UNC 1935-37 notes.

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My broker called me last month to tell me a client of his was closing his account and clearing out his safety deposit box and he had some paper money to sell if I was interested. My broker knows I like collecting paper money and told my his client had a bunch of mint 1935 notes, mostly 50s and 100s, also had a  lot of 1937 50s-100s all unc and some 1974 $2 test notes all unc, consecutive serial. And he had some gold coins too. The guy who had all this paper money was getting on in age and wanted to sell them to somebody who appreciated paper money because if he gave it to his kids, they just blow it all, probably at face value. Anyway, I kept asking my broker that I'd like to take a look at the bills and set up a meeting. But nothing happened and then he told me a guy from Winnipeg was coming in to look at the collection, a dealer of other bigtime collector. So what happened basically was, I never got to see the bills and the dealer from Winnipeg basicaly bought him all out of everything, well because he had a lot of rare notes in UNC condition plus mostly 1935 series. So, I was kind of upset that I never got a chance to even look at his collection, I would have liked to buy a couple of notes. Also the dealer gave him a fraction of what it was worth, like 25-30% book value. I think he got ripped off. But oh well.

In my books, that sounds like fraud on the dealers part.  I am sure if he had bought them at such a low price, he/she plans to sell them above book, lets wait and see.  I think that atleast CAND should be told of this if you can gett the dealers name.  What a total disrespect for the prior owner of these notes, keeping them for all this time then the dealer reeping all the rewards for this.  If I ever find out who the dealer was, I would love to give him a blast.  

Tom

I can empathize with your thoughts Tom. However we are getting the news third hand without further validation.
Anything is possible, yet I would hope a seller would shop around their collection in obtaining the best price.
IMVHO,
doug

Capitalism is not fraud.

Though agreed to some extent, it is also unethical to rip unsuspecting individuals in order to reap the capital which were attributed to these rare notes. As the old adage goes treat people as you would like to be treated.  It is true that the seller might not be as educated as he could be but that does not mean that one has the right to take complete advantage of that.

There is nothing wrong with turning a profit but not to the extent of only offering 10-15% of the actual market value. A more suitable percentage should be used closer to the 60-90% range. Thus allowing both parties to profit.

This whole story could be a fairy tale. No facts, no documentation, no proof that any of this actually happened. No dealer mentioned by name, which might have saved legal action. As is too often the case, unknown dealer gets slammed regardless of any actual facts. Speculation on unseen notes, unknown grades makes this whole story seem unknown.

Rick

I don't know if the story is 100% true because I just heard it from my broker, I never did get to see the notes and I only repeated the story my broker told me. Also he got 25-30% book value, not 10-15%. My broker said the guy sold the 1935 $50s for about $2,500-3,000 each, but he should have gotten at least $7,000. But on the other hand if the guy originally paid $50 when he put them away and is getting $2,500, he might think that's a good deal. Also a lot of older people who sell their collections have no idea what the notes are really worth. Some will just cash them in at the bank for face value, like that lady a few years back who turned in a couple of 1935 $1000s at the bank for face! Also a lot of older people don't happen to have a Charlton guide to CDN Paper money to see what the true value is. So when somebody says, "hey I'll pay you x amount" alot of people sell, just happy to get anything above face. So, I'm only passing on information I heard from my broker, maybe it's true, maybe it's made up. But I never did actually see the notes or talk to the guy who had them, so I'm just going on what my broker said. I'm just upset I never got to see the notes. But I never said I was entitled to them. I just thought it was odd my broker would call me up, ask if I'm interested in them, I say yes and never get to met the guy who was selling, and before you know it, he had some arangement with some guy from Winnipeg to come out to look at them. So I kind of got left out of the equation. But it's his notes, he had the right to sell them to anybody he wanted to. So that's the story.

RE: a bad dealer experience

I bought 2 AU Devil's faces from a major dealer in Winnipeg for BV+ because I thought they looked so good in the scans.  When I got them I was suprised to find permanent thick black magic maker and graffiti over the enitire bank note holders (for each note) so you could only view a 1/4 of the note.  

When I buy more than 1 note I only expect one note holder.  I was surprised that there were 2 but even more surprised at this outlandish "Defacing" of a holder which was created to protect a note, and allow the collector to view the note without touching the item.  I was just baffled at the reasons why anyone would deface a holder to such an extent.

When I asked the dealer (in question) why he marked up the holders he said it was for "inventory." Now keep in mind this isn't a sticker or something you could remove if you wanted to.  The holders were destroyed (the weird symbols/ markings were over the entire note holder) and I had to throw them out.  

When i asked him if he could send me 2 clean note holders he replied "you bought the notes -- not the holders!"  I was surprised/disgusted with his attitude and told him that most dealers wouldn't sell a book with a marked up book cover, (a car with a scratched up paint job), or a CD with graffitti on it, but he wrote back to inform me that he was the "biggest dealer on eBay" and threatened me not to leave -ve feedback or face dire consequences.   He also wrote that all of us "stamp collectors" were the same (petty whiners over our paper holders)!  I just wondered what he was smoking!

Well it just so happens that I won a bid on another note which he had up for auction. NO I WASN'T SMOKING UP!  (I bid on it BEFORE I discoverd the messed up DF note holders-- so I was forced to deal with him again).  The DF's were disappointing-- as it was-- so I wasn't really keen on buying more notes from this obnoxious seller-- but bit my lip and tried to complete the transaction.  I had to phone through his separate check out & when I tried to pay for the new item he called me a "cheap son of a %$&* who complained about a couple 15 cent holders!" and many more abuses.  Even though I was trying to pay him nicely (through credit card) for another one of his pricey products, he continued to swear at me, screaming at me, and hung up on me!  Honestly, I was shocked because I kept my cool and tried to talk to him in a rational manner-- but he was hysterical!  This is a major dealer from Winnipeg who has high negative feedbacks and has since gone on to form his own oline auction service.    

I gave him -ve feedback and he went back and changed all the +'ve feedback he gave me to negative.  He wrote things like "this guy's a pain in the @@s!" and other very derogatory remarks.  He even had the nerve to tell me I was "banned" from his store (as if his business was the hottest coin shop in the country!)

Then 6 months later he filed a complaint through eBay for an unpaid item! (I didn't receive the next item because he hung up on me when I tried to pay him) He did everything in his power to get back at me for complaining about a couple of stupid marked up note holders.

I've only had 1 rotten experience and it came from this dealer in Winnipeg. I have followed all the news about him since that experience, and have discoverd that he's made many purchases that are at a small fraction of BV.  When I read the post above-- I thought of him immediately.

I guess he's happy !

Don't worry Rick I know most dealers aren't like this!

First of all, ebay and buying notes from an inexperienced individual are completely different. Might as well be comparing apples and oranges. On ebay a seller has a choice on having a reserve, in addition the consumers decide on the 'fair market' price for the particular item. Thus making the auction as fair as possible. On several occasions a note goes for 50% below book or 50% above which just means that is what the note is worth. Whereas buying from a novice, and offering a small percentage of the actual value is nothing more than a scam, just to make a sleazy profit. Yes, a dealer does buy their notes at a fraction of the value - as do I - but not at the complete expense of the seller, once again offering a small portion of the notes true value. Honest dealers do not rip individuals off and try and convince someone that a $2 test note is just a common note with little to no value. Then buying that note for $10 and selling it for $900.

Hopefully the thread is not closed, I am not upset rather I am just having a simple debate - keeps the mind young and sharp.  

There seems to be a heavy bias against dealers in this forum and among collectors in general

First off: I've been watching this forum for 2 years and I haven't seen this at all.  I've never seen RS imply there is such a bias either. Maybe a few odd newbies come on here for a rant but we know where thats coming from.

In this particular thread I am simply illustrating a bad experience I had (after 30 years of collecting).  It wasn't just about the note holder-- it was about how the issue blew right out of hand.  

Being both a buyer and a seller, I can see the issue from both sides, and I usually come down on the side of sellers.

That's where I would typically stand too.  As I said before this was the only ONE NEGATIVE experience I've had with 1 dealer.  

I can sympathize with sellers because I know there's a lot of fussy, and hard to please buyers out there.  Nevertheless, when 2 notes are sold a bit above book, and you are operating a business-- you'd just expect customer service to be a bit of a priority for an established dealer. Its all I expected -- and what I got was marked up holders, verbal abuse, and threats.  On top of this: I eventually had to change my eBay ID because after that experience-- some individual kept trying to hack into my account.  

I've been both a buyer and seller for the last 2 years -- and quite frankly I would never treat someone the way this person treated me even if I came across as a bit of a "pest."  As far as I'm concerned its his loss-- I've spent a great deal on notes -- and none of it has gone his way since.  Plus word gets around. I was not surprised to see his -ve feedback increase during that time, as well as see the same notes put up for auction week after week.

Since this incident occured- I have had a slight change of heart in recognizing that we both carried the situation too far and it got out of hand.  I feel bad for that.. and was ready to apologize & complete the 2nd transaction when he started swearing at me on the phone.  If this was the only transaction -- it would still be unforgivable.  However I had bought other items from him before when he behaved civilly and provided satisfactory service.

you bought a note, not a note and a holder

Are you serious?  If I bought a lot of common circulated notes SURE I can see this. Previously he supplied me with unmarked normal holders.  Why all of a sudden I get garbage holders? If its due to inventory-- then its a policy that needs to be changed (use stickers like the rest of us do). Simple really!

However, the two notes were bought on separate bids/auctions. As I said I can accept one holder (for 2 notes), but remember this person has charged me twice for S/H on each transaction (which adds up), tax, and then marks up each holder so the note can't be seen in either one (delivered in one packet).   Ok-- no problem but then when I see the note holders all marked up with circles, "DEVILS FACE" scrawled across like a 4 year old's writing, 15 numbers, symbols and check marks I was really put back.  If a seller thinks this is good selling practice (excellent customer relations) than I dare him/her to display the note like that on the online auction and see how many people bid for it.  Do it at a bourse (at a show) and see how many collectors are impressed with the item's artwork!

I have bought several notes from collectors and dealers and have received them in the manner you describe without complaint.  On high grades-- I do expect that there be some hard material to protect them from being bent.  

I also agree that there are some great dealers in Winnipeg.  As I said earlier the post wasn't meant to bash any particular dealer.  I just described one negative experience I had.  I intuitively felt that it could have been that dealer but it was pure speculation/ conjecture of course.  

I don't support unethical practices for dealers/sellers or collectors.  It only gives us a bad name. I am more inclined to agree with Tom, Oli, and others here who've admonished such exploitation.  Its one thing to speculate, or have info which suggests a note will sky rocket in value, & get it at a low cost.  Its quite another to get UNC 35's and pay 1/3 book value.  I have never bought any item on the side and flipped it for a large profit.

A person, not necessarily a collector, CAN set aside notes with high value without knowing the value. I've seen it time and time over again. Also, a collector would know the value and would not sell to a dealer for a fraction of the price. Whereas an individual, not knowing the value of the particular note, would sell to a dealer at a fraction of the price - simply because they do not know the value of the note. I have seen many of my co workers and friends who set aside some 1986 $2 AU* notes in unc condition thinking that they are only worth $4-5. That doesn't mean I have to buy them from them for $10 and then sell them for $120. I feel that you have to be fair - tell them what it is worth and then make an offer, if they disagree then no deal is made.

If its hard to make a living selling old notes stop selling old notes. Simple as that. If the business is getting tough it by no way means rip some suspecting individual off so that you can pay your rent.

I also agree with Walktothewater. When you purchase a note you expect it to be presented properly. Though it is a bit of a hastle for the seller afterwards, the should have thought of that in the first place.