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Topic: Polymer Missing Holograph Errors  (Read 20587 times)
canada-banknotes
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« on: September 19, 2015, 09:58:50 am »

Although I am a strong believer that "authentic" polymer missing holograph errors exist they will never appear in the catalogue or have credibility in the marketplace when so many "manufactured" error notes exist.  I recall reading a thread on another numismatic forum where members were discussing their ability to remove the holograph and not damage the rest of the note by using acetone.

But then there are the fortunate souls among us who defy statistical odds by not only finding one missing holograph error in circulation but numerous spanning multiple denominations.  Who will be the lucky eBay buyer to add these gems to their collection ?




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Seth
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2015, 10:52:37 am »

Wow! Imagine the odds of finding not one, but three of these in circulation! Amazing! </sarcasm>

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canada-banknotes
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2015, 12:06:17 pm »

Wow! Imagine the odds of finding not one, but three of these in circulation! Amazing! </sarcasm>

Wait it gets better.  If you check the completed auctions for this seller he has already sold five (5) notes with missing holographs (4x$5 and 1x$20).

The quality control at the printers must be really bad since this is not isolated to one sheet or even one ream as the prefixes on the $5 errors include HBR, HCB and HBW.

The prefixes on the $20 errors are BIK and FVT.  I'm sure he will do special order missing holographs for the new commerative $20s upon request.   :D



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Rupiah
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2015, 03:52:09 pm »

Wow! Imagine the odds of finding not one, but three of these in circulation! Amazing! </sarcasm>

Aren't these found in bricks?   ??? And I am not sure why the catalogue would not include them when they have been certified by BCS?


Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
Seth
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2015, 04:02:21 pm »

From what I understand, it's possible to chemically remove the holograms without leaving a trace, making it impossible to distinguish them from genuine errors. I don't know if BCS or any other grader can authoritatively determine between authentic errors and fakes. The editors of Charlton don't seem to believe so.

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Rupiah
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2015, 12:39:16 am »

From what I understand, it's possible to chemically remove the holograms without leaving a trace, making it impossible to distinguish them from genuine errors. I don't know if BCS or any other grader can authoritatively determine between authentic errors and fakes. The editors of Charlton don't seem to believe so.

Many genuine errors that are accepted by the collector community based on "authoritative" word can also be reproduced in a way that makes them impossible to distinguish them from genuine errors. Why the different treatment? Classic example is the creating of an offset printing of the prefix on the face of the note.

If some credible person says that error X is genuine and it is accepted that way then how does it matter whether it is holograms or something else.

I believe the hologram on the Journey note could also be removed in a similar way and that has been listed in Charlton at least up until the version I had. The chemical that removes the metallic portion of the hologram is very common chemical and it does not easily affect the adjoining ink. In Journey it takes more care in Frontier it is easier.

However if people are inclined there are ways to determine if things have been chemically altered or not even though they may look genuine. There are some easy tests that can be done on such notes.


Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
IamCollector
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« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2015, 04:05:35 am »

I work in a financial institution and have seen the errors on the Polymers as well as the Journey notes.  However, in each instance the notes were 5's and everytime the notes were in extremely bad condition and not worth the time or energy to resell.  There was one instance that a Polymer(supposedly pulled from a new brick)was found while I was not at work and was sent back to the BOC.  I would say for certain they do exist but must be very rare.  This guy that is selling them fairly often must have access to millions of bills or is a simple fraud.
walktothewater
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« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2015, 07:09:12 pm »

Quote
I don't know if BCS or any other grader can authoritatively determine between authentic errors and fakes.
  Besides BCS (who do not partake in such murky/debatable practices) - other TPG will occasionally commit themselves to grading an error (as an "error") but most do not.  This is especially true with missing OSD or holographic errors b/c they're notoriously disreputable (ie faked).

The early observations of "canada-banknotes" were made in "tongue & cheek" (or somewhat/overtly sarcastic) I believe.  Many of us long-standing members recall (or have traced) the less than honourable sales-practices (including the dubious "golden maple leaf" 1867 commemorative/or the $2.00 polar bear notes) in the past. Manufactured error notes aren't much different from manufactured commemorative or other types of so-called "special" notes.  If you believe that note is special & pay a premium for it - than that is like a black mark on the collecting community.   I'm sure Canada-Banknotes is directing his commentary at us "old-timers" & may likely be dismayed that someone is still trying to exploit the "less informed" to pay premium $ for something not worth the $.

Quote
If some credible person says that error X is genuine and it is accepted that way then how does it matter whether it is holograms or something else

It only matters in that the said "credible person" will likely loose considerable credibility (at least amongst most collectors)! It also matters when a collector (newbie or seasoned) pays too much for said note.

Holographic errors (& OSD - Optical Security Devices that are missing) are considered extremely dubious in terms of validating their authenticity. Check out P. 409 "note" on bottom of page in Charlton 27th Ed Canadian Government Paper Money Catalogue which states "Errors with the OSD missing are no longer listed here. These errors can easily be faked. It has been discovered that a common cleaning product can remove the oSD without a trace...."
 
I can tell you for a fact that Charlton doesn't dream this stuff  up- it is true- and I've seen it verified in person.  The CPMS & various shows/venues are a great place to start if you remain skeptical re: how the "experts" determine when a fake is a fake compared to a forged fake.   

Rupiah
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« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2015, 09:54:27 pm »

Quote
Besides BCS (who do not partake in such murky/debatable practices) - other TPG will occasionally commit themselves to grading an error (as an "error") but most do not.  This is especially true with missing OSD or holographic errors b/c they're notoriously disreputable (ie faked).

I was referring to the fact that a BCS certified (as an "error") polymer without hologram was listed on e-bay and sold for significantly above face value.

Quote
Holographic errors (& OSD - Optical Security Devices that are missing) are considered extremely dubious in terms of validating their authenticity. Check out P. 409 "note" on bottom of page in Charlton 27th Ed Canadian Government Paper Money Catalogue which states "Errors with the OSD missing are no longer listed here. These errors can easily be faked. It has been discovered that a common cleaning product can remove the oSD without a trace...."

In the prior edition of Charlton that I have it also lists error BC-58b - Missing Holographic Strip. The quote from them:

"Holographic strips can also be removed from the notes. In this case, the overlying printing will also be removed. A genuine missing holographic strip error note will show the coat of arms and denomination, normally superimposed on the strip, printed directly on paper"

Firstly it has been shown that there are chemicals that will remove the hologram material without removing the intaglio ink. So the criteria of a genuine missing holographic strip error in the GPM catalog can be reproduced in a note with some common chemicals. As I said in a previous post a bit more time consuming then the polymer but easily possible nonetheless. The accompanying image I believe begins to prove this point.

Secondly the example in the GPM Catalog shown as BC-58b with a $20 note. The note is supposed to show a genuine missing holographic strip.

I am no expert in these things and still have a lot to learn but with all the notes I have seen I think the word "Canada" running along side of the hologram is part of the hologram.

So in the genuine missing holographic strip error would one not expect the word "Canada" to also be missing?

Maybe the GPM has already ruled this type of error to be not genuine just like missing OSD. I will have to check the latest catalog to figure it out.


Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
canada-banknotes
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2015, 12:55:29 pm »

The "manufacturing" of $5 polymer notes with missing holographs is still occurring.

We now have a new seller on eBay of these error notes.  He was lucky enough to get two in sequence (i.e. from two different sheets in the ream) and one from a totally different prefix.

Here is a link to the listing and I have attached images of his three (3) error notes.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/RARE-BC-69b-2013-Bank-of-Canada-5-Polymer-Note-Missing-Hologram-Major-Error-UNC-/252204206746

     
     



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Rupiah
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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2015, 06:34:09 pm »

The recent high quality photo of the Inverted $20 as shown by Canada_Banknotes clearly shows what happens in the journey series when the holographic stripe is missing from its position.

IMHO the $20 note shown as BC-58b - Error E8-iii Missing Holograhpic strip in the GPMC does not seem right.


Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
AZ
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« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2016, 09:18:04 pm »

I sold an UNC $10 M/P FTS note to a buyer in Saskatchewan last week. Today it appeared on eBay as a "missing hologram" error, being sold under a different eBay account. See item 172068984456. On the image below, the top two notes are the shoulders I still have, the third note is the "error".

 
canada-banknotes
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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2016, 11:16:43 pm »

I sold an UNC $10 M/P FTS note to a buyer in Saskatchewan last week. Today it appeared on eBay as a "missing hologram" error, being sold under a different eBay account. See item 172068984456. On the image below, the top two notes are the shoulders I still have, the third note is the "error".

 


Was it a missing holograph note when you sold it, or did it mysteriously morph into this error after you shipped it ?



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AZ
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« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2016, 07:28:06 am »

Was it a missing holograph note when you sold it, or did it mysteriously morph into this error after you shipped it ?

It mysteriously became an error after I shipped a regular note.
BWJM
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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2016, 08:34:40 am »

It mysteriously became an error after I shipped a regular note.
Cool - I'd like to know how to do that, just so I can have such a 'novelty' note.

For the record, I condemn the deliberate alteration of banknotes for the purposes of selling them as authentic error notes.  This could easily be construed as misleading at best, and more likely fraud.

BWJM
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