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Topic: $5 Polymer Missing Face Design Error - Genuine or Fraud ?  (Read 9526 times)
canada-banknotes
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« on: July 30, 2016, 12:36:30 pm »

I noticed a third $5 polymer note with a missing face design on eBay today.  Is this a genuine error or a fraud ?

In recent years we have seen a large number of Canadian error notes that are the result of tampering.  The result is that banknote collectors have to be more careful in their purchases and need to do extensive research before paying large sums of money for questionable error notes.

Some interesting facts with regards to these polymer missing face design error notes:

1) the previous note with this error that that showed up on eBay in September 2015 had the serial number HCB 1094746
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Missing-face-design-error-note-5-Bank-of-Canada-Uncirculated-/231678009154

2) the new note has the serial number HBY 6464400
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Ghost-Error-missing-face-design-Canadian-polymer-5-HBY-prefix-/182224399590

3) if you check the feedback history of the seller of the currently listed error note you will see that he also sold another one of these notes during the past six months with the prefix HAC;  Canadian polymer $5 HAC prefix error missing face design (1 note) (#172128035038)

3) although the eBay seller IDs are different, I have been able to determine unequivocally that it is the same seller.  The fact that the seller has two different eBay accounts for selling three similar Canadian banknote errors, all with different prefixes, is extremely suspicious in my opinion.

4) These are the only three public examples I have come across of a missing face design error on a $5 polymer note and all three notes have different prefixes.

5) the seller is long standing member of the CPMF and I encourage him to respond to this posting with regards to the authenticity and provenance of these notes.


     



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CA_Banknotes
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2016, 12:27:53 pm »

A telltale sign would be if the intaglio embossing is on the note.

Many years ago (I posted a picture on here) of how I managed to erase all the ink off a $100 note using a simple eraser, and it looked similar to the error here. From what I can tell on the photos, you can still see the faint marks of where the intaglio printing should be (it is lighter in those areas than the rest of the background.) For that reason, I would say it is probable that this is not a real error.
copperpete
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2016, 09:10:49 am »

Some chemical solvents can also be used to remove the intaglio ink.  But the really good solvents for this use can be difficult to find (many aren't find in domestic use) and it can be difficult (but not impossible) to find a solvent selective enough to remove only the blue ink without altering the others inks (or the primer applied on the polymer).
An eraser (which is abrasive) should leave many microscopic scratches on the note and a solvent should also remove a bit of the other inks, so an examination with a good loupe or USB microscope should reveal if the error is a fake or not  But in any case, I would be very doubtful about the authenticity of the error.

canada-banknotes
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2016, 11:07:58 am »

The seller of this banknote has chosen to end the eBay auction early "because there was an error in the listing."

This in itself is not unusual on eBay.  What is very unusual and suspicious is the fact that the seller changed the description of the auction and the corresponding banknote image to that of a "1867-1967 Canada $1 Centennial Commemorative note Unc" prior to ending the auction, thereby removing any historical record of the original listing details.

Fortunately the eBay URL link still contains the original listing description.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Ghost-Error-missing-face-design-Canadian-polymer-5-HBY-prefix-/182224399590

You can join the dots and come to your own conclusion.  I have already reached mine.



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Rupiah
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« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2016, 12:35:48 am »

There is a key element in the production of polymer notes that makes it fairly easy for anyone with a note in hand to determine if some ink from intaglio or letterpress or even lithographic printing was removed post production.

This is because the final element that gets "printed" on the polymer sheet is the varnish. The varnish provides a unique sheen to the surface of the ink which when removed removes that sheen. Pick up any note from circulation which has excessive folds and creases and you will be able to notice this difference where the varnish has worn off. Just view the note at a low angle.

For the note that was listed on the e-bay there is an additional thing that tells that this is a suspect note. The lithographic printing element bleeds into the area printed with intaglio. There is clear evidence on this note even without substantial magnification that this underlying lithographic printing has been removed.

Someone suggested in one of the posts that if the intaglio embossing is on the note but there is no ink on the note than it is a tell tale sign that the ink has been removed.

In my humble opinion this is erroneous. It is a known fact that when the cells in the engraved plate are starved of ink then it will leave an embossing but not leave any ink. One very prominent polymer bank note author/collector/vendor used to have error notes on their website and had shown many fine examples of such an error because of ink starvation.

This can be seen with the intaglio printing of the Queen's portrait on the $20 bill. I have done extensive studies of notes from new bundles where it is easy to spot (although not common) such missing intaglio areas caused by cells starved of ink. When they occur they even repeat with some known frequency in the exact same spots in a manner that can be explained in terms of the the printing process (Please refer to an article on this in the June 2016 issue  of CPMS Journal).

Here is an image (click thumbnail for higher magnification) where intaglio is missing because of ink starvation in the cell.



You will notice that in this example the underlying ink is completely intact. What is not noticeable in a scan but is easily seen when viewing the note at an angle is  that the varnish is also intact. You will also notice in the higher magnification the outline of the cells  have ink but the centre of the cell is missing ink.

The bottom line is that post-production either the ink is removed by using chemicals or by abrasion. In either case the overlying varnish will have to be noticeable impacted (particular for such a larger area of missing ink).

The likelihood of the underlying ink and/or the surface being affected is also very high particularly if abrasion is used.

If anyone can create this condition on a polymer banknote without affecting the varnish and without affecting the underlying ink and still keeping the note in a UNC condition I would request them to put the note up for sale on the trading post. For a $5 denomination polymer note I am willing to pay a premium.

Although my reply talks to some of the technical aspects, I somehow gather that the original post has raised a very important aspect about who they believe has put up the note for sale and the provenance of that note. CPMF is a well regarded forum and if it is true that long standing members of CPMF are closely associated with such ebay listings then it only makes sense for them to address point 5 in the original post. Otherwise IMHO CPMF loses credibility.

Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
Rupiah
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« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2016, 01:13:27 am »

Here is a very sure sign that the missing intaglio is post-production.

In my last reply I mentioned bleed of the lithographic print around the portrait. However there is no such bleed around the Intaglio counter "5". Meaning under the intaglio "5" there is full coverage of the lithographic print. Anyone can verify this by looking a banknote through a loupe. I will not get into the reason for this difference but it has something to do with design of banknotes.

I have cropped the note from e-bay around the area where the counter  and magnified it in the image below. Although the resolution is poor because of the original resolution of the image it is very noticeable that along with the missing intaglio of the counter the underlying lithographic ink has also been affected. (Click on the thumbnail to magnify)




Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
Rupiah
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« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2016, 10:18:42 pm »

Same note - same dealer - New listing

eBay item number:182301892996

HBY6464400

I must say this is a buyer beware situation. There is nothing in the listing that would suggest that there is misrepresentation.

It says that it is missing design. But how that design is missing is not mentioned. So there is no claim that this is an error note.

Well if somebody wants to pay money for a nicely removed intaglio on a UNC note then why not :-)

Cheap money chasing pricey bank notes !

Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
Seth
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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2016, 09:37:34 am »

Same note - same dealer - New listing

eBay item number:182301892996

Gone already.

Track your Canadian currency online!

http://www.whereswilly.com
Rupiah
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« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2016, 12:06:21 am »

Gone already.

Search for the listing 182301892996

Then check the sold checkbox. The best offer has been accepted. The following link should take you to that

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=182301892996&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684

Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
Rupiah
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« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2016, 12:11:38 am »

Gone already.

I truly admire in the ingenuity of the seller. Even if the best offer was $5 there is $18 in shipping. Or if the person buying it returns it then there is 10% restocking fee plus the premium on shipping.

Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
AZ
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« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2016, 07:40:28 am »

I truly admire in the ingenuity of the seller. Even if the best offer was $5 there is $18 in shipping. Or if the person buying it returns it then there is 10% restocking fee plus the premium on shipping.

The note sold for $400. Here is how to find best offer price:
http://ebaysellingcoach.blogspot.ca/2015/03/how-to-find-price-ebay-item-sold-on.html
Manada
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« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2016, 03:22:53 pm »

Several offers of clarifying this issue have been made, with no one taking responsibility. If this seller is a member of CPMF, I'd like to know who this scumbag is.

But always, there remained the discipline of steel. - Conan the Barbarian
canada-banknotes
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2016, 09:38:14 pm »

The note sold for $400. Here is how to find best offer price:
http://ebaysellingcoach.blogspot.ca/2015/03/how-to-find-price-ebay-item-sold-on.html

And it has resurfaced again from a different eBay seller at more than double the original selling price.  Same serial number HBY 6464400.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=282208737180

"There's a sucker born every minute"  (P. T. Barnum ?)



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copperpete
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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2016, 05:59:06 pm »

The page has this message:

"This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available."

 The sale was ended at 12:29:45. 



 

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