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Topic: **NEW NOTES appearing out of sequential order**  (Read 13123 times)
Hudson A B
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« on: March 14, 2005, 08:38:12 pm »

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« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 02:15:37 am by Hudson A B »

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BWJM
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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2005, 08:55:16 pm »

My theory is this:
They're doing what they did way back before the 1954 series came out: Replacing damaged sheets with sheets bearing the same numbers.

When a sheet gets damaged, they pull it, number a blank sheet with the numbers of the sheet that was pulled, and put this new sheet between the top two sheets (the insert position, between 000/001, and 500/501).

Several members will agree that the Bank of Canada has been trying for years to get us collectors to mind our own business and get off the idea of replacements, inserts, brick hunting, etc. The asterisks were too identifiable, so they tried X notes. That plan had roughly similar success. So they moved to insert notes in the Bonin/Thiessen era. This threw us off for a bit, but once collectors picked up the scent again, the battle renewed itself with even greater intensity as the hunt for inserts continued. Now in what I expect is rather costly for them, they seem to be replacing damaged sheets with sheets bearing the numbers of the damaged sheets. This means no identifiable replacement or insert notes PERIOD. Every number in a run gets issued unless there is a broad gap in production, as can be assumed from several examples we now know about.

The suggestion that these are Quality Control Inspection Notes doesn't fly with me.  Why are they all of a sudden doing this when they've been making banknotes for over a century?

If I am right in my theory, this will eliminate the "A" designation on all further Charlton numbers for Canadian government bank notes, and it will mark the end of an era for one of Tom's sweet tooths.

BWJM, F.O.N.A.
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sudzee
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2005, 11:03:57 pm »

I'm hoping someone will get a brick with both inspection notes and inserts. I think that would put the subject to rest.
Hudson A B
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2005, 11:39:40 pm »

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« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 02:15:30 am by Hudson A B »

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BWJM
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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2005, 12:02:30 am »

The numbers could very well be computer controlled, making them VERY easily settable. I agree this is a rather inefficient method of doing things, but the Bank of Canada HAS been trying to get us off the scent for years.

BWJM, F.O.N.A.
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JB-2007
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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2005, 03:15:30 am »

It would make collecting very boring if we no longer had identifyable replacement notes  >:(
BWJM
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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2005, 09:45:28 am »

That's exactly what the Bank has been trying to do with the inserts, but we managed to figure them out. So now they're backpedalling even more and going to even more drastic measures to get rid of us pesky collectors. ;D

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admin
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« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2005, 05:43:02 pm »

How about this theory:

Pressmen always pull out sheets from the end of the press to monitor the quality. In the past, this has not affected the numbering, as numbering was the last step in the process and it's easy enough to check without pulling sheets.

Now, it seems pretty clear, that there is at least one step after the numbering (UV ink for sure, maybe more). So, the pressmen are back to their old habits. They feed in numbered sheets, and pull out random sheets during the run.

I suspect that some one might be manually put them back in order, and not either they just don't bother, or someone goofed.
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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2005, 10:15:54 pm »

This sounds a lot like what they are doing to the CTC coupons, which are printed by banknote companies.   I posted information about hidden replacement on February 20th under the Canadian Tire topic.  My opinion is that the banknote companies don't want collectors collecting replacement notes.  The future will unfold and we may learn more.  Stinger.
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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2005, 05:26:43 pm »

Same phenomenon with

HOD0532xxx and HOD0534xxx

The notes 222, 388, 499 were between 000 and 001 from both bricks, with 722, 888, and 999 between 500 and 501.

Mike
BWJM
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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2005, 05:51:36 pm »

This is weird.

BWJM, F.O.N.A.
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Seth
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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2005, 06:16:55 pm »

Quote
Same phenomenon with

HOD0532xxx and HOD0534xxx

The notes 222, 388, 499 were between 000 and 001 from both bricks, with 722, 888, and 999 between 500 and 501.

Mike


This does sound very much like quality control procedures.  I once worked in a sheet metal fabricating plant where we made things like computer chassis, fluorescent light reflectors, appliance parts, etc.  It was common for us to fill an order of 1,000 of a single item.  Standard quality control procedure was to pull out the first, the 250th, the 500th, the 750th, and the last one for inspection, with two or three more selected from random spots.  They were measured for QC and set aside.  At the end of the run they were just thrown on the top of the completed pile.  This sounds exactly like what is happening with these notes.

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freedomschoice
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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2005, 06:35:26 pm »

I forget who said that the Bank od Canada is trying to get us collectors to forget or ignore insert or replacement notes. I have often wondered why collectors think the BOC cares what we think or do. Their mandate is the supply of money and the driving force behind our economic policy here and over seas. Do you honestly believe that our collecting habits make a difference upon their operations or become part of their considerations. The only time the bank steps in for monetary fiscal policy concerning the money supply per se, is when counterfieting becomes so rampant that they design a new series with up dated security features. That is because of  the percieved threat to the integrity of our money supply. So the bad guys are more a concern then us pesky collectors. Remember that the next time when you think the BOC is doing things to either help or hinder our collections. I personally believe as a collector, that we are very low on their totem pole of interests or concerns.

Martin
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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2005, 07:42:02 pm »

Quote
... I personally believe as a collector, that we are very low on their totem pole of interests or concerns.


That is exactly what I think also  ;)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2005, 07:42:29 pm by detonate »

moneycow
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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2005, 07:49:05 pm »

I 3rd that motion!
Hudson A B
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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2005, 07:49:46 pm »

...
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 02:15:18 am by Hudson A B »

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Seth
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« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2005, 08:06:14 pm »

Quote
I forget who said that the Bank od Canada is trying to get us collectors to forget or ignore insert or replacement notes. I have often wondered why collectors think the BOC cares what we think or do. .... I personally believe as a collector, that we are very low on their totem pole of interests or concerns.


Yes you are right, the BoC could probably care less about note collectors, but they do care very greatly when their clients (banks) complain about expenses and security.

Bank employees (non-collectors, at that) knew that replacement notes (easily identifiable by a * or later and X) were coveted by collectors, were opening bricks of notes, pulling them out, replacing them with notes from their pockets, and selling them to dealers.  This created a lot of extra expenses for the banks, which must then re-count entire bricks at their own expense after they've been opened and rummaged through to see that nothing was stolen.  And of course there are the inherent security risks when employees know that there's treasure buried in the bricks that could easily be exchanged for face value, even if it is againt official bank policy.

As more and more bank employees caught on that they could make easy money doing this, more of them did it, to the exasperation of management.

It is for these reasons (in addition to the ones that the BoC publicly claims) for the BoC to have discontinued identifiable replacement notes.  The only way collectors enter the picture is that they create the demand that fuels the scenario I mentioned above.

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coinsplus
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« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2005, 11:55:15 pm »

I quadruple the motion on freedomschoice comments.  ;D

  Smile from your heart.  ;D
Skylark
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2005, 11:26:17 pm »

Quote
we are very low on their totem pole of interests or concerns.
Not to be mean, ok, yes to be mean ;D but your totem pole quote has a problem.
Basically all the symbols on a totem are of equal importance and value. The ones at the bottom however are done by the master carver and given great attention and detail while the ones on the top are done by the apprentice who may have little skill.
I agree with every thing else though :)

I collect banknotes depicting Tallships. And to a lesser degree, all watercrafts.
Hudson A B
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« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2005, 05:27:19 am »

Bricks with the "QCIN" 's AND actual inserts have been found.

HOG $5's to be exact.

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Oli1001
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« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2005, 11:41:23 am »

Quote
How about this theory:

Pressmen always pull out sheets from the end of the press to monitor the quality. In the past, this has not affected the numbering, as numbering was the last step in the process and it's easy enough to check without pulling sheets.

Now, it seems pretty clear, that there is at least one step after the numbering (UV ink for sure, maybe more). So, the pressmen are back to their old habits. They feed in numbered sheets, and pull out random sheets during the run.

I suspect that some one might be manually put them back in order, and not either they just don't bother, or someone goofed.

I know this topic has been exhausted over 6 months ago.....but i have to bring it up again. I agree with the above quote becuase i order 1000 $5's today and only the last bundle was jumbled up with different serial numbers but all of the same family of prefixes.......so my guess it is just qualty control and not an insert.....and that the real inserts are the notes which are inserted a few at a time with different prefixes.........any new info since june? much appreciated
Hudson A B
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« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2005, 03:44:01 am »

The refining of the information seems to point to the following:
What we calling "insert notes" are the notes/sheets that are put in their respective place to replace spoiled notes/sheets.
This has been confirmed by the bank of Canada in that letter response to a member posing a question about this. (See Sudzee's website to see more about this) http://gwfedora.tripod.com/id15.html


However, it is important to understand that the QCIN's (Quality Control Inspection Notes) are still "inserted" into placement after analysis, but they are not there for the function of replacing spoiled notes/sheets.  Most of the time these "QCIN's" are of the same family as descibed in earlier posts.  We can conclude from this that the "QCIN's" are merely notes that have been taken out for analysis and inserted back into the brick.  They do not replace any notes that are damaged.
However, the inserts that are "replacements" do exactly that -they replace notes that are absent/have been removed.


For example in any given section of notes where there is a changing point (000, 500 in $10s or 000, 250, 500, 750 in the recent $5s) you may find a group of notes like this:

ABC1234000 - typical base note for a brick
ABC1234222 - QCIN (This is an insert that does not have a replacement function)
ABC1234399 - QCIN (This is an insert that does not have a replacement function)
ABC1234444 - QCIN (This is an insert that does not have a replacement function)
AXZ9999988 - Replacement (This is an insert that DOES have a replacement function)
AXZ9999989 - Replacement (This is an insert that DOES have a replacement function)
ABC1234001, 002, 003 etc...  - brick of notes continues.

I feel that it is very important that this issue be clarified like this.  There are already many people working across Canada searching through notes and reporting information to the appropriate people to ensure utmost accuracy in the published number ranges.  Additionally, this will ensure that the term "insert" is not tossed around inappropriately.  Like I said, there are many people out there working very hard on this to ensure accuracy and through this careful contribution and collboration we can compile the information properly.

This is also where the significance of position numbers comes in.  From the layout of a sheet, we can better determine startpoints and endpoints of replacement note ranges, with infomation based on what serial number ranges are found in a single sheet.  Also, for matching up congruent finds from numerous bricks that have the exact same pattern of notes.  For example if you had 4 bricks that came from the same sheet, each respective note would come from the same sheet.  That is, each sheet in the grand stack of 1000 (or 500, or even 250) would have four positions in which the verticle stacks would make up the bricks/sections.  Clear as mud right? Let me try that again:

ABC1234000
ABC1234222
AXY9994215
ABC1234001...

ABC1236000
ABC1236222
AXY9996215
ABC1236001...

These two "verticle stacks" would represent two separate coordinates of the full sheet.  So when a sheet is inserted as a replacement, the replacement notes will make it into each one of the brick comprising stacks.   Hopefully that makes better sense.  But anyway, by figuring out more about the front and back position numbers, it may assist in the replacement research as well.

All from me for now,
Happy New year, please be safe everyone.

Hudson

« Last Edit: December 31, 2005, 03:52:04 am by hudsonab »

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freedomschoice
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« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2005, 02:40:45 pm »

The first three notes Hudson you discuss in your message are really not inserts. They were pulled as inspection sheets. Just placed back out of order. As for the other notes, they are correctly named for what they are, inserts replacing notes because of quality and or errors. I have come across many of these inspection notes in bricks. Usually three in the top half and the same three in the bottom half also.

Hudson A B
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« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2006, 03:45:06 am »

I know what you are saying - they are not "inserts" in the way we use the word today.  
When we say insert, we are talking about the replacement notes, i.e; the 5th and 6th notes in the example.

You are correct, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th notes in the example are not "inserts" according to how we are all using the term insert.  And your right again, these notes hold no premium.

However, what I wanted to address in my response to the question from Oli1001 is that:
QCINs exist, and inserts (that are replacements) both exist.
It is just that the QCINotes after inspection have been physically re-inserted into their own brick family, thus nullifying any proposed premium for them.

Contrasting the QCINs are the notes that are inserted to replace missing/spoiled notes of the brick family.  These are what we commonly refer to as insert notes.  
And there is nothing wrong with the terminology as is, as long as everyone is clear about this:
QCINs: No additional value - not replacing spoiled note
"Insert" note: Yes additional value - yes replacing spoiled notes, and is akin to an Asterisk note or an X note.

The labelling of QCINs as a type of insert was brought to my attention by a member of the Charlton Panel (and is correct in my opinion if you look at what physically happens in the printing process - sheets being "inserted" into position).  But for the collecting community, as long as we know that when we are talking inserts we are referring to modern post-1996(?) replacement notes, then everything is perfectly fine.  That is why we have so many people devoting their time towards the confirmed insert (replacement) ranges.
As a contributor myself, and by knowing many others who contribute as well, plus the careful collaboration process, I know that the information is very solid.  

In a nutshell freedomschoice, we are on the same page. :)

Regards,
Hudson
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 03:47:11 am by hudsonab »

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« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2006, 02:47:16 am »

Hi There,

I am an new Brick Searcher. I have also noted these QCIN notes and have only had 1 "Replacement" note found in the last 3100 $5 Bills I searched.  :-/

Where can I report my finds in Bricks? I would like to contribute to the community. (Makes the Brick Searches more "Worth While" in the big picture... Ohhh the Hours and Hours and Hours or looking at the same bill....(Shiver).  :o

LOL!

Has anyone found any Error Notes in bricks lately? Seems like the QC seems to be getting much better!

Sorry Ladies...I am now a Married Man!!!
 

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