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Topic: Do graded bills sell for more?  (Read 17917 times)
Bruxi
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« on: January 22, 2012, 03:50:47 pm »

At some point I am going to purge some items on ebay.  I see that some sellers have their bills graded. 

Do you think that helps them to sell at a premium that recovers the cost of the grading?

All opinions welcome!
mmars
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2012, 04:54:49 pm »

Depends if you're selling uncirculated or circulated notes.  The uncirculated ones will probably sell for more than a raw note, but not slabbed circulated notes.  You can try to recover the premium up-front, but buyers will pay what buyers will pay.  Like a lot of businesses these days do, you could use the higher prices you get for Unc notes to leverage the added costs of the certification of your circulated notes.  It's like how fast food restaurants charge a lot for their regular menu items to cover lower profits on their discount menu.

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walktothewater
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« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2012, 06:43:36 pm »

Quote
I see that some sellers have their bills graded. 

Do you think that helps them to sell at a premium that recovers the cost of the grading?

IMO:
I do believe most people who sell on ebay are expecting to recover the cost of grading and that is why they tend to try to sell their notes at a premium.  Whether they actually sell or not is another story.  As mmars suggests- higher grades will probably sell for more than a raw note (& are probably more likely to sell).

As for your topic question: Do graded bills sell for more?

I think it depends on the note, its eye appeal/grade, do the collectors have faith in the grade, & how it is being listed:
A) is it rare or sought after? (ie: is there enough interest in the note auctioned?) Devil Faces aren't really that rare but they're sought after & I've noticed more action for the TPG higher grades.  If you are talking about BIRD or Journey notes then I would definitely hold off as they seem to be quite commonly graded and typically listed for catalogue (or less) and they (esp insert/replacements) don't seem to be selling that well.  I've seen both RAW and graded later series notes that have been re-listed over and over with no takers.

B) if it is sought after and has very nice eye appeal?
If it is an older series and has been graded "original" then it would ultimately appeal to a wider range of collectors who buy online (if there is ONE compelling argument for buying graded notes- it would have to be that there is a 3rd party certification claiming it is original which alleviates a good deal of skepticism amongst collectors who do buy online, and who cannot inspect the note in person)

C) Who/what 3rd party grading company has graded/slabbed the note? (are they conservative or liberal in their grade?)
Although I'm not partial to slabbed notes- I would lean to Canadian BCS rather than the American PMG.  However, I have bought the latter (PMG) once simply because I liked the note and the price.

D) How is the note listed? 
Personally I believe true auctions garner much more attention, excitement & interest since there is no set (often inflated) starting price & such true auctions test what the present market will bear for a note.  However, sometimes I have noticed graded notes very reasonably priced at a fairly low start so I almost wonder if people just search for true auction notes (either way- its a dicey call to go to the bother of grading a note and then have it sell for less then you want!)

If you are contemplating grading all your excess notes so you can sell them for more- I would caution you against it (unless you can get them batch graded for a discount) or you can defer selling now and wait till the market heats up.  For one, I would only grade notes you have confidence there will be immediate interest in them now (they are sought after or somewhat rare).  IF the are EF or fairly common- I would sell them raw. 

friedsquid
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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2012, 06:58:25 pm »

At some point I am going to purge some items on ebay.  I see that some sellers have their bills graded. 

Do you think that helps them to sell at a premium that recovers the cost of the grading?

All opinions welcome!

The one thing you may not be aware of is that some dealers do get their notes graded by TPG's and feel that they have been undergraded and then remove them
from the slabs. In this case I guess they will recoup their cost of grading if they grade the note higher than it was by a TPG.



Always looking for #1 serial number notes in any denomination/any series
alvin5454
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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2012, 08:54:53 pm »

Buyers should always buy the note, not the grading service's opinion.
mmars
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« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2012, 03:38:31 pm »

The one thing you may not be aware of is that some dealers do get their notes graded by TPG's and feel that they have been undergraded and then remove them
from the slabs. In this case I guess they will recoup their cost of grading if they grade the note higher than it was by a TPG.

Ha ha, so true.  As liberal as some TPGs are with grading, the loosest standards are still found on eBay, which is sad because it makes it hard for the few honest sellers to get anywhere.  So the undergraded notes are removed from the TPG holders and sold raw, and the overgraded notes are listed with small, indistinct pictures.  As you know, rule #1 of eBay sellers is that the most valuable items should have the smallest pictures  O:-) .

 Rule #2 is that any note in EF or better should be called a Gem.  :o

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tommyboy
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2012, 08:02:46 pm »

I am thinking of having my 1954 issues graded. Is the Canadian BCS a trusted source for grading in the sense--do they under grade or over grade?  I am leery of sending the notes to the US for grading because they could be subjected to the Canadian Customs taxes upon reentry into  Canada. I have had that happen on some coins in the past.
Any thoughts?   TOMMYBOY
Wizard1
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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2012, 08:09:35 pm »

BCS is a great company for graded notes known for their very strict standards. IMHO they do not over or under grade. They are very accurate with their overall grading.

In terms of customs:

2. The provision allows customs duty-free entry on the full value (export value and the foreign value added) of the returned goods, which were temporarily exported to a free trade partner (United States, Mexico, Chile, Israel, or a CIFTA beneficiary) for repair or alteration. At the time of import no customs duty is paid on the value of the repair or alteration. However, duties under the Excise Tax Act including the goods and services tax (GST) and excise tax, if applicable, are payable on the foreign value added. Where excisable goods are repaired abroad, and the value is enhanced, excise tax is payable on the duty-paid value of the enhancement. For duty purposes, this provision applies to qualifying goods regardless of whether the repair or alteration is under warranty or not and regardless of whether the repair or alteration could have been performed in Canada.

As long as grading does not increase the value of the note (which is doesn't) it should be duty free. I got hit with duty for a bunch of notes I sent to an US TPG last week because Im assuming they think im importing them. So I am sending copies of my original receipts (when I exported them) and the invoice from the TPG showing that they are returning them back to me.

tommyboy
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2012, 06:43:10 pm »

Many thanks on your reply. this helps a lot.
Tommyboy--happy collecting
alvin5454
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2012, 04:11:36 pm »

With all due respect for the posters to this forum, and to BCS, I have found that all TPG services are inconsistent.
I have found notes from all services both overgraded (moreso from U.S. services) and undergraded (equally from Canadian and U.S. services.)
The bottom line is don't buy the holder, buy the note.
Examine the note in the holder from many different angles and lights. It's often difficult to tell.
Take time to confirm your opinion of TPG-graded notes.
Bruxi
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2012, 09:16:40 pm »

The bottom line is don't buy the holder, buy the note.

I guess the reason I asked the question is that you can't examine notes that are bought online (as so many are).  So as a buyer, TPG gives you the added reassurance that it has been examined by someone else vs. relying on scans or photos.  As an earlier poster suggested, this is especially important in higher value notes as this reassurance will attract more buyers.  So in essence, the "holder" acts as insurance that the seller is not completely misrepresenting the condition of the note.
alvin5454
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« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2012, 12:44:47 am »

I wouldn't buy anything, even TPG, online, that does not have a return privilege.
That way when your graded-in-the-U.S. UNC-60 note looks more like a Canadian AU 50 or EF 45 when it arrives, you can send it back.
TPG holders are not insurance, if you are buying notes to sell in a week, a year, a decade or a lifetime...
therealco1986
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 06:13:09 pm »

I am going to say yes.  If only for the fact that it costs money to grade them.  Say, for example, I just bought a seller proclaimed UNC 1954 $2 modified with no special serial.  I paid about $5 shipped for it.  It looks really nice.  But, I'm not sure if I'd call it UNC or AU?  That's my opinion.  But, if someone were selling a 1954 $2 modified note that was graded UNC 60, or higher, I'm sure it'd sell for more than $5 shipped.

Pictures can be very deceiving.  I've bought some 1937 notes people say are EF+...  I end up being extremely disappointed when they arrive and look in terrible condition.  Had they been third party graded, and were given EF, I'd probably trust it much more.  Then again, some sellers say they are EF+, and they arrive and look much better, Almost UNC in my opinion.  So, the TPG factor can help a buyer out.  And in turn can make the item easier to sell for a higher premium!

Just my thoughts!
Frank_Lut
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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2014, 06:01:28 pm »

I am going to say yes.  If only for the fact that it costs money to grade them.  Say, for example, I just bought a seller proclaimed UNC 1954 $2 modified with no special serial.  I paid about $5 shipped for it.  It looks really nice.  But, I'm not sure if I'd call it UNC or AU?  That's my opinion.  But, if someone were selling a 1954 $2 modified note that was graded UNC 60, or higher, I'm sure it'd sell for more than $5 shipped.

Pictures can be very deceiving.  I've bought some 1937 notes people say are EF+...  I end up being extremely disappointed when they arrive and look in terrible condition.  Had they been third party graded, and were given EF, I'd probably trust it much more.  Then again, some sellers say they are EF+, and they arrive and look much better, Almost UNC in my opinion.  So, the TPG factor can help a buyer out.  And in turn can make the item easier to sell for a higher premium!

Just my thoughts!

Agreed; it depends on the bill, but generally yes it's worth it
walktothewater
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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2014, 06:56:35 pm »

Quote
Pictures can be very deceiving.  I've bought some 1937 notes people say are EF+...  I end up being extremely disappointed when they arrive and look in terrible condition.  Had they been third party graded, and were given EF, I'd probably trust it much more.  Then again, some sellers say they are EF+, and they arrive and look much better, Almost UNC in my opinion.  So, the TPG factor can help a buyer out.  And in turn can make the item easier to sell for a higher premium!

Just my thoughts!

Agreed; it depends on the bill, but generally yes it's worth it

OF course pictures can be deceiving (& so can the seller's words describing the said note).  That's why it can never hurt just to learn how to grade.  Or better yet: develop a critical awareness of what makes a note desirable/collectible and what makes a note have good eye appeal (is rare or tough to find, collectible, etc).  

mmars
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« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2014, 11:00:20 pm »

Older circulated notes with a high degree of eye appeal are definitely NOT worth having graded.  The technical grade is not based at all on aesthetics, and putting a really great-looking note in a slab does not do it justice.  Raw notes with an eye appeal that exceeds the stated grade will do well with speculative buyers.  Slabbing such a note will subdue any second-guessing done by potential buyers who might think the note is actually a higher grade based on how it looks.

Not surprisingly, the notes that are most likely to stay inside a third-party slab are the grungy dirty yet firm ones.  Anything VF-AU that looks stained or just grubby is going to be quite unpopular, and getting an artificially high technical grade doesn't fool anyone.

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therealco1986
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« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2014, 10:07:23 pm »

I feel that it depends on the TPG.  I often see run of the mill notes graded going for much more than an ungraded version of the same notes.  When you get down to the real hard to find notes, though, you tend to see the grade come in handy for figuring out the worth of the note.  So, if a professional grades a $5 train note, it will likely sell for around catalogue value.  Whereas a fairly normal 1954 $1 Devil's Face graded by PMG as a 68 ultra gem or whatever they call is being sold for $200 when the catalogue says it's worth about $140 doesn't really make sense to me.

For the record, I prefer BCS.
tripoli
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« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2014, 12:52:46 pm »

I have had too many bills graded by dealers that come back from BCS at much lower grades, I will only be buying notes from one dealer who can actually grade or notes already graded by a professsional.  So yes, I am willing to pay a premium for a graded note, because I am already paying a larger premium for overgraded raw notes.
 

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