CPM Forum
General => General Forum Comments => Topic started by: Archey80 on November 23, 2006, 05:29:16 pm
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ya hang on I almost passed out WOW
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Is this something you recently purchased? Or is it for sale?
Either way that is one beautiful trophy note!!
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Sorry Archey, looks like it's mine now! ;)
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LOL NO! I want it so bad but cant afford it its for sale on ebay the first 5 mins. it went to 4049.99 I was out bid at 3999.99 :'(
Arthur
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Damm, that is one FINE note! The bid is now at $11,100 USD. The story about how this note was discovered is fascinating.
Wonder if the woman in New Jersey who inherited this note (and other UNC notes from 1935-1954!) from her grandmother is single? ;)
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LOL who cares now that shes has sold/selling everthing :(
Arthur
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JFYI-My wife bought two Consecutive 1935 $2's Original Unc notes from this seller and the same consignment lot.
The notes were incredible and totally Original.I'm very particular,had the notes not been Original Unc I'd have insisted she return them for that reason.
She received a great price for the pair(auction was a little slow?!),shipped Fedex in one day.The seller also mentioned to my wife he had another set coming from this 'find' tonight on ebay.
I know I will be bidding,I missed the last ones ;)
Just a heads up,great,credible seller imo.
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My wife bought two Consecutive 1935 $2's Original Unc notes from this seller and the same consignment lot.The seller also mentioned to my wife he had another set coming from this 'find' tonight on ebay.
They are now up on ebay if anyone is interested.
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OMG, you have to be kidding me. What a story. And what a note.
It's gonna fetch a pretty penny
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Looks that way bux,I was just outbid as well!! :( ::) :-/
Seems I'm a little confused tonight,lol! I was outbid on the $2's and am lead bid the 1935 $50.
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It's crazy! :o The note is now at $12,669.54 Canadian. Who knows how much it will go for... :-/ Still over 9 days to go!
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It's crazy! :o The note is now at $12,669.54 Canadian. Who knows how much it will go for... :-/ Still over 9 days to go!
We had a long discussion concerning the rarity and value of the $50 1937 Osborne note in true original Unc back in August of this year:
http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1155596315
At that time I expressed considerable personal doubt that this note was worth $15,000 (the Charlton book value) but the one on eBay seems to be heading rapidly in that direction and it may in fact surpass the Charlton book value!
I noticed that the eBay seller stated that there were "several high grade 1937 Osborne signature $50 notes" in the hoard! One wonders how high grade and how many?!
I also noticed that the seller graded the $50 1937 Osborne as CHOICE Unc whereas the same seller has two outrageous 1935 $50 notes on offer in GEM Unc!! Thus, the $50 1937 Osborne may conceivably have some signs of handling whereas the $50 1935 notes may not(??)
Personally speaking, I wouldn't want to bid close to catalogue value on a sight-unseen basis although there's no denying that the notes look totally superb in the eBay scans.
If nothing else, it all goes to show that the world is a very large place and that similar new discoveries are likely to come to light again in the future. After all, magnificent paper money discoveries have been made for the last 50 or more years and I don't think they will suddenly stop now.
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If nothing else, it all goes to show that the world is a very large place and that similar new discoveries are likely to come to light again in the future. After all, magnificent paper money discoveries have been made for the last 50 or more years and I don't think they will suddenly stop now.
The discovery of this "New Jersey" hoard reminds me of a related hoard of Bank of Canada 1935 notes that came to light in Ottawa in 1995 and which was reported at the time.
The Ottawa hoard comprised 39 $2 notes (35 English & 4 French), 34 $10 notes (32 English & 2 French) and 25 $20 notes (21 English & 4 French). The condition varied widely but there was a Choice Unc pair of $20 English Small Seal notes present. The hoard has since been dispersed.
Believe me when I say that there are many other hoards out there ......... somewhere. Unfortunately, some of these hoards may not see the light of day during our lifetimes!
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The note is now over book! :o Its at $15,430.56 CAN
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i am saying that it will probably sell for 20,000 plus CA if it is an unc it would be like finding a pink elephant it doesnot happen every decade to find one of these and chances are you will not see this one again in this decade
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If it sells for $20,000 or more. Would the book value go to 20k? Or would it stay around 15k?
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this price sets the book price imo
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A truly uncirculated** and original $50 1937 Osborne has never before appeared at a public auction --- at least I've never come across one in my 35 years of subscribing to Canadian and International numismatic auction catalogues. This sale should therefore logically set the catalogue price. However, if more uncirculated examples should appear in the future, which is always a possibility, then the catalogue price would presumably have to be amended in accordance with subsequent sale realizations.
** i.e., "uncirculated" on the strict Canadian/Charlton grading scale!
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I would beg to differ on the scarcity of the 1937 $50 Osbourne-Towers note in original UNC.
I have been looking for this note to fill a whole in several high end collections for at least 5 years. I have had lengthy discussions
with Chuck Moore about this note and he is only aware of one or two original UNC notes in private collections.
My client is willing to pay well over CDN $20K if this is a true original UNC note. Do not be surprised if this eBay auction tops that
amount.
...Arthur
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I am aware of two original UNCs, one I saw in Vancouver about a year ago. It was in a collection that was sold to a collector. We won't see that one for years or likely decades.
The other I sold about 5-8 years ago ( bad memory ! ) for $3800.oo which was over book at the time.
It is definitely a note in great demand and I get asked for high grade Osborne $50's at EVERY show.
OleDon
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I still can't get over the fact that someone would want to pay that much money for a variety of a note type that is not scarce at all. With $20,000 to blow, I would much rather buy an Unc Gordon-Towers (or three) and use the leftover money to buy, oh, perhaps a 1935 $50 in Unc.
Rachelsprivates is talking about the fact that this is a signature variety, and, at the end of the day, that's all it really is (albeit the first signature of the series). It's not a distinct design or "type" note like the 1935 $50. However, the 1937 Osbornes have always had a bit of a "cult" status in Canada (particularly on the Prairies I seem to recall), even back in the early 1970's when I started collecting paper. The $100 1937 Osborne is pretty scarce too in Unc and that may be the real "sleeper" of the series at current catalogue values ($4250 in Unc)....
The $50 1937 Osborne has a great following in Canada but, being a signature variety, it does not have such great appeal internationally. However, a type note like the $50 1935 will always have a strong international appeal.
Like many other rare notes, the $50 1937 Osborne in Unc is likely to become commoner in the future as more and more old safety deposit boxes around the continent are opened up (the completely unexpected appearance of the present Unc $50 1937 Osborne on eBay is a perfect example of this). The $1000 1954 Devil's Face note is another good example of this "getting commoner with time" phenomenon. That was a note you virtually never saw 20 years ago but now they seem to be turning up all over the place!
There's always a big risk paying a huge amount of money for the "first known example" to show up at public auction. However, some people are willing to take that risk in order to own, at least temporarily, something that no one else has ---- and who are we to argue with what another collector or investor should buy or should not buy?!
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I agree with Rachelprivates.. I just don't get it....
Jeez... even the dullest collector I know .. knows that high denominations are frequently stashed away in safety deposit boxes. With that kind of money to blow... I can point to at least 50 better options to invest in. Or should I say 50 more rare notes to consider. But there seems to be no end to speculation these days. There's just seems to be no end to the "wheeler-dealer" phenomenon that has juiced up this hobby as of late. I guess the so-called "winner" of that note hasn't read the Graham Esler report on the asterisk DF's. Man if I had that kind of coin to blow... it sure as h*&% wouldn't end up there!
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The catalog on those Osborne-Towers 1937 $50 UNCs has gone from $8000 in the 2003 to $15000 in the 2007 catalog. Maybe the 2011 catalog will price them close to $30000?? :-/
Then again with one more known, maybe the price will go down ::)
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The catalog value would continue to climb whether this note was in the marketplace or not. This note in UNC is scarcer than devil asterisks, possibly one of only three. A good indication of it's scarcity is that dealers are willing to paypal full catalog. The problem with the catalog continuing to rise (whether it's worth it or not) is fewer collectors can afford it. <br>We've seen this with other kilo-buck items, it floats around amongst dealers till one of them finds an investor or tucks it away themselves.
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The catalog on those Osborne-Towers 1937 $50 UNCs has gone from $8000 in the 2003 to $15000 in the 2007 catalog. Maybe the 2011 catalog will price them close to $30000?? :-/ Then again with one more known, maybe the price will go down ::)
The catalog value would continue to climb whether this note was in the marketplace or not. This note in UNC is scarcer than devil asterisks, possibly one of only three. A good indication of it's scarcity is that dealers are willing to pay full catalog.....
The more I think about it, the difficulty that I personally have in coming to grips with the current catalogue value (i.e., $15,000 in Unc) is that it's not obvious from the information available in the catalogue what the exact basis for the determination of that value is. There were certainly no public auction (i.e., transparent) sales at that level prior to publication of the catalogue. However, the highly-respected Charlton Pricing Panel presumably dealt with this sensitive issue in some detail when assigning the current catalogue value and I'm sure that it's pretty reliable. What is less clear is whether the high current eBay bid price on this note is merely a direct response to the high catalogue value or whether the Pricing Panel was able to price this note "dead on" even in the absence of a prior transparent public sale.
Another question that we don't address very often is "What is the value of a counting crease, or rather the lack of a counting crease?!" It seems to me that we are moving rapidly towards that dangerous precipice that coin collectors have already reached, and which some have fallen from. Why would anyone want to pay a premium of $5000-$10000 for the mere lack of a single minor counting flick? Personally speaking, I would rather have a superb original AU (i.e., original UNC with one trivial counting flick) at a heavily discounted price over the full UNC grade, especially if the AU note was better centered than the full UNC note. However, each unto his own ... Any takers??
By the way, that Unc $50 1937 Osborne on eBay is only graded as "Choice" Unc (not "Gem" Unc) by its American seller and I would wager money that I could locate some sort of handling mark on it!
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Agreed, an UNC with a counting flick is still UNC, IMO. If the seller calls it AU that's great for the buyer, as it's still better than the UNC that is actually pressed AU.
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I would think so. I would not be surprised if it went up 5,000-10,000$ Canadian in the next well under 20 mins.
Arthur
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I would think a great price
20,144.34 Canadian
Arthur
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I'd be curious to hear what the Jersey lady thinks about this. ;D I wonder if she had *any* idea at all the potential of her inheritance?! edit- and, of course, that's just *one* piece so far.
The high bidder was undoubtedly comfortable with the seller's assigned grade of this note (Choice Unc) as the seller and the high bidder have done business before (check the buyer's very first feedback in 2004).
I wonder what the same seller's $50 1935 Gem Unc notes will go for? --- only about 90 minutes to go on those!
Rare and high grade Bank of Canada material is obviously on a roll. I think we're going to see significant price increases on all original top-grade 1937 notes in the near future, even the "commoner" ones.
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I wonder what the same seller's $50 1935 Gem Unc notes will go for? --- only about 90 minutes to go on those!
And will the winner of that buy the second one or will the set be broken up :'(
Arthur
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Well it sold for 21,745.50 Canadian for the one note so 43,491.00 Canadian for the set of 2 thats a lot of money for 2 VERY nice notes. :o
Arthur
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As I just mentioned in another thread where buys/sells can be posted(seems extreme resistance to that!),before I saw your post,I was outbid by a measly $100 bucks! I bid $18,900usd :o
Hit the 4 instead of the $...it's the sun,thats what I'll blame it on :)
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AI was outbid by a measly $100 bucks! I bid 418,900usd :o
If you bid 418,900 i think it would be yours lol the bid was $18,900 us ;)
Arthur
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The high bidders on those $50 1935 and $50 1937 uncirculated rarities should be congratulated for expressing such strong confidence in the Canadian paper money market via their impressive bids.
The high bidders on the Gem Unc $50 1935 and the Choice Unc $50 1937 Osborne could provide further valuable service to Forum members by submitting a "condition report" after they have received their notes. Was the Gem Unc $50 1935 note really 100% flawless? Did the Choice Unc $50 1937 note have a few traces of handling?? -- presumably it did otherwise it too would have been graded as Gem rather than as Choice??
Wow, I just can't wait to receive the 20th (2008) edition of the Charlton catalogue next summer!
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Graham,
I will be inspecting the $50 Osbourne thoroughy as soon as it arrives. It was purchased under an eBay alias for an
associate of mine who has been searching for 7 years for an UNC example of this note to complete his 1937 collection.
He now has every denomination and every prefix for the 1937s in UNC including all specimens and proofs. Quite an
impressive collection. I will take better images of the note when it arrives and post them on the forum.
I am a very skeptical of US grading but this seller has sold quite a bit of Canadian Paper in the past and has a very
good understanding of our grading standards. She has assured us that this note is Choice UNC by Canadian standards.
...Arthur
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Ottawa wrote
The high bidders on those $50 1935 and $50 1937 uncirculated rarities should be congratulated for expressing such strong confidence in the Canadian paper money market via their impressive bids
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I for one have a very high level of confidence in the canadian Paper Money market.(I'm still miffed I lost the 1935 $50 by a lousy $100 bucks!!)
I try to embrace all aspects of paper collecting,dealers,profiteers,collectors,brick counters,ect.
The sum of the parts make a great whole!
One area I do have trouble with is TPG,although I accept its march forward,someone like Louis starting a grading service with members of the CPMS,would aleave some concerns-notes leaving the country,duties,Canadian vs. 'other' standards.
But I think we have a bigger problem-the end of paper and coin currency! We need to get busy,but that's another thread.
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....... It was purchased under an eBay alias for an associate of mine who has been searching for 7 years for an UNC example of this note to complete his 1937 collection. He now has every denomination and every prefix for the 1937s in UNC including all specimens and proofs. Quite an impressive collection.
Wow, that is indeed a totally awesome achievement (after all, there are some things that money cannot buy, or so it often seems)!! The Unc Gordon-Towers $10 Z/D must have been difficult to track down too although just a few years ago that note could probably have been picked up by a knowledgeable collector for the price of the common prefixes.
I salute you and your associate!
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Arthur,
Are you aware of who won the 1935$50,if so will they take both? darn,$18,900 didnt cut it! :(
Regards,Robert
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Hi Robert,
I recognize the eBay ID but I don't know who the collector/dealer is by name. I have done a little analysis of his past eBay
purchases and he appears to be a serious 1935 collector. About a month ago he purchased a 1935 $20 French specimen note on
eBay as a Submit Best Offer.
I would suggest you contact Marianne Ahern (ma*s_attic) and inquire as to whether the 2nd note is available.
mas_attic@comcast.net
With regards to your eBay bid, keep in mind that you have no idea what the bid proxy was of the winning bidder. You may have
bid another $1000 and still not won if his proxy was high. At least you were responsible for him paying as much as he did, as the
winning bid would have been a lot lower if you hadn't bid.
I'll let you know how accurate her grading of the $50 Osbourne is once I get it in my hands. I'll email you high resolution scans
of the note for your viewing pleasure.
If you are talking to Steve Oei, apologize for my tardiness in getting back to him. I have been heavily involved in a homicide
investigation which is monopolizing my time.
Regards,
...Arthur
Steve, if you are reading this post, I will try calling you shortly re: your emails and the FUN show in Orlando....sorry :-[
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Thanks Arthur,
I will look forward to the scans,I'm salivating as I type :)
You can send them to my Canadian address if you please,back in Vancouver next week.
Regards Steve,will do.
Hope you have a good outcome with the "investigation".
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Fact
An original UNC 1937 $50 Osbourne-Towers note has proven to be a very illusive banknote worthy of the high catalogue and market price it demands.
I was recently involved in the purchase of the 1937 $50 Osbourne-Towers (A/H0032857) that was listed on eBay as Choice Uncirculated by a well known US seller. I purchased this note off eBay and negotiated the private purchase of 3 additional 1937 $50 Osbourne-Towers notes from the same seller. The 3 additional notes were described as Choice UNC, Choice AU and AU.
Upon receipt, the notes were examined thoroughly for accuracy of the stated grade. All notes proved to be pressed. The AU notes were pressed EF at best. The UNC notes would grade pressed AU by Charlton or CPMS grading standards. None of the notes were original and all showed signs of processing.
The seller offered an unconditional money back guarantee and all 4 notes have been returned and a full refund received.
This has reinforced several lessons I have learned over 20+ years of collecting paper money:
1) US collectors / dealers are overly liberal in their grading and do not adhere to Canadian grading standards
2) As a collector it is invaluable to spend the time to learn to grade paper money and learn the nuances of detecting pressed or doctored banknotes
3) If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is !!!
I have attached an image of the 3 additional notes I was sent as part of this transaction for future reference:
{http://www.davgro.com/images/eBay/Osborne%20$50%203%20notes.jpg}
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thanks for the info. Did you happen to scan the backs of the notes? If so, could you post those, too?
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Image of the backs of the 3 x $50 1937 Osborne-Towers notes:
{http://www.davgro.com/images/eBay/Osborne%20$50%203%20notes%20back.jpg}
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The high bidders on the Gem Unc $50 1935 and the Choice Unc $50 1937 Osborne could provide further valuable service to Forum members by submitting a "condition report" after they have received their notes. Was the Gem Unc $50 1935 note really 100% flawless? Did the Choice Unc $50 1937 note have a few traces of handling?? -- presumably it did otherwise it too would have been graded as Gem rather than as Choice??
At the risk of sounding smug (really smug) I was pretty darn sure that the $50 1937 Osborne would show handling marks as it was only graded Choice Unc (not Gem Unc) by US standards. However, I certainly didn't expect the note to have been pressed as the auction description (the proverbial "old safe" discovery) suggested to me that it had been sitting in a safe for several decades, untouched since it was first issued.
The very sad ending of this story provides further confirmation, as if we needed any, that US grading standards are woefully different (i.e., much less strict) than Canadian and International grading standards. It's fine to send your Canadian notes to PMG and PCGS to have them graded according to accepted US grading standards but it's just not kosher to then use the Charlton catalogue for the same nominal grade to price those notes. The Charlton catalogue prices are based on CANADIAN grading standards and not on American (PMG/PCGS) standards! CAVEAT EMPTOR IN SPADES!!
I just wonder what the grade of those two $50 1935 "Gem Unc" notes turned out to be according to Canadian grading standards. Were they pressed too????
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Furthermore, would we have even known about the other three notes had they been properly graded? I doubt it. I think they were dragged out into the open just to make the point given above. OK, I get it, US standards are not the same as Canadian standards. Time to stop beating the dead horse.
On the contrary, this information was brought forward as a public service to other collectors who may have interest in purchasing these same notes in the future, should they appear in a public sale. Should one of these $50 notes appear in an upcoming eBay live auction, I will feel better knowing that our forum members can identify these notes by their unique serial number, and may think twice about accepting the stated grade. In the same way that you have pointed out in another topic that previously sold C&P auction material is appearing in their upcoming auction.
As a member of the law enforcement community I see fraud, and what borders on fraud, on a daily basis. The majority of these occurences are the result of the ignorance or naïveté of the victim, and could be avoided. It is for this reason that I regularly educate seniors and other members of the community of phishing, pharming and other faudulent electronic activity they may be exposed to.
Too many collectors have stories about their initial indoctrination into this hobby and purchases they regret making. Unfortunately the accepted dogma for this hobby is quickly becoming Caveat Emptor (Latin for “Buyer Beware”).
It is good to know that you have been educated to the fact the US grading standards and are not the same as Canadian standards, but there are new members joining daily who are not privy to this information. This forum would be best served as a venue to educate new members, and inform existing ones, as opposed to a platform for some members to hone their debating skills or create controversy.
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Hi Arthur,
Thanks for the info regarding these notes.Having the serial #'s does indeed do us a great service,the update is much appreciated.
I'm the type of collector that buys a lot of notes sight unseen,as time prohibits me from attending a lot of shows that are out of my home province.That 1937 $50 was particularly tempting,as was the 1935 $50,which I had bid a princely sum to aquire.Makes me kinda glad I lost,but concerned for the buyer.
Does he/she know how to grade properly,can they tell pressed or processed from original?
The individual that brought my interest to new levels in this hobby stated "Rob,when you sell a note,you can ask any price you like.But never over-grade a note intentionally,that is the kiss of death to your name".I belived it then,and believe it now. Have I overgraded a note?Some would say yes,intentionally,never!
Because this is not my livelihood,I sell notes when they have out lived their appeal to me,then I aquire new ones that interest me once again.Repeat cycle,lol.
My wife just bought another set of 1935 $2's from this seller at a price that by any standards would be considered generous.She has not paid for them to date,now I'm kinda concerned.
Which begs the question,would this have been the case(processed graded as Unc,Choice Unc,Gem) had these notes been graded by either an American service or a Canadian one?
Whatever the case,thanks for keeping us informed!
Regards,Robert
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Arthur,
I think its great that you are letting the forum know about the true condition of the notes posted. By the scans one would never suspect tampering. I guess this just proves how essential it is to visually inspect and smell the notes in person. You must have seen a lack of embossing , and other factors to reveal its true state. I would suspect that they could still command a pretty good price in the condition that they are albeit somewhat processed - worth perhaps a discount? I think it must be very difficult to find genuine (unpressed) notes for 35 and 37 though I've seen a few.
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Let's face it, "pressed" invariably means "WASHED & pressed" but we rarely see the dreaded "W" word in print. The word "pressed" is bad enough but "washed and pressed" is the kiss of death and I won't even touch "chemical smell".
I've attached a scan of two exceptional $5 1935 bills, both of which are basically Choice Unc with just the faintest whisper of teller handling at the right. The note at the top is 100% original with its wonderful original sheen, heavily embossed seal, signatures and serial numbers, and a wonderful microscopically "dimpled" three-dimensional surface that's hard to describe in words but easy to recognize in the flesh.
The note at the bottom has been washed and pressed and is literally as flat as a piece of glass with no three-dimensional "character" whatsoever, no embossing of the seal, signatures or serial numbers, and the seal, signatures and serial numbers have that dead giveaway shiny look when held up obliquely to the light. By itself, many people (even including myself) would have great trouble telling whether this note is pressed or not but when you compare the two notes side by side it's as clear as night and day. However, more to the point, they both look essentially perfect in a two-dimensional scan and that's the great danger when buying sight-unseen on eBay or, in fact, from any auction catalogue.
I hope the day will come when all eBay sellers and auctioneers will use the words "WASHED AND PRESSED" or "NEVER WASHED OR PRESSED" to describe their notes so that there is no doubt whatsoever. It's asking a lot though as "Washed & Pressed" means realizing a lot less money for your notes. Unfortunately, many entirely ethical sellers just don't have the knowledge and experience to recognize a washed and pressed note and that is a major problem, as revealed by the recent 1937 $50 Choice Unc Osborne "fiasco" on eBay.
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There are indeed a number of lessons to be learned from this "Case of the Osborne $50".
One is that a scan is just a scan and not in any way proof of grade. People selling notes offer by scan and buyers often request a scan. Close to a waste of time as this case shows. I use the analogy of buying a used car by photo or description only - a ROUGH idea at best and absolutely, certainly, assuredly, definitely ( etc...) NO SUBSTITUTE for seeing the item or note.
Whether TPG, US grading or Canadian grading, Lesson One applies. You gotta SEE it. There is no substitute.
US grading is typically more liberal but us Canucks cannot climb on an pedestal, believe me. There are some US dealers that are conservative, ecxcellent graders who specifically mention whether an injventory item is original or not.
Why is everyone so sure this is "US grading" ? Just because it was offered from a US address ? BIG assumption.
OleDon
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Whether TPG, US grading or Canadian grading, Lesson One applies. You gotta SEE it. There is no substitute.
OleDon
MOST importantly I believe, is knowing the sellers return policy. IMO.
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Whether TPG, US grading or Canadian grading, Lesson One applies. You gotta SEE it. There is no substitute. OleDon
MOST importantly I believe, is knowing the sellers return policy. IMO.
Yep, there's really no substitute for actually inspecting the item in the flesh. However, the Internet has spoiled us in a way. In the "old" days, not so long ago in fact, we would often buy rare notes from dealers' lists or from auction catalogues based on a short 5-10 word description and without any pictures whatsoever, and I guess we still do at times.
Without a doubt, you've either gotta SEE IT or KNOW THE SELLER'S GRADING STANDARDS AND RETURN POLICIES. Buying "blind" from unknown or relatively unknown sources on the Internet is certainly fraught with problems ..... especially at the $20,000 level :'(