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Topic: A Threat to all Collections  (Read 1795 times)
Camelford
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« on: December 27, 2020, 10:25:11 am »

Hi - I am a long time member here (but not that active, and I come and go).  I buy and sell my notes as needed, mostly through Kijiji and Ebay.  I am starting to notice a wave of eBay sellers from overseas (most notably in Singapore) that have flooded ebay with "Reproductions" of notes (I've included a link below).  These aren't "novelties" notes of any kind, they're straight-up counterfeits.  They are starting to sell more than real notes, and the feedback from buyers is that the quality is quite good (the seller below has a 99.2% satisfaction rating).

Not only is this highly illegal, it undermines the confidence in the market for real notes (ie. your collection!).  I am going to write to ebay to stop this.  I can't believe that they are complicit in flooding the market with counterfeit notes!

I believe that further action should be taken though, and that there should be some sort of organized effort and united front to make sure that ebay stops this.  They are quickly filling the market with high grade copies of your collectibles and breaking the law for profit in the process.   


https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Canada-1-1000-Dollars-The-Devil-s-Face-Set-1954-P-66-P-73-REPRODUCE/254815015952?hash=item3b54289410:g:iyQAAOSwnNtfu78H
walktothewater
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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2020, 06:45:20 pm »

I agree & it is sad that eBay allows these sellers to continue.  Perhaps if someone has connections to law enforcement? I don't know - it might be legal -as long as they're labelling the listing "REPRODUCTION."  I've even seen posts of naive collectors buying the tougher ones (like Panama's short lived series). I blocked some joker who was advertising fake notes on Instagram.

As long as they're not selling notes from their own nation they probably can (& will) get away with it? I don't know but it is a threat to the hobby (esp if resold as legit notes) & I'm not too thrilled about these fantasy notes, Zero Euros & Disney dollars either (even though they're slightly more valid than copies/reproductions).

Camelford
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« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2020, 07:54:15 pm »

Agreed - I don't care if they have a picture of Mickey Mouse on a bill, but these are straight up high quality counterfeits (which just happens to be a felony).  They can call them "Reproductions", but I don't think we're dumb enough to just accept that changing the word means it's now OK to sell counterfeit notes!  I've called eBay and told them this is not just unethical and contrary to their own counterfeit policy, it's a crime.  I'm going to escalate more and will call the RCMP if needed.  Lots of people out there are about to make money by flooding the market with fakes and kill the value of our notes (like the legit sports memorabilia market was decimated).  I already see slowness in selling $1,000 notes as the fakes sell like hot cakes.
JB-2007
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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2020, 10:21:35 pm »

The thing that angers me the most is that they are trying to sell these pieces of photo copies for large profit. I believe the devils $1,000 was listed for $65US when its worth $0. Fortunately i don't think there were any buyers. Agreed with the other posts. Shame on e-bay!
AL-Bob
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« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2020, 02:01:46 pm »

I wonder what the quality is (would anyone be fooled by these?) and how these "ADHERE to eBay guidelines on reproduction banknotes".  It doesn't say in the description if they are one-sided or two-sided or the size of the print.

Someone might correct me if I'm wrong but I believe if it's either 50% larger or 33% smaller and one-sided it would be perfectly legal to sell without any additional markings or perforations.

I'm also very curious about where this person is obtaining their photos.  Some of the notes (Dominion, Chartered) appear to be in grades superior to what is available to collectors.

TBH, I wouldn't be too worried about this as long as they are not being sold as genuine.  I don't think anyone buying $15 reproductions is in the market for $30,000+ originals or would change their mind about buying an authentic note just because they happen to already have a print of one.

Just like I doubt that reproduction Rembrandts and Picassos reduce the values of the originals, this might actually be good for the market of rare, authentic banknotes.

Nevertheless, it's definitely something to think about if you are buying notes from some shady sellers.  Buyer beware.


AL-Bob(at)cdnpapermoney com
Camelford
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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2020, 06:00:27 pm »

I don't know the size but I suspect that they are 2-sided and the same size based on seller feedback.  They just call them reproductions rather than counterfeit and it's suddenly not a crime!  They are already having an impact as they are selling more than authentic notes at some denominations.  One seller from Singapore sells multiple Devil's Face sets per day. 

Once counterfeits run amok, it kills confidence in the legit market (there are only single Rembrandts and Picassos in museums, but hundreds of thousands of many of our notes that get bought and sold by the general public).  Like US confederate notes and sports memorabilia world, confidence (and thus values) plunge when the counterfeits start entering the market.  Plus, it's a crime and against ebay policy, but they seem fine to look the other way when it's the Government of Canada and not Apple or Nike.
AL-Bob
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« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2020, 07:39:57 pm »

If they are two-sided and normal sized, then yes, that is a big problem.  I haven't heard of anyone trying to pass off these kinds of counterfeits as authentic collectible notes, though.  I really hope that nobody buys these unwittingly.  I have no problem with people wanting to buy "reproductions" for personal use, provided they aren't breaking any laws.  It's another story altogether if they attempt to defraud others with them.

I don't think there is much you can do to stop this, though.  Pursuing legal action against the seller is hopeless.  The only people risking legal action are the buyers bringing them into Canada.  You might be able to get the seller banned from eBay but there are plenty of Chinese sites where they can sell this kind of merchandise.  These things will enter the market one way or another.  The best you can do is protect yourself by knowing what you're buying and who you're buying it from.


AL-Bob(at)cdnpapermoney com
walktothewater
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« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2021, 01:58:59 pm »

If they are two-sided and normal sized, then yes, that is a big problem.  I haven't heard of anyone trying to pass off these kinds of counterfeits as authentic collectible notes, though.  I really hope that nobody buys these unwittingly.  I have no problem with people wanting to buy "reproductions" for personal use, provided they aren't breaking any laws.  It's another story altogether if they attempt to defraud others with them.

I don't think there is much you can do to stop this, though.  Pursuing legal action against the seller is hopeless.  The only people risking legal action are the buyers bringing them into Canada.  You might be able to get the seller banned from eBay but there are plenty of Chinese sites where they can sell this kind of merchandise.  These things will enter the market one way or another.  The best you can do is protect yourself by knowing what you're buying and who you're buying it from.

I've heard that they're tough to distinguish (from the real banknote) & yes I believe they are a BIG problem. I just wish I could think of a better solution than simply trying to educate the younger generation (who seem the most willing to buy them).  Sadly, it's a more a means to an end with these new collectors who think posting their "rare" (ie: undisclosed fakes "left by grandma," etc) on social media (& impressing the followers) trumps buying the "real deal." And, of course, legit notes are usually out of their league. Its the only reason I can come up with (why they're being bought - in the 1st place).

And, it will most definitely have a very negative impact on collecting currency.  It's already corroding confidence amongst younger collectors. I have answered countless posts about whether an Iraqi 1 Dinar note is real (or fake) simply b/c already young people know that the FAKES out there & they're already losing confidence in the world market of banknotes.  (I patiently state in each reply that low, nearly worthless, denominations are not typically replicated- only rare or high denoms from countries like US, GB & Canada are the target of counterfeiters).

I've really enjoyed keeping my Notaphylic Culture website current (https://sites.google.com/view/notaphilycculture/collecting-banknotes) but the one drawback is learning how coin collectors have lost confidence over Chinese fakes & seeing these reproductions recently (along with Disney Dollars, Zero Euros and fantasy notes). They flood the legit currency collecting market & are a complete waste of album space. (Recently, I've learnt why young collectors are already losing confidence over world currency)

While the latter (Disney, 0 Euro, fantasy) are far less insidious, they still steal valuable currency away from truly "collectible banknotes."  All too often I see posts on social media (Reddit, FB, Instagram) of the worthless play money or legit world ragged banknotes (hyperinflation notes from East Asia) the what's it worth queries clearly demonstrating how little the young new collectors understand about what to collect.  Then, the youtube videos pushing the Zero Euros (& other fantasy 'junk').  First it was bitcoin now its this!  ::) Frustrating  :'(

I just looked through some of the sets of the crook selling these CDN counterfeits & what I'd like to know is where are they getting the designs from? They really look like scary good fakes to me. Wish the RCMP could get involved. Any suggestions? I just reported this seller. I hope others will follow suit.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2021, 02:20:10 pm by walktothewater »

 

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