Beilstein flame test on BCS sleeves

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

The Beilstein test is prone to false positive results (if there is contamination with salt from your fingers, for example...).  It's not a foolproof test.  It requires a throughly cleaned wire at each time you use it.

And when you test a plastic and get a positive result, always do the same test with another plastic which is sure not contain PVC (as the styrofoam from a new coffee cup, or from a labeled #6 and/or PS plastic item).  If you get a positive result from a surely non-containing chlorine material, it's surely a contamination and cast a doubt on your results...

But the best way is to have the plastic analyzed by a non-destructive test as FT-IR spectrometry, but it requires to pay for or to have a friend who works in a laboratory able to do this test .

I don't want to enter into technicalities, but the test is probably the best available and the fastest (few minutes only).  If you really want to know more, just do a Google search for FT-IR spectrometry...

I have decided to remove all of my BCS-graded notes from their holders

Now wouldn't that be funny if your test results were false

Now wouldn't that be funny if your test results were false

Fred,

Next time, please quote the entire sentence, not just a fragment of it in a vain attempt to change the meaning of the original words.  Here's what I actually said:

I have decided to remove all of my BCS-graded notes from their holders for reasons that are not applicable to this thread.

In other words, I decided to do the Beilstein test AFTER I removed my notes from the BCS holders.  You're free to do the test while your notes are still in the holders.  This thread is not a commentary on BCS service or grading.

Fred,

Next time, please quote the entire sentence, not just a fragment of it in a vain attempt to change the meaning of the original words.  Here's what I actually said:

OK JOE

This was the reply I received from PMG this morning

Our holders are PVC & acid free.
They are made of materials used for long-term storage.
 
Moon Phaengsavanh
PMG Operations Manager
941-309-1001 Ext 202
941-309-1002 Fax
www.PMGnotes.com
 

FRIEDSQUID

Hello all

After contacting the manufacturer of BCS's holder, I have some information that may shed some light on this question.  Yes, BCS holders do contain PVC's, otherwise knows as Poly Vinal Chloride.  This is a very common plastic used in many forms of industry.  However, the BCS holders do not contain what are called Plasticers, which are additives to the plastic that make it softer and more malubal.  PVC when mixed with these additives tends to leach out acids over time, potentially causing damage to whatever it is in contact with.  PVC in it's pure form, however, is completely inert and stable. 

If you care to learn more about PVCs, I have done some basic research on the topic.

https://www.ppfahome.org/pvc/greenbuilding.html
http://www.globalspec.com/reference/3433/Polyvinyl-Chloride-PVC
http://www.geomembrane.com/techpapers/whatispvc.htm
http://books.google.ca/books?id=-mniTRNs7tMC&pg=PT85&lpg=PT85&dq=PVC+inert&source=bl&ots=MBDlIRepnT&sig=cmkGkXaS4JsrEAxGAzNR0sTvg5o&hl=en&ei=8PUTS7qVENTmlAfKwOWgBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAoQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=PVC%20inert&f=false

This last link is the most technical of the lot.  You pretty much need a degree in chemistry to understand it, but in reading the chapter summaries it is clear that modern PVC's have an undeserved bad reputation.  Outdated processing techniques that are not used anymore and tradition have cast a shadow over the use of PVC's due to the belief that it is unstable.  Modern, plasticer-free, PVC is completely inert and safe for things like water pipes, children's toys, and in our case, paper preservation.

I am still waiting on the specific chemical makeup of the BCS plastic and will still get a test independent of the manufacture.  However, I hope the information I have provided so far has answered your questions and strenghened your trust in BCS.

Thank you for your consideration.

BCS

Unfortunately there are no results yet on the independent testing.  I'll keep you informed on any updates.

BCS

What laboratory are you using?   Six to eight weeks (Nov 30) seems like a long time to get laboratory results, for routine testing you should have something back in two weeks unless it is something which is extremely specialized or the supplier has agreed to do.  That has been my experience with external laboratories.

Hello

I actually havn't submitted a sample for testing yet.  I'm still waiting on the chemical make up of the plastic being used by the manufacture.  I wanted to have that information so I could submit it with the plastic to the Lab.  Maybe that info could shed some light on the result, or maybe that information could mean something to the testers??  I've never done anything like this so I"m treding in new waters.

I appologise for the wait.  I know it may seem like I"m putting this on the back burner, but truthfully i'm very interested in getting all the assurance I can that these holders are safe.

I'll keep you updated

BCS

Hello
I actually havn't submitted a sample for testing yet.  I'm still waiting on the chemical make up of the plastic being used by the manufacture.  I wanted to have that information so I could submit it with the plastic to the Lab.  Maybe that info could shed some light on the result, or maybe that information could mean something to the testers??  I've never done anything like this so I"m treding in new waters.
I appologise for the wait.  I know it may seem like I"m putting this on the back burner, but truthfully i'm very interested in getting all the assurance I can that these holders are safe.
I'll keep you updated
BCS

Any further updates or information yet?

Hello

I've got the technical specs from the manufacture.  It also seems that they did an independent test as well and they included that in the report.  Since it's all written in a chemistry language I do not understand, I'm off to a chemist in a lab so they can translate it into something I can understand. 

Imediately this seems promising.  Not only do we have the written affirmation from a multinational corporation of the safety of this plastic, we have a test done in an independent lab (SGS Tiawan Ltd.), and to top it off, Lighthouse Ltd. has always used this plastic in their products, giving us decades of samples to see real world long term effects.

I'm still going to seek out the opinion of a professional and keep you updated.  Once I have figured out what the independent annalysis says, I will post it on the BCS website, with perhaps some common language insight from an actual chemist.  However, I hope what has been uncovered so far has helped alleviate any concerns you have about the safety of BCS holders.

Talk to you soon

BCS

Thanks for the update

I'm still going to seek out the opinion of a professional and keep you updated.  Once I have figured out what the independent annalysis says, I will post it on the BCS website, with perhaps some common language insight from an actual chemist.  However, I hope what has been uncovered so far has helped alleviate any concerns you have about the safety of BCS holders. Talk to you soon 
BCS

Any further information available?  Thanks

Sorry morgage guy, not yet.
i've got the test report back, but i'm still searching for some clarification from a chemist.
It all seems good to me.....no significant traces of harmful chemicals.  I just like to be through before I present my findings.
If you like you can come down to the office and take a look at it your self.

BCS

Thanks for the update Steve.