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Topic: Fake counterfeits?  (Read 19337 times)
mmars
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« on: June 27, 2013, 02:51:39 pm »

I think someone discovered a neat way of selling highly processed and/or damaged notes for profit... call them counterfeit and list them on eBay...
(listing numbers removed - mmars)

First of all, I didn't know eBay allowed the sale of counterfeit paper money.  I don't think they do, but these listings slipped through the crack and I would strongly discourage anyone from trying to do the same.  Secondly, the notes look real to me... all the microprinting is there.  Anyone else care to comment?

Edit: I made a screen shot in case the item gets pulled after the fact...

{http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/6716/1vxo.jpg:http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/6716/1vxo.th.jpg}
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 03:02:58 pm by mmars »

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twoplustwo
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« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2013, 04:01:47 pm »

That's weird.  So you're suggesting the seller is banking on getting more for a low grade note simply by listing it as a counterfeit?

Gary_T
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2013, 06:20:15 pm »

The screenshot already shows that it's selling for more than it would as a low quality note. Probably more than double or triple what it should sell for.

Gary_T
Seth
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2013, 08:23:29 pm »

LOL. I can see the eBay negative feedback already. I paid for a counterfeit note and he sent me the real thing! What a ripoff!


OTOH, maybe there's a secret market for 1954 counterfeit notes. Twenty years earlier, the Nazis were producing counterfeits of Bank of England notes. Today these sell on the collector market for more than their genuine counterparts.  >:(

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mmars
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2013, 04:42:46 pm »

That's weird.  So you're suggesting the seller is banking on getting more for a low grade note simply by listing it as a counterfeit?

That is exactly what I am suggesting.  Low grade common series notes are worth very little if anything above face value.  One thing these types of notes are used for is experimentation in basement laboratories.  Y'know, by people trying to learn to clean and press.  These notes tend to be low grade and have a fishy appearance.  Not coincidentally, counterfeit notes are expected to be low grade and have a fishy appearance.  The $5 note shown above (which sold, BTW, for over $60) shows evidence, IMO, of cleaning/pressing.  Another of the seller's notes, a $1 note with the serial numbers almost entirely missing, is likely the result of exposure to bleaching agents.  If one looks closely at that note, one can see residual evidence of a serial number previously printed on the note.

LOL. I can see the eBay negative feedback already. I paid for a counterfeit note and he sent me the real thing! What a ripoff!

 :D Yes indeed, that would be quite funny, but in reality, the buyer is completely handcuffed.  He/she can't return the note or complain to eBay afterward.

OTOH, maybe there's a secret market for 1954 counterfeit notes.

There very well could be, and I am aware that there are avid collectors of counterfeit Canadian coins (the period counterfeits - not the modern stuff from China).  However, I would expect the taboo of collecting fake paper money to be much more significant.  I don't think anyone has gone to jail for having a few old 50-cent pieces made out of lead metal, but fake currency is a serious matter to the Bank of Canada and to the police.  Maybe the high auction prices are due to the realization that counterfeit paper money is inherently "dangerous".

Twenty years earlier, the Nazis were producing counterfeits of Bank of England notes. Today these sell on the collector market for more than their genuine counterparts.  >:(
Another example would be 18th century British copper coins produced in North America, like the so-called "blacksmith tokens".  Just like your example, there was a historical precedence for the counterfeits to be produced, and that's why they are collectible to the point of outstripping the originals in value.  But most counterfeits don't accrue high values over time.  I don't see any historical precedence for fake 1954 series notes, do you?  They might seem interesting, but as the eBay auctions demonstrate, it would be all too easy for someone to claim a note is counterfeit and attempt to make a profit from it.  Since most collectors can't learn to grade, it's not surprising that they also can't seem to tell the difference between real and fake.  And therein lies an opportunity for exploitation.  Anyone could take an old note and hand-cancel it the way some notes from broken banks were cancelled to prevent possible future redemption.

Realistically, though, I don't expect to see a bunch of copycat auctions.  For one, dealers are not going to risk their reputations selling counterfeits.  Secondly, like I said above, most collectors just don't know real from fake, original from processed, etc.  So it would not occur to these people that they could take a fishy-looking note and represent it as being fake.

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mmars
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« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2013, 08:57:43 pm »

If I may be permitted to be Mr. Obvious for a minute, one reason it does not make good sense to pay a strong price for counterfeits is that they are relatively easy to make.  Many people have access to colour printers.  But that requires effort, and just taking a real note and calling it counterfeit is even simpler.  If there are buyers foolish enough to throw away money, and eBay is not going to enforce its own policies, why should anyone say this should never happen?

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Wizard1
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« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2013, 10:20:16 pm »

Technically if the seller claims to posses and then (knowingly) subsequently sells said "counterfeit" note, and the RCMP caught wind of it... he would be in big trouble no?

mmars
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2013, 08:44:24 pm »

Technically if the seller claims to posses and then (knowingly) subsequently sells said "counterfeit" note, and the RCMP caught wind of it... he would be in big trouble no?

You would think so, right?  And yet someone obviously got away with several listings on eBay.  Technically, any counterfeit that is of an issue that is still redeemable should be illegal, but we know this is not 100% true because there are several examples of notes that are historical and collectible as counterfeits.  Think about the 1870 Dominion of Canada $2 note.  There's also the Dominion Bank 1871 $4 note and some 19th century Bank of Montreal issues that were extensively counterfeited.  How is a collector supposed to know when a note is old and rare enough that owning a counterfeit example is not going to get him in hot water?

Taking a genuine note and calling it counterfeit and selling it as such would seem to be a legal loophole.  In other words, if the RCMP are called to investigate, producing the actual genuine note might get the owner out of trouble.  Or it might not.  Nobody these days seems to be willing to profess to have any expertise at identifying counterfeit notes.  Bank clerks seem clueless about older series notes, so why not RCMP officers too?  They could be presented with the note and still decide to lay charges because that's way easier for them than doing any actual investigating.  Anyone care to give it a try?  >:(

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Rupiah
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2013, 09:04:41 pm »

I thought I understood the original point of the thread i.e. take a genuine note, call it a counterfeit and sell it at a premium. While this is possibly unethical it is probably not a criminal offence. Buyer beware applies to everything everywhere.

But then as the thread progressed I got confused about the original point. Doing a bit of research I found this document called prosecuting counterfeit bank note offences (2005)

http://www.bankofcanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/counterfeit_manual_littlefield.pdf





Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
 

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