NO NEW REPLACEMENTS - CPMS Journal - September 2017

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

I just read my copy of the Canadian Paper Money Society Journal - September 2017.

I read something which I believe may be historic in the Canadian Paper Money collecting circles:

The  use  of  replacement  notes  has  come  to  an  end.  There  are  NO  NEW REPLACEMENTS!  The  use of  insert replacement notes terminated a few years ago. There are no longer new ranges turning up, even in bricks of notes that have been stockpiled for a while.

-Pomerleau, Gilles, "Bank of Canada Note Series Update", Canadian Paper Money Society Journal, Volume 53, Number 154, September 2017, p97.

Given the above and given that the bundles (and therefore the bricks) do not necessarily have any predictable special numbers like before, I am wondering if the craft of "bricking" will be less motivating then before and may come to an end.

If it does, I am beginning to wonder if the value of special notes and also difficult to find prefixes and good conditions will go up.

I am wondering if the craft of "bricking" will be less motivating then before and may come to an end.

I have been bricking since the 80's long before I was ever aware of insert or replacement notes
My goal at that time was finding unique serial numbers and error notes
Obviously as time passed my search included replacements but it was never my only priority
I think bricking always was somewhat like gambling to me
You win some you lose some and the cost of a brick when it was originally zero to what it costs me now which is $15 is the price I pay to take a chance
Unless you have bricked you probably don't understand how addicting it can actually get
Every time you open that bag it's a surprise
Finding those #1 notes , those solid 8's, million notes, errors , or rare replacements
It's a rush and it's legal
Personally I think I will brick till the day I die unless new rules make it impossible to do so which Fintrac has already
Made it extremely difficult for some
Anyways only my input
Friedsquid

Personally I think I will brick till ----
Anyways only my input

Thx for your thoughts.

I don't know how far this is true but I have heard through the grapevine that the man who kept the inserts alive has thrown in the towel with respect to bricking. This is indeed historic.

I don't know if anyone will be able to replace him to be able to provide notes by prefixes and special numbers  to collectors at large.

I have heard through the grapevine that the man who kept the inserts alive has thrown in the towel with respect to bricking.

You may not be aware of this but long  before you were on the forum
There were many brickers that bricked much more than Gilles in quantity and frequency I being one of them
Unfortunately those of higher power decided putting bricking information on the forum which was once allowed and encouraged took a turn to be controlled by a select few and was no longer permitted
Unfortunately in my opinion and some others it in many ways destroyed the enthusiasm among collectors
In this respect a situation was created where some refused to provide information that was not made available to all until it was determined to be fact or atleast in their eyes
One must remember and I can assure you that there are other brickers out there that have found replacements that have and will never be confirmed do to certain policies put in place
As for collectors not being able to get notes is a little premature as many of us still bricking which I can say there are still a few of us that deal in our own circles and many forum members will know who we are and can confirm that I as well as others have provided them with many notes in the past and still to this date
It is never one person who dominates a hobby although some like to put one in the limelight
I would love to hear comments from others unless of course this post is removed
The forum was much more active in the days information from brickers was shared on almost a daily basis
In fact in my opinion when the change was made it started to create a monopoly on who had first rights to sell replacements as the general public would not get confirmed replacement information for months
Once again I encourage feedback from those that were on the forum during these times of activity and voice their thoughts and opinions

I don't know if anyone will be able to replace him to be able to provide notes by prefixes and special numbers  to collectors at large.

I can assure you that there are many out there that still can provide notes by prefix, special numbers, and other collectible notes....If replacements no longer exist collectors will always find other things that interest them in this vast hobby

He was one person out of many that sell to collectors ....why turn this into something bigger than it is...

FRIEDSQUID

Quote from Fried Squid

"You may not be aware of this but long  before you were on the forum
There were many brickers that bricked much more than Gilles in quantity and frequency I being one of them
Unfortunately those of higher power decided putting bricking information on the forum which was once allowed and encouraged took a turn to be controlled by a select few and was no longer permitted
"Unfortunately in my opinion and some others it in many ways destroyed the enthusiasm among collectors
In this respect a situation was created where some refused to provide information that was not made available to all until it was determined to be fact or atleast in their eyes
One must remember and I can assure you that there are other brickers out there that have found replacements that have and will never be confirmed do to certain policies put in place
As for collectors not being able to get notes is a little premature as many of us still bricking which I can say there are still a few of us that deal in our own circles and many forum members will know who we are and can confirm that I as well as others have provided them with many notes in the past and still to this date
It is never one person who dominates a hobby although some like to put one in the limelight
I would love to hear comments from others unless of course this post is removed
The forum was much more active in the days information from brickers was shared on almost a daily basis
In fact in my opinion when the change was made it started to create a monopoly on who had first rights to sell replacements as the general public would not get confirmed replacement information for months
Once again I encourage feedback from those that were on the forum during these times of activity and voice their thoughts and opinions"







Hello Members
I am one of the people who were known as "bricker".  I have been bricking consistently for over a decade and have seen many changes .  Fried Squid is correct that it was more when information was able to be discussed on the forum.  This allowed for common banter among people and in my eyes developed a healthy hobby.  Yes when the decision to change  how replacement/inserts information  only through one channel or list, it quieted down the forum. 

I am still actively bricking now and yes alot of the other members that are talking about difficulty in gettng "virgin bricks" are very difficult as well as expensive.  It does not really pay for itself but i initially began bricking looking for my daughters birthday. That was over a dozen years ago.  STILL LOOKING!!! to this day.  With selling a few item  if it be specialty number, replacements, etc  brick allowed me to continue bricking without taking a hit financially. 

Gilles who I have known many years through relaying my finding of bricking is retiring.  That is too bad as he was a wealth of knowledge.  I have over the years had some  replacements confirmed and many not.  Another member can explain how replacements were confirmed.   Since polymer has come out, my finding in regards  to replacement and inserts has been slim to say the least.   I have actually purchased  notes from other brickers.

This hobby has given me many new friend.  It is a great hobby.  I wish for the days when information was shared  more frequently and to the members. 

cheers

Polarbear
 

I guess that all good things come to an end. I never thought that replacements would stop being found, as said this is truly historic.

Replacements have always been controversial particularly with "unidentifiable replacements" beginning with the bird series. I started bricking in the Journey series and for many years I went threw 8-12 bricks per week. It really was exciting and I had no issues regarding their authenticity. I made many new collecting friends which helped with building my own collection. Eventually  I got cut off so I took some time off and eventually started up again, this time with the Frontier series and what a change that was. Fees were threw the roof, replacements were anemic and what used to take 15 mins to go threw a brick now took 1 hour. Anyways I found that with the Frontier series nobody really cared  about replacements anymore. Eventually the fees and time got to be too much to warrant continuing and so I stopped as well.

This really is another terrible blow to the hobby of collecting paper money. The hobby unfortunately is in terrible shape and I still believe that the worst is yet to come. Most are boomers, all wanting to sell at the same time and younger collectors are no where to be found. The catalogue has proven to be nothing more than a fictional and delusional interpretation of prices and we all know it. The main focus has been to sucker a new collector into high prices and lose him for ever rather that honestly print true lower prices and have a collector for life.

Personally I will continue my replacement collection and now that no new replacements will be added makes having 1 of each know replacement that much more possible but now 10 cents on the dollar might be the new going rate.

MG

I read something which I believe may be historic in the Canadian Paper Money collecting circles:

  That is quite interesting and certainly a big development.  I believe this is the first time ever that there hasn’t been any replacement notes used for Bank of Canada banknotes.  I wonder if the Single Note Inspection process that Rupiah has talked about in the past had anything to do with the insert replacement note’s demise…

Another member can explain how replacements were confirmed.

  I would be very interested in hearing specifically what the process is.  I've never searched bricks myself so that might explain why I haven't put a lot of effort to find the process but I think it should be something that is easily available to all collectors whether they collect insert notes or search bricks or not.  I'm actually quite surprised that the Charlton Catalogue doesn't go into detail about this process.  Being more open about the process could also potentially get more collectors interested in the notes themselves.

You may not be aware of this but long  before you were on the forum
There were many brickers that bricked much more than Gilles in quantity and frequency I being one of them

-----

The forum was much more active in the days information from brickers was shared on almost a daily basis

That's good to know. I have not gone back to see old posts but I have considered examining this thing and perhaps writing an article from the point of view of an outside observer.

I can assure you that there are many out there that still can provide notes by prefix, special numbers, and other collectible notes....If replacements no longer exist collectors will always find other things that interest them in this vast hobby

I think that should be good for the collectors. I have talked to a few collectors who collect by prefixes and they did give me a names of a couple of people in the business who had regular supply with Gilles being one of them.

This hobby has given me many new friend.  It is a great hobby.  I wish for the days when information was shared  more frequently and to the members. 

cheers

Polarbear
 

I think you hit the nail on the head. Information sharing is very important. As many might know I write articles about bank note design. They have appeared in CPMS Journal, the Coin News and the RCNA Journal. I provide my contact information and people have contacted me to give me feedback on my articles. I actually share my articles with many of the bank staff I deal with who often get excited to learn things about our own bank notes.

A few months ago I was doing some research and searching the older posts on this forum. I came across a post of interest which originally seemed to have included photographs that were no longer in the post. I contacted the member who had made the post.

I was rather surprised with that this member was no longer willing to share because their efforts in the past were not being reciprocated. I felt rather sad that this time of information could not be shared more widely.

This really is another terrible blow to the hobby of collecting paper money. The hobby unfortunately is in terrible shape and I still believe that the worst is yet to come. Most are boomers, all wanting to sell at the same time and younger collectors are no where to be found.

Maybe this is the natural ebb and flow. I wonder if the new Bank of Canada Museum and the wide release and publicity of the commemorative ntoes will make any difference. I personally know that there are a lot of arm chair collectors. I run into them when I tell people about my interests in bank notes.

The catalogue has proven to be nothing more than a fictional and delusional interpretation of prices and we all know it. The main focus has been to sucker a new collector into high prices and lose him for ever rather that honestly print true lower prices and have a collector for life.

This is a rather interesting comment which I thought only I believed in. The disconnect between reality and the prices - particular that of modern replacements - was unbelievable. I remember finding some sheet replacement notes that were in the catalog and offered them to a dealer with whom I had some business dealings. They simply told me that they were not interested in them but would gladly take it at face value. This experience was repeated a few times and with a few other dealers.

I do understand market forces (at least I think so). The message was clear. There was no money to be made on these things particularly at the prices listed in the catalog.

To this date I do not understand how the market conditions are factored into the pricing of these things in the catalog.

And yet there are things which I feel would be of great interest to collectors which the catalog has no room to consider (of course I see the rationale for the catalog in doing so and I am also seeing this as an opportunity to have an alternative catalog - just not gotten around to it)

Now that new replacements notes will no longer be part of collecting this forum will have even less to talk about. Replacements have had their fair share of very passionate collectors as well has had their fair share of skeptics but you could always count on replacements to gather a lot of chatter and heated discussions, and now this will be gone.


For those who are newer to the hobby the older forum posts are very well worth exploring and with a little effort you can see who was bricking and also get a sense of what people were talking about.

Much of the sharing of information changed when a few key changes were made. The first was that a small group of people had selected themselves as the only authority for confirming replacement notes. The irony was that most didn't even brick themselves. Not only is their info about this on the forum but it was also published in the CPMS (yes, small world) secondly the info was to now be collected through the forum and no one was allowed access to this info except for them. The process was sold this way, give us non brickers all your info, nobody has access to any of the info, if you do want access please submit a request stating your research idea and if we believe your research worthy we will then grant you limited access. The assumption at the time was that most didn’t have the skills or knowledge needed to make any worthy contributions to the hobby. I strongly felt that this information should be accessed and available to everybody but my opinion was not one that was shared. At this point I did the only thing I could do to protest, the first was that I stopped sharing the vast majority of my info, I even told Gilles that he wouldn’t be hearing from me on a weekly basis anymore and only occasionally. Secondly, I deleted hundreds of my posts from the forum. I will only share if we all shared openly. After this a lot of the bricking info ended up in notebooks and spreadsheets for ourselves and no one else. Anybody who has bricked knows the challenges with doing so very well then you add attacks over finds and being told you can’t access the info you helped supply was a terribly played hand that greatly hurt the hobby. I personally have thousands of bricking info that have never been shared and I am hardly the only one. But again, with the good and bad there was excitement and enthusiasm about replacements.

Could this be a deliberate attempt to help the mint push sales of their perfectly stamped and endless variations of mass produced coins?   

As for the Charlton catalogue. Over time it has grown to nothing more than a relic of the past lacking creativity. Since we will no longer have new replacements added yearly their really in no reason to go out and buy the book every year. I suspect that in time the book will not be profitable enough to warrant being published. Then perhaps we could have a new start and one that truly reflects actual prices without obvious conflicts of interest.

MG

Anybody who has bricked knows the challenges with doing so very well then you add attacks over finds and being told you can’t access the info you helped supply was a terribly played hand that greatly hurt the hobby.

I strongly agree with what you have said and my biggest concern has always been (and I know many other brickers have voiced this concern to me) that confirmations of replacement notes made by an individual who bricks and sells replacement notes is a total conflict of interest no matter how you look at it and I could never understand how this was allowed to go on with no accountability or transparency
General information is sometimes given but specifics never are so how can the average Joe make an informed decision based on bits and pieces of data...

I was rather surprised with that this member was no longer willing to share because their efforts in the past were not being reciprocated. I felt rather sad that this time of information could not be shared more widely.

It doesn't surprise me at all... I always provided any information with specific details of my brick finds on the forum until it was no longer permitted
I found this was a great way to get other brickers and collectors more information right at the time instead of being in the dark for weeks or months once I could no longer do this.
As mentioned by another member the forum was more active and new finds always seemed to raise interest and chatter. In fact many good friends I have made was because of this interaction on this forum....It was a great loss when a select few decided to end this....

Much of the sharing of information changed when a few key changes were made. The first was that a small group of people had selected themselves as the only authority for confirming replacement notes. The irony was that most didn't even brick themselves. Not only is their info about this on the forum but it was also published in the CPMS (yes, small world) secondly the info was to now be collected through the forum and no one was allowed access to this info except for them. The process was sold this way, give us non brickers all your info, nobody has access to any of the info, if you do want access please submit a request stating your research idea and if we believe your research worthy we will then grant you limited access. The assumption at the time was that most didn’t have the skills or knowledge needed to make any worthy contributions to the hobby. I strongly felt that this information should be accessed and available to everybody but my opinion was not one that was shared. At this point I did the only thing I could do to protest, the first was that I stopped sharing the vast majority of my info, I even told Gilles that he wouldn’t be hearing from me on a weekly basis anymore and only occasionally. Secondly, I deleted hundreds of my posts from the forum. I will only share if we all shared openly. After this a lot of the bricking info ended up in notebooks and spreadsheets for ourselves and no one else. Anybody who has bricked knows the challenges with doing so very well then you add attacks over finds and being told you can’t access the info you helped supply was a terribly played hand that greatly hurt the hobby. I personally have thousands of bricking info that have never been shared and I am hardly the only one. But again, with the good and bad there was excitement and enthusiasm about replacements.

  I totally understand the feeling one gets when they make contributions or share information for research and then don't even get to see the data.  Not to throw this thread off topic but there seems to be a parallel with the SNDB where a lot of us forum members add our notes to it yet the majority of us aren't allowed to see the data...

 

I strongly agree with what you have said and my biggest concern has always been (and I know many other brickers have voiced this concern to me) that confirmations of replacement notes made by an individual who bricks and sells replacement notes is a total conflict of interest no matter how you look at it and I could never understand how this was allowed to go on with no accountability or transparency
General information is sometimes given but specifics never are so how can the average Joe make an informed decision based on bits and pieces of data...

  Transparency would definitely go a long way in making the issue of insert replacement notes less of a controversial issue in collector's circles.  Not only that it could also bring in more collectors of inserts.  Keeping information hidden only creates doubt in the collectors' minds and even destroys the motivation of others to take part or share their findings with others as has been mentioned here already.  From what others who were on this forum long before I was have said in this thread, it sounds like it was a healthy collector atmosphere. 

Transparency would definitely go a long way in making the issue of insert replacement notes less of a controversial issue in collector's circles.

While I can understand (& somewhat relate) to the sentiment of what the most recent posters are complaining about (the "inner circle" contribution/access to insert data) in reality the SNDB (& this forum) has, in my mind, maintained this data & has strived to keep the whole tracking of inserts as transparent as possible.  At least from what I can tell, and I have known many of the dedicated collectors who have contributed data, the whole exercise was to limit extraneous (and likely incorrect data) from messing up the good data that these contributors were searching for.  I witnessed discussions of this sort at one of the Canadian Paper Money Society's meetings several years ago when the transition to unmarked inserts was a hot topic.

I have been collecting for 40 years and I have met many of the data collectors and I have had my data dismissed but I honestly don't feel any grudge to these dedicated individuals who tirelessly collected the data to keep the insert info up to date and available.  Many members have offered lists of up-to-date insert ranges and many have written enlightening articles on the process of insert data collection.  Also the administrator of this forum has extended many invitations for collectors to "step up to the plate" and contribute (or help moderate this forum). So if you stepped up to the plate: great. If you ignored the invitation: than you know who you are- and please don't complain. The hobby is still great! LOL

The reason I'm replying to this post is:
a) Yes, it is historical that insert replacements are now a thing of the past
b) IMO: it may be a bump in the road for insert replacement collectors but I doubt it will change the landscape of collecting Canadian paper money on the whole that much. A previous poster noted it is a vast hobby (true) and I'm sure collectors will find many reasons to keep collecting
c) the market place (for selling notes) is a way off topic in terms of this thread.  Yes- it fluctuates too and most of us don't have a Masters of Economics and don't quite grasp the many variables that will affect it
d) the catalogue value is just a guide and if you're not getting catalogue for your inserts than just stop selling them! No one is forcing you to dump your inserts because they're no longer being issued by BOC. The catalogue is a very useful guide and it doesn't just help us understand the insert ranges/expected price ranges, but offers a vast array of pertinent info on many of the other collectible notes that were issued here over the past 2 centuries.

Now back to the original question: will the lack of inserts affect the number of brick searchers?  Probably, but then again there are many other factors that can also affect "Bricking" as noted by several posters here (costs, time consuming, etc). I searched a few bricks about 15 years ago when it didn't seem that odd to ask tellers for a brick of any 1 particular denomination.  Later, my branches seemed to think I was asking them to sleep overnight in their vaults -so I "toned it down a notch" and just asked for bundles.  Still it seems to be asking for a lot so how long that will last will depend on many more factors than whether there are inserts or not.

When the BOC announced they were releasing a new polymer series: I swore I would never give them a second look.  Yet here I am, still searching for a special number, change-over & collecting them with as much enthusiasm as the good ol paper.

 

  I don't have anything against anyone who runs the processes currently in place.  I can understand moving to a system that is more centralized and controlled in order to ensure that the data inputted is legitimate and not someone trying to make a mess of things.  There is a reason you have to have an account to enter notes in the SNDB.

  But like others have expressed now and in the past the system isn't perfect.  Nothing is ever perfect but its always good to strive for improvement.

  One thing I suggested in an earlier reply was that the process used to authenticate insert note ranges should have a section in the Charlton Catalogue.  Whether people like the catalogue or not it is the book for Canadian government banknotes.  A lot of collectors get this book shortly after they start collecting and I feel like a detailed explanation could go a long way in clearing up any confusion or doubts expressed.  I remember when I first started collecting and the whole concept of insert notes seemed strange to me.  I had only known the X and * notes as being replacements.  I'm sure a lot of collectors feel the same when they start out seeing as how inserts really are just random regular notes with ordinary prefixes and serial numbers that were used as replacements.

  I guess I'm speaking for the beginner and more casual collectors of paper money who may not be as invested and devoted as other collectors but nonetheless share the same passion for this hobby.

I welcome this change. The end of identifiable replacement notes (* or X) finished it for me. I never bought in to the "insert" notes thing, believing the reporting system "by reputable researchers" to be bogus and prone to errors and/or abuse.

I don't mean to knock any particular person who participated in this system, in fact I thank all of those who did participate, for the sake of the insert note collectors out there. It is the system itself I had a problem with. I'm glad it's gone.

I must be missing something re: the topic of transparency because that whole CPMF & SNDB were set up to substantially improve transparency.  When "brickers" first discovered insert replacements it was just verified by other "brickers" collectors & those doing the research.  Bricks & bundles can get mixed up, but more importantly, the notes will come out into bank machines and be shuffled.  Many collectors would take out large amounts of cash and assume (because the notes were mostly in consecutive order) that these notes were just like they were when they were released in bricks (untrue).  So: that was the intent to keep the info tight/the stats needed to be verified by other collectors.  That's all there was to it & this has been covered in much older threads here on the CPMF. This info was also covered in your Charlton guide.

Now, for as long as I can remember, collectors have been either "hot," "luke warm" or "cold" when it comes to collecting insert replacements (I know many long-time collectors who shun designated "X" or asterisk replacements!)  So that is why I wrote (IMO) that now the era of replacements is over- that collecting them (& their popularity) may be in for a "bumpy road."  But this could be temporary.  It is also very possible that a new generation of collectors will be very keen on keeping these notes (no longer produced could mean they're more valuable). They may be very keen on the polymer (as a first of its kind in Canada).  Only time will tell. And these are trends that can affect market value.

I think the one thing we are forgetting in this thread are the other implications.  As BWJM noted in another thread on # of notes printed vs # of notes released (in terms of the "150" ten & Jubilee $20 "spoilage" and what was released by BOC) we seem to have unprecedented transparency from BOC.  And we also have other phenomenon occurring in terms of # of notes released.  So, short prefixes ($20 BSW) and change-overs ($10 M/C FTH) may have had much smaller releases than the data suggests.  This is not entirely new but there does seem to be a few surprises yet in terms of what could be the next rare note.