CPM Forum
General => General Forum Comments => Topic started by: walktothewater on May 08, 2006, 09:42:33 pm
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I have reported a seller of the so called "gold flag" centenial note and I encourage all those members who are concerned what these "Rackateers" are doing to the hobby - to do the same!
Although it may not technically fall under "Counterfeit" I have reported it as such. Although the sellers admit the note is overprinted their claims that only 5000 have been printed is misleading. One would think the notes originate from BOC. I will be informing them of this business.
Whether an actual positive outcome occurs remains to be seen. However, we should consider what this kind of misrepresentation does to the whole reputation of collecting paper money. It is especially bad for this hobby! There will be many "burned" newbies who will be resentful and wary of legitimate dealers in the future (that's if they don't just drop the hobby altogether)
James
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The note can and should be sold as long it is decribed as an after market printing, that is the flag printed does not originate with the Bank of Canada and is not authorized by them. Any good printer can add such trash to a banknote. Some years ago, I printed up several hundred "business cards" printed on notes of Yugoslavia.
Rick
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It is on a 1967 $1 if anyone needs to know. I found it too.
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I disagree Rick.
This note should not be sold even if the seller states its an overprint (or any of the conditions you point out). The uninitiated is not wise to such tampering, and to the worthlessness of such an item.
Any good printer can add such trash to a banknote.
I'm surprised that any dealer would support such a "trashy" product.
It is a blemish on the whole hobby of collecting Canadian banknotes.
Now a similar scheme is occuring over the $2.00 note with a polar bear overprint. Someone has a ream of $2.00 (like the 67 $1) perhaps worth $3- $5 (at best though no one will buy them) and stamps them with a bear image claiming they're some sort of souvenir collector's item. It is exceptionally exploitive and quite disgusting, and I'm not the only person who feels this way:
Here's what the BOC Currency museum has to say:
Mr. Baldwin,
Thank you for your letter. The Bank of Canada shares your concern. We are well aware of this situation, and the matter has been directed to the bank's legal department.
You are quite correct in that the Bank of Canada has never issued or authorized the issue of "gold flag" or other likewise additionally adorned bank notes. Although experienced numismatists and collectors may be aware of this type of fraud and know enough to stay clear, many "novice" collectors are not and may be tempted with what they are led to believe is a great deal.
The Bank of Canada does not endorse or in any way acknowledge the legitimacy of the claims put forward by the sellers of these tampered "gold flag" notes.
Thank you for your concern.
Sincerely,
John Inca Anderson
Musée de la monnaie| Currency Museum
Banque du Canada| Bank of Canada (Ottawa)
tel: (613) 782-7004
fax: (613) 782-7761
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I would just like to add that these 1967 (GOLD LEAF) phoney notes are selling from $30 to $50!
It is anyone's guess what the $2.00 racket will fetch for these unscrupulous characters.
And as you can see IT IS FRAUD when you tamper with an original print and pass if off as something it is not
I would like to see our hobby grow -- not implode on itself -- simply because a few shady characters have decided to rip off the gullible new comers.
Although many collectors may continue to have a lassez-faire attitude towards this kind of practice -- you should reconsider. If everyone keeps their mouths shut this practice will continue and worsen. It only takes a few -- perhaps a 1/2 dozen complaints-- and we'll see such practices cease and desist.
I encourage any concerned collector to voice their opinion ASAP. The Bank of Canada, the Currency Museum, and Ebay are all looking into it. If they think its a minor problem it will continue.
Think about it.
James
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I have to agree with walktothewater on this one. Although stated the flag is an overprint it does not mention the fact that the after market overprint does NOT originate from the Bank of Canada. Furthermore, in the description it is written that only 5000 were issued deceiving an individual, in this situation a novice collector, to think that this note is super rare. A note that catalogues for $5 selling for, in some cases, well over $50 means that the buyer is clearly mislead! Please understand rscoins that I am not starting an argument with you at all. I agree with your point that as long as an item is described appropriately it's fair game. I just think that the seller should clearly mention the fact that the overprint was performed by a third party and not the BOC, and also get ride of that limited 5000 issued statement which confuses one to believe that this note is rare. But then again this is only my humble opinion…
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I think we should cut and paste the above note from BofC to bidders on gold leaf auctions.
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I did mine for tonight. I sent an E Bay message to the current winning bidder for a Gold Flag $1 bill, and included a link to this forum with the BoC letter. I almost bought on of tthe $2's. Lost the item, got a second chance offer and did some looking. I found an old Gold Flag discussion and let it pass.
[smiley=beer.gif]
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I also have a confession to make I almost purchase one of the $2 notes with the polar bear stamp. It was listed as a rare $2 prototype (It was one of the first listed on ebay, and I thought it was very rare) :-[ I'd be very embarrassed if I purchases this note, but I did some research and found out that it wasn't a prototype. That's the reason I get mad when I see these notes, since I almost got ripped off and now I do not want anyone else to.
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The thing that makes it so obvious (to me) that the $2s are fabrications is that the notes are printed with Bonin/Thiessen or Thiessen/Crow signature sets, which are well over 10 years old. Yet the overprints are dated "1996 2006" which means that they would have to have been made this year or last year. If so, they would have featured the signatures of Jenkins/Dodge. Plus, the Bank of Canada would have made a really big deal about this if they were to ever even consider issuing such a commemorative note, which they haven't done since 1967.
Anyway, I've written an eBay guide on this subject. Please click the following link and review it. At the bottom, vote Yes! when asked if the guide was helpful. (Click here! (http://tinyurl.com/mzcqc))
Also, I've reported all of tonight's gold flag/gold seal listings as counterfeits.
We can do what we can, and then we watch what happens.
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Perhaps if someone on this forum has purchased one of these notes, they could showcase it on E-bay for 1 million dollars, and discuss in detail, how the note is made, and fraudulantly decieving. That would certainly educate anyone interested in paper money on E-bay.
In fact, I would more than gladly cover any fees incurred in doing so.
Manny
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Who says someone actually needs to PURCHASE one of these notes? Just display the images in an auction. In the unlikely event that someone really wants to pay a million bucks to buy one, then you flat out refuse on moral grounds. If they push it, buy one and then resell for a million bucks... lol
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Thanks for all those concerned who've expressed their opinions on this subject. It is heartening to see dialogue emerge over a shameful practice occurring on eBay today. It's also great to see so many concerned collectors on the same page! ;)
However the idea that we
...should cut and paste the above note from BofC to bidders on gold leaf auctions.
would be extremely time consuming and a band aid solution
or
showcase it on E-bay for 1 million dollars
won't stop the situation (though it is a cool idea!)
I'm sure I'm not the only concerned collector who's reported these items to eBay. I'm beginning to believe they need outside pressure, on top of more people reporting it, as well as bad publicity. With bad publicity a person risks being banned from using eBay (which is not in our best interest). After all, large organizations have been known to fight back when they're hampered from making profits (they take a cut off this gold flag action!)
Its only in eBay's best interest TO STOP the sales of these PHONY Gold Flag NOTES -- if we join together to point out that its a fraudulent item, continue to contact BOC, the currency museum, people who've purchased the notes, etc. To continue putting on the "heat"
And to all those who've already helped --
THANKS!!!!
James
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The thing is, people cannot be protected from themselves. I let a few people know last night that they weren't bidding on BoC special edition notes. I got a thank you back, and I noticed in one case, the user did not bid again after being out bid. I also got a reply that basicly told me to go away as it was his own choice to bid on the item if he wanted to. Not my money, ok, have at it. I'm wondering if a buzz about these bills hasn't started to make them a collectable on their own out of speculation. The market price has doubled and tripled for these in the last two to three months. I'd like to be a fly on the wall when one of those bills get brought into a bricks and morter store to be sold and the owner finds out his $50 purchase isn't even worth the UNC price anymore.
[smiley=beer.gif]
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I have always thought this was something that could turn a new or young collectors away from this great hobby after realizing they were taken advantage of. It is the same as those error notes that were hand cut from sheets. I still know some of the sellers that used to sell those and I refuse to bid on any of there items.
I had put some minor error notes up awhile back and got an email from one of these sellers asking what the error was and my response was"well it's not as easy to see like if you were to cut your own error from a sheet" that shut him up.
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Printing something on a piece of paper is not counterfeiting under any forelorn definition. I printed business cards on obsolete Yugoslavians notes, notes that have no value in Canada, and no status in Canada. They are not legal tender anywhere. They were sort of cute, made an interesting business card if nothing else. They were not sold, but made up for a particular client who wanted something different.
We had a discussion some time ago about and 1898 $1 note with an extra 0 added to make it look like a $10 note. Although no similar note was produced (which a good collector can look up in his Charlton), I feel such items are counterfeit, a great many other people on here did not agree.
Adding something to a note which makes it appear to be something it is not, is counterfeiting. Adding a flag on the back or a postage stamp, or one of those notes that are counterprinted to trace the travels of the note is not counterfeiting, just a little picture added. Amazing what some people wll do to diddle a note. Of course, no real collector wants such items.
Rick
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looks like you all have your mission accomplished
no more gold flags or polar bears for sale.
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Sadly a new 'gold flag' note was listed today in the morning. I still think that most of the bigger dealers will not be listing anymore anytime soon, or at least will change the item description drastically.
On the other hand if nothing changes I just thought of an amazing investment. Purchase the bundle of 1967 notes that is listed on ebay for $330 buy a two dollar stamp and sell them for $30-$50 each - roughly pulling in $2000-4000 ;D.........I'm kidding
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Au contraire, mon ami. There are still at least three to be found, by simply searching for "gold flag".
However, one seller has decided to end his auctions early due to "an error in the listing." A good sign indeed.
Rest assured, this crusade is not over.
Don't forget to check out my guide that I wrote about these notes, and please vote for it to say it was helpful. By increasing the vote, it improves the visibility of the guide and thus helps make people aware of the issue.
[size=18]Click here![/size] (http://tinyurl.com/mzcqc)[/url]
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I just voted my "Yes" the article was helpful...it now says 10/12 members voted "yes". Wonder if the dissenting 2/12 were a couple of the con artists who are pretty much out of business now? ;)
In reading BWJM's report on eBay with the statement made by the Bank of Canada, you've got to wonder about their legal department and why it's taking so long for them to outlaw these notes. Haven't the gold flag and polar bear notes been selling for at least 6 months by now?
At the very least you would think the BofC would have succeeded by now in getting the RCMP or the courts to prohibit eBay from letting people continue to sell these forgeries! >:( If nothing else the sellers could be charged for defacing legal tender.
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Voted yes, didn't know you could write such guides on ebay. Also didn't know you speak french Brent ;) any other hidden talents? Perhaps juggling?
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Voted yes, didn't know you could write such guides on ebay. Also didn't know you speak french Brent ;) any other hidden talents? Perhaps juggling?
If you can juggle, Brent, let me and eyevet know. We can get you a big fancy hat, poofy coloured pants, and long pointy shoes with bells on the end and we can be the 21st century version of The Three Stooges...or find us a 4th member and we can be the Foolish Foursome! ;D
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LMAO - Nice! No I can't juggle, and my French sucks. I just know how to use Google Translator.
Those who haven't voted for that guide, please do so that we can help put an end to this problem.
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Gotta be careful with those online translators, though...I once translated "You're bugging me" from English to French, and then from French back to English to see if I got a true rendering. It came back as "You're giving me insects"...
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I was watching a Gold flag auction last night and all three bidders cancelled there bids of over $50.U.S. and it went unsold. :)
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Are we seeing an improvement in this situation? A positive push forward in the fight against these mutilated notes? Perhaps!
[size=18]Click here![/size] (http://tinyurl.com/mzcqc)[/url] to view the eBay guide I wrote on this subject and please vote that it is useful. The more positive votes we get, the more impact it will have.
Keep up your own efforts at minimizing the sale of these notes too however you do that, whether it be contacting buyers, picketing the eBay offices, laying on a pair of train tracks with a sign taped to your chest (ok, don't do this), or whatever. With enough consistent and persisting effort, we can all help cure cancer end the sale of these notes once and for all. ;)
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I was watching a Gold flag auction last night and all three bidders cancelled there bids of over $50.U.S. and it went unsold. :)
YEA!!! I've been send the link to Brent's page to bidders on these auctions. Guerrilla warfare works!!!
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Thanks all!
I emailed 3 of the top bidders on last night's gold flag (directing them to Brent's very insightful eBay guide) so I'm hoping that had some effect. However as "hammer" rightly pointed out "people cannot be protected from themselves" at times. The unauthorized overprints continue to be put up for auction on eBay.
Often novice collectors get the "Fred Flintstone" syndrome and believe that their collecting strategy will make them a million bucks some day (and nobody is going to tell them different!). Once they realize they've been "had" then they mistrust everyone, and of course, eventually drop out of the collecting scene. If we can prevent 1/2 dozen unwary potential collectors of the scam, then we've contributed significantly to damage control over these fraudulent "Collector's items."
Congrats to all those who've helped!
It makes me proud to be a part of this community... ;)
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Often novice collectors get the "Fred Flintstone" syndrome and believe that their collecting strategy will make them a million bucks some day (and nobody is going to tell them different!).
Define "novice"? I've seem some pretty sharp people get paper money stupid on much bigger ticket items although it is good to see the gold flag thingy has been smited or smote or what the hell ever.
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SAD BUT TRUE
Travsy I take back what I said about "novice" collectors
[highlight]You are quite correct[/highlight]! :'(
some pretty sharp people get paper money stupid
I have just received an email from one a bidder on the Gold Flag who
has thanked me for the warning but is now all the more ardent to buy one due to "the increased controversy over this new note!"
So the battle ain't over,
the fight continues!
Maybe we ought to put up a note and start it at $1000,000.00
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A couple responses to the notes that I sent to some recent bidders:
thank you for imforming me please do not ship and refund paypal thank you
Thank you for the heads up up on this item.
By any chance have you been able to determine who is the original distributer or source of these bills?
I have had communication with a number of ebay members about this item and received different stories from many of them.
Thank you
Dear Sir
I appreciate your concern regarding the Bill with the Gold Flag overprints, I have done some investigateing myself and frankly i think these bills are even more unique then ever before.
These bills are authentic Bank Of Canada Issues that someone has overprinted the flag on which makes them in my estitmate even more valueble.
Thanks anyway.
I also just noticed that one gold flag $1 auction was ended early this afternoon! :D
The saga continues. ;)
For anyone who wants to look back at old threads, here are some links:
http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1137900153/0#0
http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1122077129/0#0
http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1127782186/0#0
http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1131376598/0#0
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A couple responses to the notes that I sent to some recent bidders:Dear Sir
I appreciate your concern regarding the Bill with the Gold Flag overprints, I have done some investigateing myself and frankly i think these bills are even more unique then ever before.
These bills are authentic Bank Of Canada Issues that someone has overprinted the flag on which makes them in my estitmate even more valueble.
Thanks anyway.
"estitmate" indeed! Knowing that there really ARE boobs like this out there, I am almost tempted to go ahead with the idea I toyed with a couple months ago...i.e. getting a Toucan Sam stamp and making a set of Toucan Sam Journey notes with the $5 to the $100 bill. Sure, the serial numbers would be different ::), but I would of course add to each note a matching set number (as is done with Specimen notes).
Brent, I do hope you gave this person the hot tip that he could vastly improve the value of his portfolio by acquiring an authentic Bank of Canada 1986 $2 issue that someone has overprinted a polar bear on?? :question :-? :question
:exclamation :exclamationI just thought of something! Forget Toucan Sam...I would have to pay royalties to the Froot Loops people. The Loonie coin will be celebrating its 20th anniversary next year! I am going to release my OWN limited-edition run of 1973 $1 notes with an image of our Loonie coin stamped on them and the caption "1987-2007".
Oh, sh*t!! Did I just let my million-dollar idea slip out? :-[ :'( >:(
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Anyone else find it somewhat amusing (in a going to the dentist and getting your wisdom teeth ripped out of your skull by a deranged dentist on speed) kinda way, that while there is much to do about people dropping $20-70 on ebay for 1967 notes with lil gold flags on em, any post that points out a blatant rip in any other area of this fine hobby, be it on ebay or otherwise and usually involving much more signifigant sums, gets locked faster than a randy maiden's chastity belt?
I'm thinking that in a year or two many of the people that have been getting raped by "trustworthy expert paper money dealers n collectors" over the past little while are going to be sorely upset they didn't get stuck with a fistful of 1967 Notes with gold flags on em instead of the over-graded crap they are going to lose their asses on.
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Perhaps something that you're failing to realize is that nobody is making any remarks about the sellers of these notes, and nobody has posted any links to the auctions so as to make commenting about any particular person any easier. This is about the notes, and only about the notes. Thus, it is within the definition of what is encouraged here on the forums: discussion about the notes.
Even at the tail end of the guide that I wrote on eBay, I say the following:
(Note: There are several eBay sellers selling these items. Many of them do not know or realize the true story behind these notes. This guide is not meant to discredit any seller or comment negatively about any seller. This is about the notes, and only about the notes.)
PS: Vote for the guide at the bottom of this page: [size=14]CLICK HERE![/size] (http://tinyurl.com/mzcqc)[/url]
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What might be more productive than trying to point out bad sellers on eBay or elsewhere is for another guide to be posted to eBay educating collectors on how to grade notes and the pitfalls to watch out for (e.g. pressed notes, trimmed notes, small or blurry pictures in eBay listings, vague descriptions, fraudulent "error" notes).
The best way to defend the collecting community is to take an offensive approach through education rather than just warning novice collectors about this or that seller who is selling an overgraded note.
Are there any experts out there (which I am not) who could step up to this task as Brent has done with the Gold Flag/Polar Bear notes and post a guide on grading and buying from eBay? Once collectors know how to grade what they are bidding on, then any sellers who continue to sell overgraded junk will only incur negative feedback on themselves as the market becomes more sophisticated.
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The gold flag notes and polar bear notes should be likened to a coins that is counterstamped by the seller's initials. The value drops to face. There is nothing neat about ruined notes, and these are ruined. Face value is all they are worth, and one may have difficulty actually spending them.
Good article by Brent, fairly open in thought and not biased. I would like to add that anyone buying this trash is likely to have another piece of garbage. One gets what he pays for.
Rick
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Man BWJM, you sure are sensitive. What are you? Nine? Grow up for chrissakes. You did something good and it's helping people and that's commendable. However to say it isn't about the seller is hypocritical. The people you are emailing are too stupid to figure out who's item they're bidding on? lol. Anyhow relax big fella.
Venga, people don't want to know that their steal of a deal is an over-graded piece of crap 90% of the time and that certainly isn't restricted to ebay. They see what they want to see and apparently they want to get screwed so they get screwed. *shrug*
Just read a 3rd party grading thread ;D
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Travsy
Its not a matter of being over-sensitive. CPMF is a public forum and as such there are certain rules of decorum, etiquette which should be followed. Criticism of the notes, the practice of selling an item as authentic, etc, is much better then getting into a full blown battle with the seller. I'm glad Brent is being very professional over this matter. It just means that he's covered his tracks. Its what I've tried to do also. Its only in this fashion that we as collectors can be united and beocme a bit political about unsavory practices. Yes there are a lot of other unsavory/unethical activity that goes on in this
arena....but over-grading is hard to police, as is the other practices you mention. I've been stung a few times, and once is too many times. To give you an idea of how little protection there really is READ ON:
Here's another response I got from BOC's EDUCATION department (I emailed every department I could think of):
Thank you for your complaint about the selling of special Canadian bank
notes on eBay.
As you know, the Bank of Canada has never issued bank notes bearing gold
flags.
The Bank of Canada does not support the sale of these novelty items.
The matter has been discussed with our legal department, as well as with
outside counsel. We know of no violation of the Copyright Act or the
Criminal Code (that directly affects the Bank) and, as a result, there
is little we can do to prevent the sale of these items. Prospective
purchasers of these items should always exercise due diligence when
bidding on any items.
A similar complaint to yours has been received in the past. We had
contacted eBay at the time to voice our concern. I do not know what
became of this but I will endeavour to find out.
Thank you again for bringing this matter to our attention.
As you can see they say there is "no violation of the Copyright Act or the Criminal Code" and that
it once again falls on the onus of the purchasers to "exercise due dilligence" when bidding on
any item found on eBay.
Some Gold Flag bidders have thanked me for the warnings, others have been less positive. Well at least they've been warned.
So now you understand why I started this thread and have encouraged any member that tunes into CPMF to
help in whatever way they can. Big thanks again to Brent for his eBay Guide...VERY HELPFUL indeed!
James ;)
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Shocking! The Bank of Canada can do nothing about this? I would have thought that stamping these images on banknotes would amount to defacing currency. With the $2 Polar Bear notes, isn't there a copyright violation against the Royal Canadian Mint, the owner of the image on the $2 coin that is being stamped on the $2 bills?
As Travsy points out, one person was so dumb in their reply to Brent that they asked HIM to cancel their Paypal payment and not ship the notes? :-? Others think the "controversy" we are raising about these notes make them MORE valuable (i.e. more than the $50 USD that some of them have already sold for)? :o
Maybe I SHOULD try selling 1973 $1 bills next year stamped with an image of our Loonie coin to celebrate its 20th anniversary. Seems there are a lot of people on eBay who are dumb, are proud of being dumb, know they being ripped off and want to be ripped off. I guess they figure the gold maple leaf on the 1967 $1 note "looks pretty" so that increases its value :P. Luckily for these idiots, there is no shortage of sellers who are more than happy to fill the demand for such garbage!
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For those that wondered about JOP counterstamped silver dollars. I think they are defaced, but these are widely collected. Crap added to notes defaces them, perhaps to the extent of making them no more than face value. I mentioned earlier, that printing, writing, or adding a cute sticker is not against the law, the currency act or copyright laws as far as I understand them. It is sort of a pity that people will buy trash and pay real money to get them.
I do not know the origin nor do I know any of the sellers or buyers. The ebay section was removed because if turned into a slam fest. Criticize the note, the selling methods, the legalities of it, but mention not the seller or eBay item. Be aware of slander and libel laws.
Rick
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All Gold Flag auctions are now delisted from eBay! :D
The final seller sent me an email today saying he ended his auction early. No more auctions have been listed since the gold flag guide was posted. I believe we are finally making some progress on this issue. I hope that it is sustained.
Keep your eyes out for future auctions. This is by no means over yet.
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congrats everyone who believe in the true beauty of a note and not the insulting/defacing of our great country. I think it is now time to get off my soap box. Thanks Brent
Polarbear ;D
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I knew it wouldn't last long. Another gold flag note has been listed (and reported) ;)
Maybe if eBay gets enough complaints about the auctions, they might take some action. Thoughts?
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I doubt it, Ebay most likely will not take action unless someone is listing something illegal or if they had a million complaints about the item. In total there has been say a 100 complaints about the gold flag issue which I do not think ebay is too concerned about. But if the writers of the 100 complaints keep complaining day in day out they might just get annoyed enough to do something ;) We need to be persistent ;D
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Bank of Canada calls the practice "fraudulent"
and the notes themselves -- "novelty items"
They said they were looking into it...
It makes me wonder if someone up high from the BOC is behind the scheme..
JB
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And now there are currently three gold flag notes online. Reported.
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Thanks for this thread (and the eBay guide). I've been watching these frauds for months. I fail to understand how any collector would believe a group of banknotes almost 40 years old could suddenly appear with the added flag or polar bear without any prior knowledge. It amazes me to see the prices aked (and bid), for what is actually a defaced banknote. I also have asked some of the sellers early on about the source and validity of these things. Their lack of response was clear evidence of the phoney character of the overprints. Do any of the forum members have information where the banknotes came from?
blumax
Florida
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My guess, some guy with a stamp and a lot of useless notes to sell ;D
Welcome to the forums blumax.
Gold flag count on ebay: 5!
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I just sent in a couple of questions about the gold flag note currently on ebay. I will post them if the seller replies.
Rick
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Reported the two newest ones. Told you this was far from over. >:(
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I spoke to one of the sellers of the gold flag notes no names mentioned. The reason I spoke to him is because I knew him. He mention that he was unaware that these notes were ‘fraudulent’ and says that he just wanted to sell them since he purchased them earlier, years back, and wanted to sell them. O well, at least the percentage of notes being offered on ebay has drop dramatically - progress has been made
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Reported the two newest ones. >:(
BWJM, what do you mean reported? Does that mean you spoke to the seller or reported the seller to ebay?
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I mean using the "Report this item" link at the bottom of the auctions and claiming it to be a counterfeit or something. (Going for the best match rather than an exact one).
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Seems there are some people with an agenda to quash the sale of anything that they can't either control or reap a profit from.
Actually it is quite the opposite, anyone can purchase a stamp and create an additional 5000 of these 'limited' and 'desirable' notes and laugh all the way to the bank - the difference is they choose not to. I do agree that if the note was properly marketed it could be sold legitimately, but I am not sure who would be willing to purchase a defaced note. Though clever, it is still fraud. The limited quantity, as stated by the sellers is misleading and the bill is made out to be something that it is not - rare.
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Could you tell me how the gold flag is attached? Is it printed or glued in place?
Where do you get the number of 5000 printed? Printed by whom?
Rick
i got the number 5000 from the five different people that i bought these bills from. that's what i'm going by. i don't want all five so i'm selling some. if you feel the paper where the flag is. it feels just like the rest of the bill. pretty good job i'd say. maybe they are worth more money just because of what they are and some people might just want to have them.thanks for writing. (name removed)
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That's exactly it, no one knows how many there is. The 5000 quantity comes from all of the sellers, though where it originated no one knows. My guess is that the individual that made these bills only made 5000 of them or a seller of these bills stated that there was only 5000 printed to entice collectors to purchase the note.
The flag is placed onto the note via a stamp, I have also seen 'alleged' error gold flag notes where the flag is 'misplaced' elsewhere on the note.
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The previous posting was my question to the seller, and his answer. His answer appears to show that the flag is printed, either with an inked stamp or from a colour printer. He has no real answer to the questions, I only asked him as he currently has a listing on eBay.
Rick
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Rachelsprivates:
I understand the value of being a "devil's advocate" especially for topics worthy of debate. However, in this case, auctioning the so-called "rare gold flag centennial note" or "limited edition" gold flag note, really shouldn't be a topic for debate simply because the BOC has had nothing to do with its issue.
Not only were 12,000,000 notes printed with no serial (but dates) but it turns out they were hoarded by Canadians. Even today's book of $5.00 is probably inflated. BOC labels these notes "[highlight]novelty items[/highlight]" which is almost like degrading the bill to a good copy of an old note (which has been done in the US and they're worthless to most collectors). BOC also calls this kind of activity [highlight]"fraudulent"[/highlight] since the stamping/over-print was never authorized by the bank.
So whether a person has actually stamped 5000 (or 500) it simply doesn't matter either way.
This item is not collectible and shouldn't even be on eBay
Although some sellers state these notes have a gold flag "overprint" the general gist of their sales pitch is that these notes are rare and exceptionally collectible.
Its like passing off a fake Rolex as the genuine article. I have never seen one of these notes being reported as 1 of 12 million printed with a BV of approximately $5.00 even though most dealers/collectors would be hard pressed to give you face for the note.
What I think we are now seeing is some of the "victims" who bought the bills, trying to unload them in face of the facts.
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There wouldn't be a problem with these collectible items if they were just marketed properly. Someone thought of a clever idea to market otherwise worthless notes.
Yes, I am well aware that 1967 notes w/o serial numbers catalogue for $5 in Unc, but who buys these things anyway?
Seems there are some people with an agenda to quash the sale of anything that they can't either control or reap a profit from.
I'm not playing devil's advocate, just trying to present a another point of view with the hopes of striking a balanced debate. :'(
Hiya Rachel.....
The only problem with it is the seller of MOST of the FLAGS + BEARS and in my opinion
likely the maker of the stamp makes the auction sound as if this is some special
BOC issue. Using the 5000 number. I bet there aren't more than a few hundred around
maybe much less.
In order for something to be marketed PROPERLY in must be markted HONESTLY.
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Well just to rebuttal the brick hunter statement. First the brick hunters find a suspected range and than the BOC confirms those ranges. There has been many situations where someone has claimed that they found a range but the Bank of Canada did not confirm the suspected range. So in short this leaves little to no room for bias.
As for the quote from the movie, very funny ;D
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What about privy-marked Silver Maple Leaf coins?
As-issued from the Royal Canadian Mint. The privy-marks are NOT after-market alterations performed by people looking to make a few bucks.
Well just to rebuttal the brick hunter statement. First the brick hunters find a suspected range and than the BOC confirms those ranges. There has been many situations where someone has claimed that they found a range but the Bank of Canada did not confirm the suspected range. So in short this leaves little to no room for bias.
Careful on that one, my friend. The Bank of Canada has remained quiet on insert ranges. They have not confirmed any insert ranges directly, aside from a single group of FEP notes. Even then, the range itself was not confirmed, merely the existence of some notes "printed at the beginning of the note order which were set aside to be used as replacement notes."
Insert ranges are deemed "confirmed" when inserts of similar numbers were found by several independent brick searchers whose data is collaborated.
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Reaaally, my apologies. Hmm I thought different, evidently I’m wrong :-[
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I guess people do collect fakes, forgeries, overprints, and notes with defacement (stampings on them). Whether that will be a new "trend" in collecting time will tell.
I won't be betting on it.
A note with a famous person's signature on it is another matter altogether (some collectors prefer a note with some history or pedigree)
A forum member reported a 1979 "33" $5 test note stamped with "Where's Willy?" which would be collectible (since so few test notes were issued and they are --after all -- extremely rare with a unique serial #), and it apparently is still floating around in circulation (if you believe the website). I suppose every collector is different. I will take a clean pressed note (lightly) over one that's got writing, tears, or stains on it -- but it should be rare.
I put a 04 BER note that was in flawless crisp condition back into circulation before I knew how scarce even the 2004 BER notes were. But it was stamped with the "Where's Willy" ink, and to me, its only worth face value. If I had it in my collection now...I'm sure I'd be fretting about how to ditch it. Maybe that's my "weakness" as a collector -- but it hasn't cost me anything to be selective (and it usually pays off in the long run).
The "Gold Flags" will continue to be "dumped" on the internet (and sold to the uninformed). You won't see any of these sullied notes sold at shows, dealers, or live auctions.
I think this only proves that meeting a dealer, going to shows, and networking with fellow collectors is an activity that's priceless. Information is key....
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Gold flag notes (and the polar bear phoney) are exploiting people's lack of knowledge. It is a deliberate addition to the note: true. Applied by a non-BOC party: true.
When someone comes out with these and is demanding such a large premium for them right off the bat, you know the motive can only be simply that, profit. Profit by way of exploitation. Turning lead into gold, but perhaps fools gold.
Brick research and insert notes: Need to be collaborated by several reliable sources. Countless hours of work go into this, providing the entire collecting body with information that they can learn from, in regards to the process of printing notes and replacing them and so forth. Comparing the two is apples to oranges. Brick hunters and insert ranges were not designed to exploit, rather they came about as a result of trying to educate ourselves on what the heck the BOC was doing. As a result, we have insert ranges (some being quite scarce).
Hudson
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:( I purchased a bunch of notes together and a "gold flag" was included, but I had never heard of the issue until much after my purchase. :'( Very sad because the note it was printed on was nice and crisp. I don't even remember who I bought it from. I guess we should hold onto to these notes as a reminder of the evil that men do! Such greed!!
Donna
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Donna, consider the flag note as "giftware". A rather neat item with no bearing on the note's being collectable. As long as you didn't pay too much, mark it as a lesson learned. It is one of several notes that are printed/altered after the fact. A great piece for display to show the less informed.
Rick
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Here is the description on a current gold flag auction: ::) ::) ::)
Description
UP FOR BIDS ARE ONE OF EACH LEGAL TENDER 1967 CENTENNIAL ONE DOLLAR BILL WITH THE MYSTERIOUS GOLD FLAG "OVERPRINT" AND THE 1986 TWO DOLLAR BILL WITH THE GOLD BEAR "OVERPRINT". THESE BILLS WERE OVERPRINTED BY SOMEONE (NOT ME) AND WERE NEVER AUTHORIZED BY THE BANK OF CANADA BUT THEY ARE AUTHENTIC CANADIAN BANK NOTES AND THEY ARE IN UNC MINT CONDITION. MYSTERIOUS THEY ARE AND WOULD MAKE A GREAT ADDITION TO ANY COLLECTION. FINAL SALE ONE OF EACH ONLY. THANKS.
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What?! The Gold Bear overprint is not mysterious too??
Be sure to watch out next year for those "mysterious" 1973 $1 notes with a "mysterious" Gold Loonie overprint ::) :-X...
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I'm looking for one of those mysterious 1867 1967 centennial notes with the mysterious asterisk overprint ;) .
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I'm looking for one of those mysterious 1867 1967 centennial notes with the mysterious asterisk overprint ;) .
Forget the Centennial notes...if someone could add a convincing mysterious asterisk to a note wouldn't they choose to apply the mysterious asterisks to an UNC mysterious 1954 $5 Devil's Face? Then it would be worth a mysterious $12,000! Or they could get even more money by applying an asterisk to only one side and create a one-of-a-kind, mysterious, 1954 $5 Devil's Face Replacement "Missing Asterisk" error note... ::)
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I'm waiting for the "Rare Error" auction with a centennial $1 bill with the "missing gold flag" error!!!! ::)
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Hey, I've got one of those! Wanna buy it? I also have some rare 1986 $2 bills missing the polar bear...
Now when are we going to see those rare inverted maple leaf errors where the gold maple leaf is stamped upside-down, or even stamped on the back of the note? ;)
I saw 2 gold leaf '67 notes being auctioned on eBay this weekend, but at least the sale of these notes has slowed to a crawl. :)
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YEAH! :exclamation ;D
(The notes are still being auctioned but at least the hyperbole (& over-inflated prices) seem to have abated)
Information is empowering!
See how the CPMF can be a powerful medium? Congrats all!
James
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One is up on E Bay now. With 2 hours left to go, price is USD $13. A far cry from the $50 plus a month or so ago. I've sent the current high bidder a message a link to the review done up by bwjmackie. Although we were able to seriously reduce the market value of these things, they are not going to go away.
[smiley=beer.gif]
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There won't be any "Gold Flags" at the Torex ;D
Anyway--the idea was to raise public awareness of the hyperbole many sellers were using to promote what BOC dubs as a "novelty item" If people want to spend that kind of dough on something uncollectible by paper money collectors I guess its their business! As some on the forum here have suggested -- maybe they will increase in value by their notoriety -- but their origin/their quality is no long UNC nor of interest to most in this community.
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Actually, I will be selling several of these rare rare notes at Torex ;D. On a more serious note, I doubt these notes will ever increase in value. Most of the individuals purchasing these notes off ebay had low ebay ratings and had little to no experience with paper money. Therefore once they figure out they have been dupted their will be no one left to collect these notes, except new comers I suppose.
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I guess Brent's article on eBay has been effective in stopping the nonsense with the Gold Flag/Polar Bear notes...I just saw on eBay today a listing for some regular 1967 $1 notes, with a Gold Flag note being thrown in free! How quickly things change - now people are giving them away when just a short while ago they were selling for $50 USD or more!!
The same seller is also offering a free Polar Bear $2 note with the purchase of some regular 1986 $2 notes.
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I think that is awesome news. Everyone (especially Brent) who put their effort into putting this scam to rest deserves a pat on the back. On behalf of many new collectors - (I was one too, not so long ago), THANK YOU.
Huds
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Thanks Huds! And thanks again to Brent for helping with that insightful ebay forum.
I guess being a "big mouth" can help sometimes ::) Its nice to know that the CPM can also flex a little political clout when needed. I want to thank anyone who's helped in some way or another. It not only speaks well of all collectors/dealers concerned -- but spruces up our general reputation when we put a stop to such scams.
Incidently (on another matter entirely) if interested you may like to read my letter to the editor of CCN. It pertains to the growing # of paper money enthusiasts and the lack of paper money coverage in the CCN. I will insert it into a new thread here.
Cheers!
James
PS: look forward to seeing you Huds at the Falls!
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Not Again!!!! :o
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This year is the 20th anniversary of the $1 coin. I'm still waiting to see the "special edition" 1973 $1 notes stamped with a golden loonie double-dated 1987-2007 ::)
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This year is the 20th anniversary of the $1 coin. I'm still waiting to see the "special edition" 1973 $1 notes stamped with a golden loonie double-dated 1987-2007
At the height of the popularity of GOLD FLAG notes there was a $1 note with a loonie with 1987-2007 mentioned aswell as a BRONZE BEAR $2 note.I think the most I had seen one gold flag note sell for was $65. CND. and $40 was common.
I'm happy to see that none of these recent GOLD FLAG notes have been sold yet.
I still have a few sellers I will not buy from because of the fact that they have taken advantage of newcomers in the past by selling home made gold flag notes as well as hand made cutting errors cut from sheets of notes.Even if they were selling $100 notes for $5 I would not buy from them.
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I think the most I had seen one gold flag note sell for was $65. CND. and $40 was common.
Gary-- I didn't realize that the frenzy for the "Gold Flag" had gotten so out of hand.
I still have a few sellers I will not buy from because of the fact that they have taken advantage of newcomers in the past by selling home made gold flag notes as well as hand made cutting errors cut from sheets of notes.
I have written an eBay Guide about this manufactured cutting error problem. I have also emailed several bidders who are unknowingly bidding on such "manufactured errors." I've tried to report a few of the sellers but to no avail (you cannot report a seller unless you have a transaction with them).
Even if they were selling $100 notes for $5 I would not buy from them
I feel exactly the same and its good to know that there are other members out there who feel the same ..
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One of these is currently on E Bay right now, price is $23. Currently two bidders, one newbie and one with some feedback. Hate to see it. I sent the link to the guide to both of them, but someone is likely going to get stuck with it.
:)
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I also sent an email to both of the eBay bidders.
Hopefully if they hear from two different eBay members, and view the eBay guide, they will be swayed
away from purchasing this note.
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It looks like the Gold flags are making a comeback. In addition to the one currently listed on eBay,
a different seller sold 5 of these notes as a Buy It Now on April 26th for US $14.95 each.
See eBay item # 290109304311
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Just after this auction ended I tried to contact the buyer of these notes to warn him but I was not allowed I guess because the auction had already ended?
This sale was a shame because this was this buyers first transaction. I was hoping that the buyer with a feedback of zero may not pay for these notes.
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http://search.ebay.ca/ws/search/AdvSearch?sofocus=bs&sacat=-1&catref=C5&fbd=1&sspagename=h:h:advsearch:CA&from=R6&nojspr=y&fswc=1&fss=0&saslop=1&fls=4&floc=1&sargn=-1&saslc=0&salic=2&saatc=2&sadis=200&fpos=T6H%205J3&sacur=0&sacqyop=ge&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saaff=afdefault&fsop=1&fsoo=1&fcl=3&frpp=50&sofindtype=3&pfid=
From this link you can always search someone - instead of contacting them through an auction... it would be good in this case perhaps.
H
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Just after this auction ended I tried to contact the buyer of these notes to warn him but I was not allowed I guess because the auction had already ended
I've tried to warn a few bidders about the manufactured errors (cutting off a sheet) and got a warning about contacting another ebay member when I had no transaction with him/her. I also tried to report the seller (as fraudulent activity) and was blocked because I didn't buy from him.
Its extremely frustrating how few checks and balances are currently in this system. Its fraught with abuse. I know of a person who auctioned off an "air guitar" and sent the "winner" an empty box!
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I know of a person who auctioned off an "air guitar" and sent the "winner" an empty box!
That has gotta be the funniest/saddest things ever to have happened since the dawn of time. I wil be sharing that one with my students when we talk about business.
Speaking of which, there is one on right now!
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Custom-Gibson-Les-Paul-Electric-AIR-GUITAR-NEW_W0QQitemZ250112055684QQihZ015QQcategoryZ621QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
(Not note related, so not sure if I can post it)
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Just going through some of the 'Radar' bills on Ebay yesterday had me frustrated at how many weren't even close to being a radar! :(
I'm not an ebayer but would love to ask the person what they were smoking when they put the ad in or if they really think some of us are that stupid, but you can't do anything like you said.
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You can always report them for "keyword spamming"
Bookmark this link forthose that abuse keywords (such as UNC, or RADAR, or NEW, etc... or NIKE - same thing:
http://tinyurl.com/5u5gob
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Here's one off of eBay:
"This item comes with it's Plastic Protective Cover. I'm a regular Bank of Canada Note seller.
This note is SPECIAL because it's serial number is "EEP7522287." This note consist the serial number of "EEP" and a 4 Digit Radar Note."
Don't you just want to smack him?!
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I am not in favour of these notes, selling as legitimate. They are simply over printed with a silly slogan, or flag or bear or whatever. They are not a counterfeit anything, perhaps poor taste.
None of us can police the taste of eBay sellers or indeed the taste eBay buyers, such trash often fills the internet site to the brim.
Sell it for what it is, not tell an untruth about its possible legit status as it has none.
Urge people not to buy them.
Rick
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Thanks for the link Hudson:
It's now Buy it now approach for listing these dubious notes for unsuspecting collectors. Two more came online !
>:(
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Return of the "Gold Flag"! Just when you thought this issue has disappeared into history...
Today I just noticed one of these popping up on eBay # 130262246354.
I've also realized that the "Buying guide(s)" where the commentary on Gold Flag notes is no longer available as well. So what does this tell you?
At least the seller mentions it as a private mark in the description.
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eBay has kind of "hidden" the Reviews written by other eBay members. You have to really dig deep to find the eBay reviews for different catagories. They are all cached somewhere in eBay trillions upon trillions of bits and bites. I believe they got rid the Top 100 reviews, etc.
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These "RARE" Gold flaq notes are going for $16.00 and more!
Jeez-- I guess the market slump only applies to legit notes.
Too bad no one is reading the eBay Reviews
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I know, I was shocked to see one end for $26.00 U.S. item (# 130269820759 ) but it explains that the gold flag was put there by a private company. So the buyer is not reading the description or not understanding it.
The reviews are very hard to find now not like before when you could see them with the title GOLD FLAG on the left side of the page with the listings on them.
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These "RARE" Gold flaq notes are going for $16.00 and more!
Jeez-- I guess the market slump only applies to legit notes.
Too bad no one is reading the eBay Reviews
UNC 1967 note $2.50
Gold Flag stamp .99 (at local dollar store)
Total cost $3.49
Gross Profit $12.51 (less Ebay,Paypal, S&H)
Net Profit $10.00 ;D
I guess this is one way to keep a float during the coming recession.
Anyone interested in buyng a Gold Flag stamp....I might get a deal on a gross ;D