Specimen Notes

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

Hi,

I'm glad I found this forum. None of my friends or family are the least bit interested in my hobby. I've had the bug since I was a kid and it looks like I may have found some like minded people out there.

Anyways, I wanted to get some comment on specimen notes. I have managed to collect a few ever since I found out that they existed. I have window shopped some of the sales of 54 modifieds and devils that have come up on e-bay and I even bid on the modified set that was at the Hamilton auction this weekend.  (Needless to say, somebody walked away with that set and I think it would have been happier living with me.) I can't believe the prices. They are well over book value. It's not like I wouldn't spend some big money from time-to-time (as long as my wife doesn't know about it  ), but I hate to think I'm overpaying. I collect for the joy of it, but I'd like to think I could get my money back if I ever did re-sell in a couple of years. Do you guys think the prices being payed for these specimens are too much?

Thanks.

Hi Big Red

& welcome to the CPM forum.

That's a tough question you pose.  I for one, do not collect specimens or proofs because they're not issued stock. They're notes that are sold directly from BOC.  To me a note is more valuable when it is intended for circulation and then is UNC, or is a replacement, radar, or error.  

I believe the recent surge in specimen popularity comes from coin collectors who're crossing over into paper money (diversifying their hobby) and from the "hardcore" collector (many of which are on this forum).  Please don't ask me to define a "hardcore" collector-- they're the breed who will likely correct you if you have dropped a decimal point in the # of BOC notes issued, who will argue a note's condition (UNC or AU) all night, who'll seek every kind of prefix, or oddity in the world of paper money (etc).    

They're likely keen on specimens because they've got every other type of note in their collections. Coin collectors like the proof sets, (and such that were never issued for circulation)... thus proofs/specimens would appeal to them.   I think there is a broad market for specimens and they'll likely always perform (sell) well.  However, a specimen is likely to sell better where there is a broad market for them.  Never sell one to a dealer.  You will only get 70%.

Paper money collectors who like specimen sets like the row of 0's and the rarity of the set.  

The present popularity of specimen sets are due to their scarcity.  Individual specimen notes are more common, hence they're less likely to command the same outrageous bidding frenzy of the set at the TNS auction.    

Hold onto your specimens..they're likely to rise in value if the market continues to be this hot.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.  Hope it helps...

Welcome to our little world Big Red.

Read and enjoy this site as you will gain a whole lot of knowledge from quite a few great collectors here.

I am a huge fan of the specimen notes especially from 1954 and they are the prize of my collection. I enjoy showing them to others but I went in that direction after completing signatures. They were freshly out and a lot cheaper and 4 or 5 years ago when they were almost flooding the market with the bird and multicolor series.

If you bid on that set on Sunday you were one of only a few and with the hammer price and sales tax it sold for over $13,000 which is more than double and almost tripled the book value. Being that there are only 12 of these sets that would be the answer to why it went so high. You can find every once and a while the modified $2 and $5 on ebay but again because there are only 98 of those the price skyrockets again and one day I beleive that the pricing panel will make a correction between the 1954's and the Multicolors by just looking at numbers available.

My investments in specimen notes from a few years ago are now paying off big time but that's only one reason why I bought them. The other is that there are only 12 of these sets and quite rare. So the rarity of owning them makes me happier than the profit..........for now  

If you can get them at a good price, jump on them fast.

Welcome!

For a long time I did feel that specimens and proofs weren't "real" money. Then, as luck would have it, I came across front and back 1935 $500 proofs. Once I had them in my hands I was sold. These were beautiful works of art, chrisp and clear. You could see every little groove and line. Since this was a close as I figured I would ever get to a $500 note, I bought them. Later, I managed to purchase front and back proofs of the 1923 shinplaster. Although I had a complete collection of "real" shinplasters at the time, the proofs where "icing on the cake".

Unfortunately, hard times came knocking, and I've had to sell of all but the least valuable pieces in my collection (now more like a rag-tag collection of empty holders ), but those proofs still bring a special smile just thinking about them.

I say (for whatever it's worth), collect'em if your heart calls out. Investments are for stock market gurus. Paper Money is for everyone!  

Well said Paul.  

Hello Big Red and welcome to the forum! Personally, I have not had the privilege to grace my collection with any Specimen notes as of yet, but I do have a few more questions to add concerning the topic.

As you have all pointed out, the 1954's seem to be particularily hard to come by:

Being that there are only 12 of these sets that would be the answer to why it went so high.

In my 18th edition Charlton guide which I have here, it lists the "Quantity Sold -- Bank of Canada Sale" but I can't seem to find any mention of how many were printed or might exist in the hands of the Bank of Canada. I noticed one of these sets currently being listed appears to be the set#1035, if I am properly interpreting the CCGS tag (there is no picture provided of the back of the note where the set# would be printed).

So, my question is: is it possible the Bank of Canada holds as many as 1000 or more of these sets in its vaults? If so, what is the likelyhood that they will be selling off more of them in the future? With demand (and prices) skyrocketing, is there any reason to think that they would not be tempted to list a few more in the next public sale, whenever that should take place?

Perhaps I am totally off-base in my assumptions, but it seems to me to be a risky "investment" to spend 10k+ for these notes if there is any possibility of more of them entering the market and sending prices tumbling if there are too few serious collectors to sustain the current value.

Does anyone have information about future Bank of Canada sales or thoughts on what effect that may have on the market?  :-/

Thank you all for your knowledge and insight.

Alain

Hi Alain,

You raise a good point and as an owner of specimens from 1954 up to the Birds series, I'm curious about the answer too (obviously).

I've noticed Multicolour set numbers in the 900s even though there were only 620 or so of each note auctioned in 1999.

My guess is that there were more sets printed than indicated in Charlton's, but that not all of the notes that were printed were fit for sale in the auction.  After all, these notes were supposed to be printed for distribution to the banks so that tellers and other bank personnel could become familiar with each new series of banknotes, so I would assume that some of these notes would get "roughed up" by tellers etc.

However I'm not entirely sure that all series of specimen notes were printed for the purpose of training banking personnel, or if the BofC just printed them off for sale at the auction.  Is there anyone here who works in a bank who remembers seeing Birds specimens when that series first came out?  Have any banking people seen Journey specimens?  If specimens really are intended to train bankers, then there should have been Journey specimens in 2001 when the $10 note came out... :-/

I've noticed Multicolour set numbers in the 900s even though there were only 620 or so of each note auctioned in 1999.

Don't forget that matched low-numbered sets (below 0001000) were previously made available through the Canadian Paper Money Society to its members.  These sets included the $1 and $2, the denominations which were removed from the sets sold in the Bank of Canada auction, being obsolete and not issuable.

Oops - sorry - just noticed you were talking about SPECIMEN notes only.  Please ignore my last post.

Hi,

Thanks alot for your feedback. I got thinking about what was said about more specimen notes being offered by the Bank of Canada and hurting the values, so I decided to e-mail the Bank of Canada Currency Museum to ask about future specimen sales. Here is the reply I got today

"Dear        

The original auction of Bank of Canada low serial number notes (1969-79) and specimen notes (1935, 1937, 1965, 1967, and 1969-79), to which you no doubt refer, took place on November 13, 1999 under the direction of Moore Numismatics Auctions.  At that time, the Bank issued a statement regarding the bank notes in question.
 
Quote (bold added):
 
"The Bank of Canada is offering in this auction its entire inventory of 1969-79 low serial number notes and specimen notes from the 1935, 1937, 1965, 1967 and 1969-79 bank note series, with two exceptions. First, the National Currency Collection housed in the Bank of Canada's Currency Museum contains examples of all notes of these series. Secondly, the Bank will retain a small number of sets for operational purposes related to the verification of mutilated claims, but attests that these notes will not be made available for sale any time in the future."
 
The above quoted statement holds true today.  I hope this information will be helpful to you.
 
John Inca Anderson
Currency Museum - Musée de la monnaie
Bank of Canada - Banque du Canada
tel  613.782.7821
fax 613.782.7761"

Seems to me based on the information provided that the auction in 1999 was and will be the only time that the Specimen notes would be made available to the general public.   I believe that the bank will keep the existing notes in their possession for reference purposes only.