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Topic: For how long can 2 fundamentally different grading systems be maintained?  (Read 10717 times)
Ottawa
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It's well known that the "official" grading standards described in the Charlton catalogues are quite rigid and on the conservative side. I have no problems at all with this except that the US grading companies and the major US auction companies do not follow these same conservative standards. This is a major concern because so much high-grade Canadian paper money is being sold by US companies and on eBay these days. In this regard, I have observed from personal experience at the Nuphilex and RCNA shows that BCS-graded material is one of the "hottest" commodities because these notes are often purchased by dealers who then remove the notes and send them to PMG or PCGS in the quest for a higher (and often much higher) grade. I recently did this myself and included a $100 1937 BCS-graded note together with 50 or so foreign notes that I recently sent to PMG. The results are very elucidating:

BCS graded the note (B/J 2046060) as "Almost UNC 58 Original".

PMG graded the same note (B/J 2046060) as "Choice Uncirculated 64 EPQ".

My personal feeling is that it is no longer tenable for two distinctly different grading systems to exist within the North American marketplace. The Canadian system will never be widely accepted in the US even though high-grade Canadian notes will continue to be sold at major US auctions and shows. I personally feel that the sooner the Canadian and US grading systems begin to merge the better it will be. It's an example of "If you can't beat 'em then join 'em".

I will endeavour to post an image showing the BCS and PMG opinions described above.



" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
Ottawa
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" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
Rupiah
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It's well known that the "official" grading standards described in the Charlton catalogues are quite rigid and on the conservative side. I have no problems at all with this except that the US grading companies and the major US auction companies do not follow these same conservative standards.

My personal feeling is that it is no longer tenable for two distinctly different grading systems to exist within the North American marketplace. The Canadian system will never be widely accepted in the US even though high-grade Canadian notes will continue to be sold at major US auctions and shows. I personally feel that the sooner the Canadian and US grading systems begin to merge the better it will be. It's an example of "If you can't beat 'em then join 'em".

I must be missing something here. If the prices in Charlton catalogues are based on their grading standard and now we are asking the grading standard be changed should that not reflect a corresponding change in pricing in the catalogue. I am new to this type of marketplace but I thought the whole purpose of the catalogue was at the end be some sort of value guide. The pricing panel comprises the major contributors to the GPMC.

So if the price of Choice UNC in GPMC is based on their level of grading, one would hope that someone calling UNC by GPMC Standards as Choice UNC should still only afford the UNC level of pricing.

Maybe I am too naive  ???

Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
Weeles
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The only thing I can ask you after reading this post is, Would you buy a note just by the third party grading?

 What I seem to find with a lot of the dealers at shows is they have the same notes graded by an American third party grader show after show, which in my opinion means that they are not selling them very often. The best thing to do is get a mentor that understands how to grade and teach you how to grade your own notes before you buy them.  If the note is graded by a professional grading company DOES NOT mean thats what grade the note actually reaches. Sometimes they are right on , sometimes they are way off.

 When dealing with a cheaper note for your collection its makes a difference but you won't lose a pot full of money, although this would not be the case for a rarer note that a single jump in grade could run you up a few thousand extra.

 I was lucky and became friends with a very experienced collector that showed me how to grade my own notes, I even make mistakes but can do quite well in most cases  ;D. I have had sent notes to BCS to have them graded but it was not to get a grade assigned to them per say but to get them into sealed protected sleeves that the note would have a hard time being damaged when I have them at home.

So my main advice to any collector to protect your investment is Learn How To Grade and don't get taken from a note in a sleeve that someone else has thrown their opinion of whats inside.

Been collecting few bills for about 15 years but now getting into more serious collecting.

Ottawa
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The Charlton catalogue states unambiguously that their prices relate specifically to their published grading standards. No problem there, obviously. The problem, and it's a significant one, is that at auctions (both US and Canadian), at shows and on eBay, PMG and PCGS graded notes are offered or are estimated at prices based on the prices appearing in the Charlton catalogue for the same nominal grade.

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
Rupiah
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The Charlton catalogue states unambiguously that their prices relate specifically to their published grading standards. No problem there, obviously. The problem, and it's a significant one, is that at auctions (both US and Canadian), at shows and on eBay, PMG and PCGS graded notes are offered or are estimated at prices based on the prices appearing in the Charlton catalogue for the same nominal grade.

So notes are selling more than they are worth or at least more than the pricing panel of GPMC determines them to be worth.

So now lets say that the GPMC changes their grading to the standard of PCGS would it not follow that their pricing would go down?

But then if their pricing is based on realized pricing - oh well too darn complicated :(

Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
Ottawa
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If you're buying a TPG note in person then there shouldn't be a problem, assuming of course that the buyer knows how to grade. However, buying a graded note "sight unseen" from an online auction or price list is another matter entirely. We ourselves know that Canadian grading standards are more conservative than US grading standards but not all online buyers know that. American buyers know and understand PMG and PCGS grading standards but they do not, generally speaking, understand Canadian TPG standards.

Generally speaking, PMG and PCGS graded notes will sell for higher prices on eBay and at US auctions than BCS and CCCS graded notes that have the same nominal grade, even though in reality the BCS and CCCS graded notes are worth intrinsically more.

At the end of the day, human nature being what it is, I feel that many (most?) collectors would rather have their note graded as an UNC-64 than as an AU-58!

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
walktothewater
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The Charlton catalogue states unambiguously that their prices relate specifically to their published grading standards. No problem there, obviously. The problem, and it's a significant one, is that at auctions (both US and Canadian), at shows and on eBay, PMG and PCGS graded notes are offered or are estimated at prices based on the prices appearing in the Charlton catalogue for the same nominal grade.

I agree there is a problem and one that most dealers seem unwilling to admit. The double-standard means that many dealers are "offering" to sell the rarer notes (1935-37) rarer stock at the same price as what is seen in Charlton BUT in US dollars!  Its incredible, and to me, just like a scam.  I've seen several notes listed for a year (or longer) and no takers b/c their "Buy it Now" list price is 30-35% higher than it should be (since Charlton is NOT listed in US$) And I've made extremely reasonable offers online to CDN dealers (@ CDN$ /catalogue prices) and have been either rejected on the bases that the price is not high enough, or received emails with similar insulting notes like ("profit margins are not high enough to sell at this price").  Extremely frustrating (to say the least) & enough to turn me off on my most cherished hobby.

walktothewater
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So notes are selling more than they are worth or at least more than the pricing panel of GPMC determines them to be worth.

-Yes, I would agree with this statement in terms of older notes (1954 & prior).  At least, that has been my observation on the recent online auctions for 1st & 2nd series graded BOC notes (regardless of the 3rd party grader). 

HOWEVER, typically BCS will often yield the highest prices since everyone knows they're the truest standard for a CDN accurately graded note. 

And personally, I have some reservations for PCGS graded notes just based on my own personal observations (whereas I have no reservations for BCS notes).

Ottawa
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The November 2016 TOREX auction catalogue is now online:

http://cnc.forwardsim.com/auction/24/november-2016-torex-auction

There are several hundred third-party graded Canadian notes on offer, the vast majority (85-90%?) of those being graded according to American grading standards by the American third-party grading companies PMG and PCGS. Only a handful of notes (10-15%?) were graded according to Canadian (Charlton) grading standards by Canadian third-party grading companies. Thus, in an admittedly rough count, I noticed 7 graded by BCS, 8 by CCCS, 14 by CCGS and 3 by GWC, although I probably missed a few others.

Similar statistics to those presented above apply to the third-party graded Canadian notes offered by other leading Canadian auction companies and by the leading Canadian paper money dealers.

The practical inferences and future implications of the above observations seem to be pretty clear to me .....

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
 

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