don't want to get into which company is better and for what reasons but just wanted to point out a few notes that should be looked at more closely.
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I like to buy a note or slab a note that is accurate. Overgrading for the purpose of selling is just deceptive in my opinion but that's only my opinion. When you are paying a premium for them to write an inflated grade, then you know your trying to get the most out of that note and decieve buyers that are not able to evaluate a note carefully on their own or appeal to someone who wants the highest grade note even though it may not be true.
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I don't think I would call it "disgusting" for buyers to send notes to companies that are the most widely recognized internationally and will attract the highest prices
- I agree with "AL-Bob's" take on both the notes and your reaction. He was just making some observations on both what he thought of the banknotes' grades, their rarity, etc. I think you're taking his general assessments (from photos) way too literally. His obvious "Bottom line" is you should go see the note in person before bidding.
I like to buy a note or slab a note that is accurate. Overgrading for the purpose of selling is just deceptive in my opinion but that's only my opinion.
So does every collector (want a note that has an appropriate grade). You're getting way off topic! This thread is about some of the highlight lots in the upcoming Torex auction NOT your take on US TPG. I think you really should keep in mind that all TPG certification co's employ imperfect people who grade (& certify) thousands of banknotes. When there's tens of thousands of notes graded by PMG there's bound to be a few that may raise some eyebrows. You have posted many times about:
paying a premium for them to write an inflated grade, then you know your trying to get the most out of that note and decieve buyers
as if the certifiers enjoy ripping off collectors! (Which is ludicrous) I really think you should stop hi-jacking threads with your take on TPG (thanks!)
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Lot 150: 1923 $1 DC-25e #R-315891, Legacy Currency Grading Gem Uncirculated-66PPQ. Estimate: $7500 - $8500. The Bronze seal is a lot more common but this is an interesting off-size note none-the-less.
-Good eye "AL-Bob" that this note was cut off size ("Canadian Banknote Company Limited" plus a bit of the bottom border from the note above showing). It is interesting there is no mention of this on the holder.
Lot 310: BC-49c-i 1971 $10 EEP9601827
- yes, there was a member on this forum who sold 3 or 4 UNC EEP good-over notes a few years back so I agree that these might be just like the other 2 good-over prefixes.
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Ok then; i apologize for going off topic and it was not my intention to highjack the thread.... If anything I was just trying to get some conversations going since this site is sometimes slow moving.
There are alot of nice notes there that are rare regardless of grade. There is a large variety for every collector type. Another notable item are some approved 1935 french proofs ???
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Lot 245: 1937 $50 BC-26a A/H0082498, Legacy Currency Grading AU50. Estimate: $9500 - $10000. Not the nicest example but worth mentioning.
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My 1982 Charlton guide lists the 1937 Osborne $50 at $65 in UNC!!
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My 1982 Charlton guide lists the 1937 Osborne $50 at $65 in UNC!!
Wow! Talk about appreciation. ???
-is that 1982 guide the 1st issue? (I believe they started up in the 80's right?)
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Wow that would be cheap considering the price indexing back then. The oldest book I have is 2005 and it says 9000 in UNC and now it's 17500 in unc
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The first edition of The charlton standard catalogue of canadian government paper money was issued in 1984
the value of 50 1937 osborne unc was $ 3500
the first time charlton is talking about the 50 1937 osborne was in the 8 th edition of standard catalogue of canadian coins tokens and paper money and the value for the 50 was 75 $
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thanks again for posting those notes
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Here’s a couple pages from the 1962 book.
Cheers, Bill
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couple pages from the 1962 book.
Wow (again) thanks for sharing Bill. If we could only time travel to back then...
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If we could only time travel to back then...
Yes... you could buy your own catalogue :D
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You could even buy a Gordon-Towers $1000 for $1050. Those were the days!
I'm guessing those prices were mostly made up. It's one thing to see an Unc Osborne $50 listed for $75 in a catalogue. Or an Unc French $500 for $600. It's another thing to actually find one in the wild even if you could travel back to 1962.
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Ok then; i apologize for going off topic and it was not my intention to highjack the thread.... If anything I was just trying to get some conversations going since this site is sometimes slow moving.
There are alot of nice notes there that are rare regardless of grade. There is a large variety for every collector type. Another notable item are some approved 1935 french proofs ???
I own a 1935 $500 French Front & Back proof I bought about 15 years ago and probably paid too much for...
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A couple of points about catalogues and pricing in the old days. The first comprehensive Charlton catalogue devoted exclusively to paper money was published in 1980 (I exclude the ca. 1955 edition because it only listed government notes, and no Bank of Canada after 1935). In it we find the 1937 Osborne $50 at $1,400 in UNC. That catalogue was eventually expanded into the three we have today, Government, Chartered and Merchant.
Secondly, I do not agree that the prices in early catalogues (1960s) were just made up. I can tell you three anecdotes which will explain. A friend of mine bought a gem Unc 1937 Osborne $50 from a dealer, I think about 1969, and the $75 price sounds about right. He had a talent for picking quality notes, and it is one of the few surviving gem uncs in the hobby - most are pressed EF or AU notes, regardless of what the slab may say. Anyway, if I recall the rest of the story correctly, his acquisition was belittled by more experienced collectors who assured him he overpaid.
Another story, which I believe to be true, concerns Jim Charlton who had picked up a couple of 1935 English $500s about 1960. He tried without success to sell them for $525 each, and ended up depositing them at his bank. One needs to understand that $500 was a lot of money back then and way out of reach for most collectors (especially this one - I was making a whopping 35¢ an hour - before there were any minimum wage laws.)
Finally a story about a 1935 English $100. I know it's true because it happened to me. In those days I was more interested in chartered bank notes (still am). I'd picked up the note for a little over face, and since hobby dollars were hard to come by while paying down a mountain of student loan debt and a mortgage, I consigned it to an auction. It sold for a whopping $110, and after the commission was deducted, I was left with exactly the face value. I'd have had my money quicker had I simply deposited the note.
Anyway, that's how it was - from one who was there.
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Secondly, I do not agree that the prices in early catalogues (1960s) were just made up. I can tell you three anecdotes which will explain.
-I agree with your sentiment and enjoyed your anecdotes (it's so easy for us to lose perspective).
Finally a story about a 1935 English $100. I know it's true because it happened to me. In those days I was more interested in chartered bank notes (still am). I'd picked up the note for a little over face, and since hobby dollars were hard to come by while paying down a mountain of student loan debt and a mortgage, I consigned it to an auction. It sold for a whopping $110, and after the commission was deducted, I was left with exactly the face value. I'd have had my money quicker had I simply deposited the note.
-What a terrific story which drives home your point. (the only ones who seem to make a profit are the auctioneers)
I myself have traded in several older 1954 notes some of which could have been collectible. I couldn't afford a catalogue when I first started tucking a few notes away (which in itself seemed crazy & extravagant at the time). I often used this hoard-like collection of banknotes to buy elusive notes I wanted (like a Devil's Face $20 at a dealer's stand at our local mall). I kept using my little collection to buy a more eclectic set of notes b/c that was the only spare money I had to make such purchases (& I got access to older library Charlton catalogues which informed me what to look for). It wasn't until much later in life that I finally could start using regular money to buy collectible banknotes.
Looks like session 1 of Torex starts tomorrow. Many circulated listings. Anyone interested?
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Here’s a couple pages from the 1962 book.
Cheers, Bill
Wow, 1935 $50 Osborne, $65 in UNC. Funnily enough, time travel that far back isn't necessary, my 1982 Charlton shows the same value for the same note in UNC.
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The Torex is in 11 days, they have a new auction feature on Mondays now with common items and tomorrow will be the first one.
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How did it go? Anyone who went care to comment? (thanks)