CPM Forum
Special => Error Notes => Topic started by: suretteda on May 06, 2009, 10:49:42 am
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Banknote Blunder $10 & $20 Hybrid Note.
If a kid got a cash gift and found a banknote with $20 and $10 then she would feel so exciting.
It maybe a misprinted note.
Our viewer in Toronto got one of this misprinted note and worried about Bank of Canada may recall his bill.
These $10 bills look like no difference.
When these bills are under the light, one will display three $20 bill security features.
It displays the Queen Elizabeth watermark, $20 holographic stripe on the front and $20 security thread on the back.
Mr. Ng got this hybrid banknote from his daughter’s red packet.
He used different money detectors to check this note and verified that it’s a genuine banknote.
It displays the $10 bill UV colourful mark and the illuminated fibers.
The printing businessman, Mr. Tse said that the banknote was misused $20 raw paper sheet to be misprinted.
Mr. Ng might sell this note for auction.
Mr. Ng worried about Bank of Canada will recall his bill. Therefore he won’t contact Bank of Canada yet.
After a phone interview from us, Bank of Canada coordinator said that they won’t recall this note.
Mr. Perreria said that these printing blunders might happen very rarely. He’ll his best to stop it occurring again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQSNHJuCUBQ
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Where can I find the plate numbers?
The front position number is on the left hand side of the note at the bottom of the white/orange strip in the white or about 1/4" if you look from the bottom up.
The back position number is on the right hand side approximately 1/2 way up the note in the lighter little purple square block. Usually harder to see than the FP #
Hope this helps. Sorry I don't have a scanner to show you.
FRIEDSQUID
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Im sure that these error notes occured only on a handfull of notes. Perhaps towards the end of the BTT run and perhaps the very beginning of the BTU run. It'll be interesting to see the results.
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Wow, good work.
I think one of the main things for us to realize is that even if this gets isolated to be CONTAINED within a 40,000 + 5000 ream boundary, the actual number of notes will be restricted to the actual number of incorrect sheets used. So far the evidence points to NOT all 1000 sheets of the brick being the error sheets, but rather, only a SMALL segment within the numerical range. All of this might not matter, especially since there may only be like 5 known (I don't even know how many there are, but I know this is one huge gap in my collection!!).
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WOW Rag Picker, 73 reports, bring it on. I love large quantity of numbers :)
To everyone, your reports have been fantastic up to this point, please keep the numbers coming.
The Ottawa coin club has published the first half of my article on their website regarding the BTT & BTU notes, for those of you that do not get the CPMS newsletter,
http://www.ottawacoinclub.com/Hot_News.html
But they left out the important part that you should be cautious about paying alot of money for one of these notes if one comes your way, as the quantity available is an unknown at this time. (There is a great possibility that there are many out there).
Hudson is too smart for us, and I think his point has validity to some extend. But remember, this is just a hypothesis based on the notes that have been published in the article. The more notes that are being reported definitely helps to isolate the extent of the mess-up, and can/will lead to a more solid conclusion on what really happened.
I am planning a follow-up on the topic in the next CPMS newsletter, hopefully shedding some more light, as there may be more to this mystery then meets the eye.
In the mean time, keep the BTT & BTU #’s coming in, or if you have any question or comments, please send them my way.
elwoodbluesca@rogers.com
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ElwoodBlues is right - we truly don't know how many there are, or how they even are arranged at this time. :P It is still far to early to come up with any hard conclusions.
We simply neet to pour in the information about the BTU and BTT notes to get a more firm graps on the magnitude of the issue.
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Many have been asking for more information regarding these errors. At this point there is not much to give. I will be doing a follow-up to my article in the Sept CPMS Newsletter with the available information at that time.
This is what I can share. As of today, these are the known notes that are currently outlining the range where error notes have been found.
BTT 6587734 – Low End
BTU 2640370 – High End
Thank you to everyone who has contributed their numbers thus far, but keep them coming in
elwoodbluesca@rogers.com
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;)btt6593329 error
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6208/btt6593329front.th.jpg) (http://img338.imageshack.us/i/btt6593329front.jpg/)
(http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/2706/btt6593329back.th.jpg) (http://img169.imageshack.us/i/btt6593329back.jpg/)
BTT 9688688 – Low End
BTU 2640370 – High End
Would this make Whitetail_98's the new low end?
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Great Find, I have adjusted my original post.
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Can we start a registry for these notes?
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Can we start a registry for these notes?
Great idea
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Can we start a registry for these notes?
It's fine to suggest that, but who is going to maintain this ever-growing list of registers? I can't remember the last time I had someone ask me if they could be a Wiki Contributor. I would like to see more volunteers before we continue to expand the amount of work.
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Let's keep the numbers coming to elwoodblues...
I am not sure if an official registry is needed.
The purpose from this research at this stage is kind of to find out what the heck happened and "how" it happened.
By finding the notes on every side of the erros, it can help unravel the story.
Anyway, Elwoodblues, I have a big paper full of #s to send you. Via snail mail.
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The GPM22 catalogue lists these error notes and classifies them as BC-68a-E6-ii.
Journey $10 notes (BC-68a, prefixes BTT and BTU) have been discovered printed on paper intended for $20 notes, so they have the $20 hologram, shifting thread, and Queen Elizabeth II watermark - all elements present in the paper prior to printing. The quantity of such notes available to the hobby is not yet clear, so the value given is a cautious estimate, and may be higher or lower in future editions.
These errors are priced at $175 in Unc.
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Not sure if u know about this one ...currently on ebid
BTT 9715317
Has error
Does anyone have the EBAY item # Please
Thx
FRIEDSQUID
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Does anyone have the EBAY item # Please
Thx
FRIEDSQUID
It's not on ebay it's ebid.net
here is the link http://ca.ebid.net/perl/auction.cgi?auction=17649731&mo=auction
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Hey elwood...
Here's another one for sale on a more famous auction site....probably belongs to the person who found the original note or notes that started this whole episode.
BTU 2190161
Starting bid $1000......reserve not meet...so who's willing to bid it up to see what the reserve is???
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Do you know the auction #?
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320407569155
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Uncirculated notes :o let's hope we don't have a brick of them out there!
MG
Why not ??? Then we all can have one ;D
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Well it looks like he's now selling both his notes starting at $2000.
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I was just perusing eBay's Canadian banknotes and came across a Toronto seller who has just listed 2 consecutive BTU 10.00's printed on the 20.00 paper stock. He is looking for 2,000.00 and was just curious if any members think this price is within reason considering the rarity of these new "Error note" ???.
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They just increased the starting bid to $ 5,000.00. ???
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I don't understand why sellers of such notes don't let the market decide. ???
Even in less than ideal market conditions-- the error collectors should be the ones who (in putting hard cash where their mouth is) determine the estimated worth of such an error. Afterall, it's not as if there are a lot of desirable notes up for sale these days. Why should an online auction be started at some inflated starting bid when you don't even get a chance to view the said item? ::)
There has been mention of a possible brick or other such finds for the BTT/BTU $20 paper error. It occurs in 2 prefixes & others are beginning to surface. Unfortunately (like the fortunate few who had the 2003 BER hoard of notes) it seems as if such sellers are putting the horse before the cart in forcing the market value of such a rarity. They believe that dressing their sales up with all kinds of superlatives (such as "one of a kind!") will create a frenzy of buyers (& that all paper money collectors desire error notes!)
I believe most serious error collectors would prefer to have a "wait & see" approach or perhaps even dream that they will soon find such a rarity (an inside deal), before they would stomp all over the listing you mention. I may be wrong but I do believe most of us prefer to see a true auction style sale.
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First it was one note with a start of $1000.
Then it was two notes with a start of $2000.
Now it's two notes with a $5000. start and an unknown reserve.
Seems like this seller can't make up his mind.
Sounds just like the posts from back in April on the same items.
Other than finally providing us with all or some of the serial #s ....seems like a waist of our time.
Just my opinion
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The market will eventually decide.
I think there is a mania that he/she is trying to capitalize on.
Re: all these numbers being reported, this directly pertains to us realizing that they did not grab a full brick quantity.
I don't have the data so I have no comment at this time, but the data is important.
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The note had a bid for 5 000 C$ at the end of the auction, but the reserve hasn't been met...I'm wondering which price the seller had put for the reserve...? ???
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Personally i can't imagine someone paying that much for this note. I've seen a much cooler error note on an auction site.
i think the seller might be a little greedy, anybody know the saying:
Bulls run and pigs get slaughter!
Deficit
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The note had a bid for 5 000 C$ at the end of the auction, but the reserve hasn't been met...I'm wondering which price the seller had put for the reserve...? ???
was the bid from a newbie???
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on eBay, bidder identities are concealed, but the bidder only had a feedback rating of roughly 14.
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I know the bidder. He's just bidding on it because there's a reserve price set at something greater than $5,000 - with a "reserve not met" at $5,000, the bidder does not win the item anyways. He just wants to make the seller think it's worth so much, when in fact, $5,000 is WAY over the top. The seller is the guy who originally found that note at the casino and the person who reported it to the Asian media in Toronto.
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If the seller lowers the reserve to $5000, does the bidder have to reconfirm or does he automatically become a winning bidder?
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Auctions over. No sale. Notes would have to be re-listed and here we go again.... :o
I think it was a slow night in the printing room and someone grabbed some $20 paper and said "Hey, watch this....".... ;D
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If the seller lowers the reserve to $5000, does the bidder have to reconfirm or does he automatically become a winning bidder?
Once the seller states a reserve price when he submits his auction listing, the seller cannot change his reserve price while the auction is currently listed. The only way the seller can change their reserve price is to cancel the auction, and relist the item with a lower reserve price.
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That's not true. When you list an item as a BUY NOW with Reserve price and no one places a bid or offer, a seller can lower the price or lower the reserve price. I also remember that I was able to lower the Buy now and Reserve Prices, even if there was an offer price from the buyer. I don't recall if the seller can increase the Buy Now price when a buyer already placed an offer price. I will try to see if I can find the requirement from Ebay. Anyways, this is a Newbie with 0 feedback seller who is selling a $5000.00 error note. I don't want to risk my money and I may fear of not receiving the note.
Good Luck & Happy hunting.
Jarod
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Hi Jarod,
The seller's auction wasn't it a BUY IT NOW. It was a straight auction with a starting bid of $5,000 Canadian. If no one bids on the auction, the seller has the option to change his auction listings and reserve price (if applicable).
Once a bidder bids on an auction, nothing... including the reserve price can be changed. You can add more discription, but you can not modify the existing description, price, and end date of the listing.
Here's more info on the reserve price:
http://pages.ebay.ca/help/buy/reserve-price.html
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Hi Jarod,
The seller's auction wasn't it a BUY IT NOW. It was a straight auction with a starting bid of $5,000 Canadian. If no one bids on the auction, the seller has the option to change his auction listings and reserve price (if applicable).
Once a bidder bids on an auction, nothing... including the reserve price can be changed. You can add more discription, but you can not modify the existing description, price, and end date of the listing.
Here's more info on the reserve price:
http://pages.ebay.ca/help/buy/reserve-price.html
The reserve price can be lowered to meet the high bidder's bid. At least in the past I have seen this happen where a bid at a certain price did not meet the reserve and the seller lowered the price so the same bidder was the high bidder without rebidding with the reserve met at the same price. This was back in the days when all the bids with the identities were shown so it was easy to see if someone had rebid and if it was the same individual. In either event if someone place a token bid on something thinking they are not obligated, the reserve can always be lowered to execute their bid in which case then they are obligated theoretically.
You cannot raise the price though once a bid has been placed. Maybe that is what you are thinking of in terms of no changes. However, I have not followed this for a while so I do not know if the rules have changed.
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Deja Vu........
I will say they are good photo's showing the errors......
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The reserve price can be lowered to meet the high bidder's bid. At least in the past I have seen this happen where a bid at a certain price did not meet the reserve and the seller lowered the price so the same bidder was the high bidder without rebidding with the reserve met at the same price. This was back in the days when all the bids with the identities were shown so it was easy to see if someone had rebid and if it was the same individual. In either event if someone place a token bid on something thinking they are not obligated, the reserve can always be lowered to execute their bid in which case then they are obligated theoretically.
You cannot raise the price though once a bid has been placed. Maybe that is what you are thinking of in terms of no changes. However, I have not followed this for a while so I do not know if the rules have changed.
I've found the link which describes "Lowering Reserve Prices".
http://pages.ebay.ca/help/sell/lowering-reserve.html
It states:
You may lower the reserve price on an item in any category as many times as you like, as long as the reserve price has not been met and there are at least 12 hours left on the listing. When a reserve price has been lowered, all bidders are automatically notified by email.
If you lower the reserve below the high bidder's maximum bid, the high bidder's maximum bid will be lowered to $1.00 below the new reserve price. The new reserve price will be revealed to the high bidder by email. This lets high bidders confirm they are still interested in the item.
When you lower the reserve price eBay lowers the maximum (proxy) bid. When the maximum bid is lowered:
A bidder must bid again to meet the new reserve price.
eBay lowers the maximum (proxy) bid 1.00 below the new reserve price.
A bidder must bid again to confirm interest in the item because the high bidder may have bid on another item when that bidder did not initially meet the reserve price.
The high bidder is not bound to purchase the item; the high bidder must either bid again at or above the new reserve price.
(in any event, my buddy would have never have won the item, because had the seller lowered the reserve price to $5,000, my buddy's bid would be automatically changed by eBAy to $4,999 (still below the reserve price).
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I am just curious if anyone knows how many of these errors have now been found.
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I am just curious if anyone knows how many of these errors have now been found.
My suggestion of a registry was squashed so I really don't know :(
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I believe an article will be contributed for the Sept. issue of the CPMS Newsletter which will include the information you (and all of us) want.
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My suggestion of a registry was squashed so I really don't know :(
A register for these notes -- at this time -- would not make a whole lot of sense due to the nature of the error and the way notes are printed. They are not in a contiguous run of notes, but rather in several distinct runs of sheets. If you have one sheet of errors, that represents 45 distinct notes with numbers separated by 1000 or even more depending on where on the sheet the note is. Meanwhile, the adjacent sheets are normal, so you've got 45 error notes separated by 1000, with all shoulder notes being normal.
Right now, research is being conducted on this issue. Vast amounts of data are being collected to assist in this project. Not only is data on error notes being collected, but ALL BTT and BTU notes. You can see how a register would be thoroughly useless at this point as it would contain so much information. Restricting it to known error notes is also useless for any kind of research.
What I can say at this point is that there should be hundreds of these errors in circulation. Several have been found. While I do not know the exact number of known notes, I estimate it to be approximately two dozen.
Collectors should be advised not to spend vast amounts of money to acquire such notes. Resist the current hype and wait for things to settle down. We saw the same sort of thing with BEL and BER-2003 notes and I expect that is what will happen here too: a huge price bubble for the first bit, and then suddenly the prices fall back down to more realistic ranges once more notes emerge from the woodwork.
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Restricting it to known error notes is also useless for any kind of research.
Do you mean a registry of known notes would be only for research and not to provide members current up to date information ?
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That's not at all what I mean. I meant what I said. Restricting the register to only the known error notes (ie: excluding all non-error notes) would be useless for research purposes.
Either way, there is no public listing of known BTT/BTU error notes. Research is currently being conducted, and as Bob said above, there is an article on this subject anticipated for the September CPMS Newsletter. You will find more information when the newsletter is released (and no, I am not the author of said article, nor will I be publishing anything on the subject in the foreseeable future).
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I believe an article will be contributed for the Sept. issue of the CPMS Newsletter which will include the information you (and all of us) want.
Be nice to see a reprint of this article on the forum for those non CPMS members who are interested and or contributed to this project......this error has garnered a fair bit of interest even for those who don't collect errors....
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http://www.ottawacoinclub.com/Hot_News.html
woodguy62
- Here is the link to my article - there is a link "Full Details click here!
" at the bottom of the page that will take you to the full text article
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Elwoodbluesca
Thanks, dare I ask about BTU2190161, currently being auctioned with BTU2190162
as an error?
Thx
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dare I ask about BTU2190161, currently being auctioned with BTU2190162 as an error?
Now the pair is up to a 10K start bid.....where will it end :)
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Now the pair is up to a 10K start bid.....where will it end :)
It will end as soon as you meet that reserve.... ;D
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That's awesome. I found 10K in my closet this weekend and didn't know what to do with it until now!!! Those notes are mine!!! ;D
MG
I assume once you bid 10K he will relist the notes for 15k....better start looking in other closets ;D
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I have one for sale at only $2500 ;)
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I have merged all of the discussion posts on these errors into this thread. The original thread in the "Canadian Journey Series" forum is ONLY for posting new numbers of notes that you have found. All discussion should be carried out here. Thanks!
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a 10,000 bid and the reserve not met ??? ???
why the seller don't want to sell it for 10,000
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Thant's because this note is clearly worth 100K, come on everybody knows that!!! ;D
MG
is it worth a 100k thats a lot loll
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If someone wanted to inflate a price he could tell a friend the reserve and have him bid to the max under the reserve.
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All these shenanigans remind me of the Bank of Nova Scotia $5 1898 note that's been on eBay for at least a year priced at US$88,888.00 (why not $88,888.88 though??). A search for " $5 Doull " will capture it. Some people evidently get a rise out of "playing the fool" ...
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I am just curious if anyone knows how many of these errors have now been found.
YES.....I'm with Manada on this ;). To date I have only seen the 2 that were listed on eBay a while back. Does Jared - "Elwoodbluesca" happen to know of any more then those 2 ???.
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What I can say at this point is that there should be hundreds of these errors in circulation. Several have been found. While I do not know the exact number of known notes, I estimate it to be approximately two dozen.
nova7415: Please read the thread from the beginning. The question of how many notes are known has already been addressed. My post, quoted above, states that the number of known notes is approximately two dozen. One more was just reported today.
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nova
There is one currently on ebid. There is a link to ebid in this thread, I think.
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Now that great progress in researching the BTT/BTU double-denomination error notes has been made and reported in numismatic publications, I think it would be interesting to speculate on how the errors occurred.
The errors are thinly distributed throughout a range of nearly 10 million notes. The total number of possible error sheets has not been pinned down yet, but it's probably a small number, and I am inclined to think that all of the sheets were together in one stack at some point. In other words, all the error notes are the result of one big screw-up instead of the same error repeated coincidently several times on a smaller scale. So, if you go along with this premise, then we need to think of what caused the sheets to be separated into smaller groups. I can't fathom machinery being used to shuffle up hundreds of thousands of unprinted sheets of security paper. The point of doing that would also be lost on me. Given that BAI is absolutely cranking out paper money these days, it's probable that not all the banknote paper they receive is in perfect shape. A few damaged and/or defective sheets get replaced even before the printing stage. So an employee grabbed some unprinted $20 sheets by mistake, put them aside, and these sheets were slowly used up when replacement sheets were needed to make up a ream.
So the errors would be, in effect, a kind of replacement note if this hypothesis can hold water. Comments?
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If sheets are not numbered, what is the point in having any order to them? Why not just pull out rejected sheets without replacement, continuing on until there are X number of sheets in the stack?
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Without any kind of insight into how the printers handle their sheets, we just don't know how they keep track of stacks of unprinted sheets. Had the block of $20 sheets been introduced like any other stack of sheets, they would probably not have become so mixed up with the rest of the $10 sheets. In other words, the errors would be all within one ream of 40,000 notes. But they're not confined to one range. So far, we see a couple of reams where multiple errors have been identified, and a couple of outliers with one or two errors.
I'm not saying they replace unprinted sheets like inserts, i.e., literally inserting them in the place of defective sheets because there's no point to doing that. The sheets could be added to the end of a few stacks when there was a deficit of sheets in those stacks, and then the stacks get fed into the machines in an unordered way. Who knows. As far as I am concerned, the distribution of these errors over a large number of notes reminds me of replacements, and if it's just a coincidence, I can accept being wrong.
Maybe the mixing of the unprinted sheets occurred at the paper supplier's end? That's another possibility. In the end, it doesn't matter whether the errors are replacements or not. There's still a plausible chance that the error sheets came from one source and they were intact when they were in the hands of the printers who subsequently mixed them up as the result of one large oversight in quality control rather than several smaller episodes.
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Over the past few weeks, I've received hundreds of BTT/BTU notes. Going through thousands of circulated $10s in that time does not make that fact too surprising. What does is that on several occasions including today, I've received nothing but BTT/BTU notes.
I picked up 150 $10s today from a local bank. The full bundle had a green-edged Bank of Canada wrapper on it. All 150 notes were from the BTT and BTU prefixes, and of course none were errors. I think Kitchener may be a dumping ground for searched bundles of BTT and BTU!
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There was supposed to be an article written for CPMS in Sept. Maybe we could get a reprint here on the forum?
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If you would like to join the CPMS, you can read the newsletter on the CPMS website. Membership is only $30 per year.
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I only suggested a reprint because of the diligent efforts of forum members to collect BTT/BTU data.
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It would be up to the author whether or not he wishes to make his article available in venues other than the CPMS newsletter. Membership has its benefits.
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Here is a small portion of the article;
Join the CPMS and get the whole article, Absolutely FREE, with paid membership.
AN OUT-OF-SIGHT ERROR – PART II (Portions)
by Jared Stapleton
With all the attention the previous article received, it seems fitting to continue research and update eager followers of these error notes.
To date, the only prefixes known to be affected with this error are BTT and BTU, and 22 notes have been reported.
The Bank of Canada was kind enough to divulge a few details regarding these notes.
- The Bank declined to say what ranges of notes were affected by this error.
- The majority of notes reported from the Toronto and Vancouver regions.
- Acknowledged that these notes have been released into circulation, that this is a small isolated case occurring over a small quantity of notes
- Advised that the error notes are legal tender, and if you wish, you may contact the BoC to have your note exchanged for a non-error $10 note. (This would not be my recommendation to dispose of your notes!)
When looking at the data, there appears to be no pattern to the distribution of the error notes. They occur as clusters with a few solitary outliers scattered throughout a range of nearly 9.5 million $10 notes. Using some newly reported information on sheet layouts and numbering practices employed by BAI and reported in this issue of the CPMS Newsletter (pp. 75-78), it has been determined that the clusters of error notes fall within distinct reams. Twenty-one of the twenty-two reported error notes have position numbers that place these notes in the first eight rows of the 45/on layout. These twenty-one error notes occupy five reams.
Only time will tell how rare these notes are, but in the meantime, keep checking your notes, especially your tens. Your continued dedication to reporting serial numbers and position numbers of all BTT and BTU notes is appreciated. Please report your finds by email to elwoodbluesca@rogers.com or post your data on the Canadian Paper Money Forums at http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/forum/.
Acknowledgements
Mark Marschner, Brent W.J. Mackie and the ongoing support of all those people who contributed data.
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another one on ebay...320515037849
not sure if the serial # has been added to the list
I guess people can always dream that they found the holy grail :)
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another one on ebay...320515037849
not sure if the serial # has been added to the list
I guess people can always dream that they found the holy grail :)
Looks at the note... *drool*,..... looks at the price *un-drools* and walks away Hmph.... >:(
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Sorry to bring up again BTT/BTU errors
Its been a while since the first reporting of the BTT/BTU error, has there more notes found? What's the rarity of this note?
I'm still running into numerous amounts of these notes and thought I asked
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I'm still running into numerous amounts of these notes and thought I asked
Not clear on what you are saying....you are running into numerous amounts of BTT and BTU prefixes or BTT/BTU errors
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Not clear on what you are saying....you are running into numerous amounts of BTT and BTU prefixes or BTT/BTU errors
I was running into numerous amounts of non error BTT/BTU notes and rememebered about the error that occurred within these prefix.
So then I was curious about the amount of errors found, rarity and current value.
Hows that?
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I was running into numerous amounts of non error BTT/BTU notes and rememebered about the error that occurred within these prefix.
So then I was curious about the amount of errors found, rarity and current value.
Hows that?
Check the Wiki for list of reported ones. Of course that doesn't mean the ones found are the only ones that exist. Im sure there are ones that exist that haven't been reported. But at least you can have a general idea of the population size.
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You can also check the Serial Number Database for the number of notes that have been check for these prefix. A lot of people went through 10s looking for this error.
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Check the Wiki for list of reported ones.
Can you point an old man in the right direction....I never knew there was a list available of reported BTT/BTU errors?
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Oops my bad.... Somehow I recalled seeing one but I guess I was wrong :-[
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Oops my bad.... Somehow I recalled seeing one but I guess I was wrong :-[
Since we have registries for some of the mismatched serial numbers, it would be nice to have one for this error too :)
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I have one of these notes and am just curious if any have sold.
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I have one of these notes and am just curious if any have sold.
Yes a few have
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Since we have registries for some of the mismatched serial numbers, it would be nice to have one for this error too :)
http://wiki.cdnpapermoney.com/index.php?title=BC-68a_2005_BTT/BTU_$10_Error_Register (http://wiki.cdnpapermoney.com/index.php?title=BC-68a_2005_BTT/BTU_$10_Error_Register)