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Topic: BABN $10s  (Read 10635 times)
Hudson A B
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« on: May 02, 2007, 07:52:24 pm »

Hi, this is a condensed repost of info I took off because GP's list was not in line with it when I spoke to him at initial posting date about amonth ago.

HE HAS SINCE MADE THE CHANGE to his list, to comply with the FACTUAL layout and printing of the $10 sheets. This was after further review of
a) the data I sent him, and
b) reviewing his data and note stock.
(This applies to BEY, which I will post about in the appropriate place).

NOTE:  THE LIST HAS BEEN MAILED OUT WITHOUT THE CORRECTIONS.  THIS IS BEING DEALT WITH AS I TYPE.

Gilles has given the "OKAY" for me to go on with this, despite this situation.


A condensed version of the original post is as follows:
**************

BEY3.5M (ish) (Update: Starting from ream 2 of BEY 2005: 2580000)
right through to  the end of BEZ are compliant with the discovered BABN "Standard Matrix" (shown in BlackBoxMystery-01)

At first look, I didn't take into account the changeover point, which actually staggers the notes out of line by 20,000.   If this was ignored, then the 21st position of the BABN $5 Standard Matrix would have been the FIRST position of the BABN $10 Matrix. Update: We know this proposition has been logicallyrules out from what we know about the Standard Matrix.  But to continue with that pattern, you would have seen that
BABN $5 row "A" became the BABN $10 row "E"
BABN $5 row "B" became the BABN $10 row "F"
BABN $5 row "C" became the BABN $10 row "G"
BABN $5 row "D" became the BABN $10 row "H"
BABN $5 row "E" became the BABN $10 row "A"
BABN $5 row "F" became the BABN $10 row "B"
BABN $5 row "G" became the BABN $10 row "C"
BABN $5 row "H" became the BABN $10 row "D"

This is what I Suspected (at first)...
The residual Miniature Matrix (5 notes per sheet) still exists (evidence shows this)...

The big question is this: how on earth could this be if the mini-matrix is sheared off the bottom?  
The pattern in the BABN $5s showed that the mini-matrix came off either the top or the bottom of the sheet.  One row- sheared right off.  However, if the tens actually are the way I describe above (Update: We know they are not), then this mini-ream cannot work.  There is a staggering by 20,000, putting the row "G" somewhere in MID MATRIX, which means that the next row could not possibly be sheared off, because it is MID SHEET.  So this confirms that the above row inversion theory is logically impossible. (Update: This conclusion also supported by collected note data)

UPDATE: Ream 2 of BEY 2005 confirms a 20,00 staggering from typical ream starting position, therefore confirming the "Standard Matrix" as showin in BlackBoxMystery-01.   Thank Goodness!


[size=18]Here is the exciting part[/size]-  when they are shearing off the residual row of 5 notes, we do not know how long they store them before they print on them.  The residual FP and BP combinations are:
70/70
96/84
85/90
68/63
74/56
I have NOT found ANY of these combinations in BEY 2005 as of yet.
If in fact they do not exist (printed), then that means:
They are were set aside until later - already when printing the next prefix.
If you find any of these combinations in BEY 2005, I would suggest keeping them - at least for now.
UPDATE:  One member has found 3 samples, all from different areas of BEY 2005.


As described, the mini-reams have been found in large clusters so far.  At this time, I am conducting a rather large study (involving 1500 "Standard" reams over 6 prefixes) to determine the placement or absence of these mini reams in a prefix.  UPDATE: I am going to need help with this part of the study

For example, suppose it was found that only ONE group of eight Mini-reams went through on a prefix. This would be the minimum.  
IF that was the case, then you would have in one prefix, only
8000 notes that are 70/70
8000 notes that are 96/84
8000 notes that are 85/90
8000 notes that are 68/73
8000 notes that are 74/56

Those ranges are smaller than any sheet replacement range by 80%.
These would be very hard to get because instead of being able to find some in every brick, like the case with a sheet replacement, there would be only a small number of bricks at all with these notes.  These notes would not be found in any other brick, and if they were found by a brick hunter in a full brick, they would have to be recognized and saved by the searcher - however, the significance of the notes would not be understood until nearly the entire prefix is mapped out.

Back to the layout of the sheets... the BABN $10 layout holds true from BEY 2005 (Ream 2) right up to the ream containing
BEZ 9755438 81/66 -- showing up in the correct position.
The last note in this ream of 40,000 would be BEZ 9,779,999

Following that, the next recorded not in sequential order is:
BEZ 9820654 70/70 (part of a Mini-ream). Note how this is A1.
Since these mini reams are suspect to be in groups of 8, the grouping totals 40,000 notes.

The ream prior to this one above, is unnacounted for:
BEZ 9,780,000 - 9,819,999 (40,000)

According to the notes recorded, the next printing groups are groupings of 8 mini-reams placed together. BEZ:
9,820,000 - 9,859,999 
9,860,000 - 9,899,999
9,900,000 - 9,939,999
9,940,000 - 9,979,999

However,9,980,000 - 9,999,999 is a section of 20,000 notes. (And has no samples found).

This particular run could be:
a) not printed
b) printed on Mini-reams, 4 rows by 1000 skip
c) regular group of notes, skip-500.
In any case, it changes nothing.

But speaking to the notes prior, you can see,
BEZ 9820654 70/70
BEZ 9823662 68/63
BEZ 9836125 96/84
BEZ 9869291 74/56
BEZ 9895056 70/70
are notes from these mini-reams, and they fit perfectly according to the printing process described.



The 20,000 staggering at the start of the ream is not evident in BTA onwards, making it much easier (in fact exactly EXACTLY) like the Standard Matrix from BlackBoxMystery-01, with position A1 starting at serial number 0000000.

Stepping back: One more proof that the Mini-Ream is shaved off the bottom of the sheet.
BEU:
Ream 1:
Skip-5000, all 45 positions used.  The numbers of this ream in combination with the pattern of numbers from the first few positions of the next ream prove that the mini-reams are in fact from the bottom of the sheet. 

Ream 2:
So far evidence of skip 25,000 for some parts of a single ream, notes skipped, and skip-changing, all in one ream.
To end it there, the BEU to the end of 2004 BEY are very different.  Not getting into detail at this time.

However, sharing two prefixes on one sheet hasbeen done before:
BEW 9997718 85/90
BEY 0000147 85/90
Even though they are from different sheets, you know that positions prior to 85/90 on the sheet with BEY 0000147 would show a BEW prefix, because of the skip numbering.

Here is what I firmly believe is happening... from my data and research. (for BABN notes)
1) BABN replacements prior to the current skip-1000 pattern (Ream 2 of BEY 2005 and forward) are single note replacements (as opposed to sheet replacements).
2) All BABN notes are converging to the skip-1000 pattern on the Standard Matrix I discovered with the BABN $5s. The $10s in BEY Ream 2 of BEY (2580000), the $20s in ALB 2-4M range, and $50s and $100s, not sure exactly....... Each denom having finds from their respective "mini-reams" as well.  THIS IS THE LASTEST REPORT BEING SENT TO GILLES.


« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 10:40:40 am by Hudson A B »

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Hudson A B
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2007, 07:54:59 pm »

Continuation of original post....

Hi All.
Okay: Established:  Ream 1 of the Upgraded $10s (BEU) and the transition into Ream 2 provide the data to ESTABLISH that the BABN Sheet position number combinations are as described in BlackBoxMystery-01.

That is, at the start of BEU they all follow the "Standard Martrix" AND have the Mini-matrix attached as the BOTTOM row.  That makes for 45/on sheets.
Ream 1 is skip-5000, as described above.
Ream 2 I am not sure. After sampling over 1000 notes, there is evidence of skipping at 20,000, but also 25,000 - all within one sheet. Almost a variance from row to row.  
Conclusion: The only possible way for this to occur is if NOT ALL serial numbers were used, between the first note of A1 and the last note of I5.
Why: For example, the first two rows exhibited a skip-25,000 pattern.  The next two rows exhibited a skip-20,000 pattern (etc...) Since notes come in sheets, we know that a solid smooth consecutive series of numbers encompassing the ENTIRE ream cannot be possible.  If row 3 and 4 were only 20,000, then that leaves a residual of 5000 notes x 5 positions in each row that are either
a) simply not printed atthat time (tumblers deactivated), or
b) tumblers set to different non-related serial numbers (possibly further on in the prefix.  We will not know exactly.  What we DO know exactly is that the skip numbering is 20,000 (aside from Ream 1) or a greater amount.
That is, at a minimum, there are 20,000 notes at one position before the skip to the next position, in regards to serial numbering.

Quick note: I have not discovered any method to where the notes ommitted actually are in the ream.  In order to know exactly, we would need to have every since note recorded = impossible. The important thing is to understand that these 45/on reams bayond Ream 1 cannot be all consecutive numbers.
(Could this be a reason why many bricks were found with MANY notes missing and no replacements?) Had we the info on the sister bricks (containing the notes from the same sheets), then we would know for sure.

Okay- bottom line:  BEU ream #2 is like this, but how far back did it continue before the switch to the 40/on and 5/on Matricies, exactly like the BABN $5s?
Update: This is known now, at exactly BEY 2580000 (Ream 2 of BEY 2005).

BT_ notes
BTF back all the way to BTA is perfectly consistent with the "Standard Matrix" 40/on.
Here are some BTA that have been recorded.
BTA 0002183 88/67
BTA 0003127 66/81
BTA 0004473 60/94
BTA 0033082 91/82
BTA 0040621 55/76
BTA 0041313 58/78....see PERFECT alignment to the Standard Matrix.


What this means for REPLACEMENT NOTES:
1) ALL BEY 2005 (less the first ream) are 40/on. ALL evidence supports this.
Update: This has been Recognized by Gilles, see other posts.
2) Miniature reams (like in the BABN $5 article) are present.
3) ALL BEY SHEET REPLACEMENT ranges: If they are sheet replacements, then ranges are 40,000, JUST like the BABN $5s.
If they are single note replacements, then the ranges could be as small as 100 or so.

Much like how the BABN $5s were originally thought to be 45/on (thus 45,000 ranges, so too were the tens.  However, as I have pointed out, for BABN $10s:
Starting at Ream 1: They are 40/on.
Starting at Ream 2: They are 40/on and skip 1000.

I can provide there recorded evidence to anyone who asks.

Other denominations:
By a similar process, I have poinpointed the same transition from large skip patterns to the "Standard" matrix for $20s at arounf ALB 2M to 4M, and also in the $100s.  The $50s I have not recorded enough data to determine any particular point.


Update:  A member has found a few areas of miniature reams of notes in BEY.  Perhaps those ranges did not reach Edmonton for release. 

Double update:
Upon lengthy lengthy discussion and with a data sheet of over 1000 logged notes in this particular area of focus, plus reviewing his own stock, Gilles has aligned his replacements ranges to properly match the reams.  GP has given me permission to release this data as of 3:10 PM Edmonton time, May 02, 2007. 

That means, the Replacement ranges that Gilles is stating ARE the exact size of the ream.  This means they correspond to the Standard Matrix I built in BlackBokMystery-01. And, since these (BEY) are sheet replacements, then the ranges are factually correct to be equal to the size of the ream (40,000).
THUS the reason for his change of BEY 2005 replacement ranges from 45,000 to 40,000 muliples as data supports.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 10:54:33 am by Hudson A B »

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Hudson A B
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2007, 07:55:23 pm »

.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 10:54:58 am by Hudson A B »

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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2007, 09:48:36 pm »

Concluding facts for BABN $10s 2005 and forward.

BOC confirmed start of $10 2005 to be
BEY 2,576,000

Here is the breakdown:

Ream 1:
2576000- 2580000
4,000 notes.  This is a ream anomaly.

Ream 2:
2580000- 2620000 Regular Issue

Ream 3:
2620000- 2660000 Regular Issue

Ream 4:
2660000- 2700000 Replacements


Ream 5:
2700000- 2740000 Replacements


Ream 6:
2740000- 2780000 Regular Issue

Ream 7:
2780000- 2820000 Regular Issue

Ream 8:
2820000- 2860000 Regular Issue

Ream 9:
2860000- 2900000 Replacements


Ream 10:
2900000- 2940000 Replacements


Ream 11:
2940000- 2980000 Replacements


Ream 12:
2980000- 3020000 Regular Issue

Ream 13:
3020000- 3060000 Regular Issue

Ream 14:
3060000- 3100000 Regular Issue

Ream 15:
3100000- 3140000 Regular Issue

Ream 16:
3140000- 3180000 Regular Issue

Ream 17:
3180000- 3220000 Regular Issue

Ream 18:
3220000- 3260000 Regular Issue

Ream 19:
3260000- 3300000 Regular Issue

Ream 20:
3300000- 3340000 Regular Issue

Ream 21:
3340000- 3380000 Regular Issue

Ream 22:
3380000- 3420000 Regular Issue

Ream 23:
3420000- 3460000 Regular Issue

Ream 24:
3460000- 3500000 Replacements


Ream 25:
3500000- 3540000 Replacements


Ream 26:
3540000- 3580000 Replacements


Ream 27:
3580000- 3620000 Regular Issue

Ream 28:
3620000- 3660000 Replacements


Ream 29:
3660000- 3700000 Replacements


Ream 30:
3700000- 3740000 Regular Issue

Reams 30 and onwards to the remainder of BEY are regular issue.


Here is an interesting thing:  These BEY replacements were found over 75,000,000 notes approximately.  A total of 400,000 replacements were spread over those 75,000,000 notes.
That means a spoilage rate of less than 1/2 %. 
I have no idea how many there arein UNC, but I know I have never found any, and I do many many $10s.


Approaching the last few reams of BEY:

Ream 183:
9900000- 9940000

Ream 184:
9940000- 9980000

This next one is very cool.
Ream 185:
BEY 998000 through BEZ 0020000 Are from ONE ream.

Meaning:  There are/were 1000 sheets that contained both prefixes.
Positions A1-5 through D1-5 were BEY
Positions E1-5 through H1-5 were BEZ
The following two notes can be placed onto the Standard Matrix as proof of this:
BEY 9999815 57/69 (D5)
BEZ 0002339 72/61 (E3)



The first sole- BEZ ream starts at 0020000.  I will name this ream BEZ 1 (even though BEZ has already been in part of a ream)

Ream "BEZ 1":
0020000- 0060000

Ream 2:
0060000- 0100000

Ream 3:
0100000- 0140000.

This pattern continues right through BEZ.

The last few reams of BEZ are as follows:

Ream BEZ 248:
9900000- 9940000

Ream BEZ 249:
9940000- 9980000

THE LAST 20,000 notes of BEZ are unaccounted for.
a) Could have been ommitted completely
b) Could have had skip numbering adjusted to skip-500, to makeacomplete 20,000 ream.
REGARDLESS of what the case is, it changes nothing.

BT_
BTA begins fresh at the proper A1 position at serial number 0000000.

Ream BTA 1:
0000000- 0040000

Ream BTA 2:
0040000- 0080000

Ream BTA 3:
0080000- 0120000

And this pattern continues right up until the last seen Journey tens at this time.  BTF xxxxxxx.


If anyone can find a note from BEY Ream 2 through BTF inclusive that does not comply with a 40/on matrix, or the mini matrices,
I will send you $100 by EMT.

That is my challenge to you.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2007, 04:31:02 am by Hudson A B »

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Roberto
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2007, 11:03:44 pm »

BEY 3804025  FP92 BP 87
Hudson A B
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2007, 11:12:05 pm »

Ream 28:
3700000- 3740000

Ream 29:
3740000- 3780000

Ream 30:
3780000- 3820000
Okay so this note BEY 3804025  FP92 BP 87 is in the 30th 2005 BEY ream.

A1: 3780000- 3780999
C1: 3790000- 3790999
E1: 3800000- 3800999

E2: 3801000- 3801999
E3: 3802 ....
E4: 3803 ....
E5: 3804000- 3804999

Roberto, your note falls into position E5.  E5 is 92/87 in the Standard Matrix.

Refer to the Matrix at this link to see that it is in fact in perfect alignment for the matrix.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/collectorsgallery/BlackBoxMystery-01.htm
(Go right near the bottom)

Sorry, no $100 for you.



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Roberto
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« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2007, 02:10:31 am »

Hudson

With the matrix , the BEY 4707XXX  the plat is fp 73 bp 62  or  fp85  bp 90

A1 4700000
B1 4705000    B2 4706000   B3  4707000

« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 02:18:51 am by Roberto »
Hudson A B
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« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2007, 10:57:40 am »

Correct.  The starting point is reading the numbersfrom the bill itself though. But it would be one of those.

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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2007, 01:18:48 am »

Hey Hudson... Great work!  You've done a huge amount of research which is good for all of us! Way to go!

Can you shed any light on the BEY 2004?  I found a BEY 1221121 while the old Journeys were still kicking about in August 2004, and it took me about 4 months (Jan 05)  before I found another 2004 BEY.  Although I was looking out for them, they seemed to be really sporadic in their release.  Any ideas what happened in terms of their release, how they were printed, etc? They seem to have a very irregular release.

Hudson A B
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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2007, 11:49:15 am »

Hi, thank you wtw,

Okay the BEY 2004: When I was going through literally 1000s of $10s... I managed to find a good number of BEY 2004s.  It could be like a regional thing.  I think they were all released, and with a changeover at a 2.5 million (approx) it makes them a little more special.  I don't know what UNC prices would be for those though.

They were printed with a very largeskip numbering pattern, I have found samples that were upwards of 21000 apart, that had the same FP/BP, yet portions of the sheet could only function with a 20,000 skip.  I remember getting BEY 2004 new, and BEW as well and noticing that MANY notes were often missing - infact, prior to 2005 $10s, often times the bricks DID NOT start at 000  and go to 999.   There would be 1000 notes, but the number range would exceed 1000, because many notes at times were missing (and not even replaced). 
Anyway, the ream sizes are much larger (900,000 notes at least), and evidence points to sporadic removal and non-replacement of notes, AND serial number ommission everynow and then.  Yes, a real mess.  This begins at BEU Ream 2, and ends with the end of BEY 2004.

To say they had a very irregular release is an understatement. :)

Hudson
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 11:52:24 am by Hudson A B »

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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2007, 07:57:51 pm »

Hi Husdon

why the Ream 12 and 15 you passes 40000

Ream 8:
2820000- 2860000 Regular Issue

Ream 9:
2860000- 2900000 Replacements

Ream 10:
2900000- 2940000 Replacements

Ream 11:
2940000- 2980000 Replacements

Ream 12:
3020000- 3060000 Regular Issue

Ream 13:
3060000- 3100000 Regular Issue

Ream 14:
3100000- 3140000 Regular Issue

Ream 15:
3180000- 3220000 Regular Issue

Ream 16:
3220000- 3260000 Regular Issue
Hudson A B
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« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2007, 04:32:08 am »

Hi Roberto- I omitted those by mistake. I have adjusted the ream numbers and added those reams.  Thank you for alerting me.
The original post should now be complete.
Regards,
H

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« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2007, 11:47:52 am »

Quote
Anyway, the ream sizes are much larger (900,000 notes at least), and evidence points to sporadic removal and non-replacement of notes, AND serial number ommission everynow and then.  Yes, a real mess.  This begins at BEU Ream 2, and ends with the end of BEY 2004.

To say they had a very irregular release is an understatement

Hudson- thanks for illuminating the mysteries behind the 04 BEY

It appears as if the BABN struggled with the production of the new modified $10's... It makes one wonder what kind of problems occurred and what kind (if any) errors were encountered (will be discovered).

Quote
A total of 400,000 replacements were spread over those 75,000,000 notes
So 05 BEY replacements were inserted over 8 prefixes? Wow.. Can you just review which prefixes they were found in?

thanks again,
WTW

 

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