US note grading

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This is not to cercumvent the non-ebay items. I have no comment on this seller or the grading of the note, It is to point out the grade, nothing more.

Anyone know this grading company?

This is a beautifully centered, bright $20 2004 Federal Reserve Note serial # EC00000004D, graded as Superb Gem CU 67 by CGA.  Single digit low serial numbered notes from this series have become very popular.

Use the "Buy it Now" to purchase this beauty for $875, which is what you would expect to pay if it was in Choice CU condition.

Rick

[Edited out eBay link, included image and partial description. --BWJM]

Can't say I know anything about this particular grading company. Mind you I have seen their holders on many American notes on eBay.

Thanks for the cleanup, Brent.

It is unlikely I could have done that.

Note the grade is Gem Uncirculated 67. I wonder if they grade Canadian notes as well.

Rick

I am on the road and dont have access to all my files but on my palm I have the following info on them:

Commenced business operations on Dec 1, 1997.  Fees approx $25.00 per note. Contact Information:  PO Box 141235, Staten Island, New York 10314-008. Phone: 718 983-5899.

Troy

http://www.cganotes.com/

Can't seem to see thier grading standards though.  

Tom

Looks like my file can use some updating, they have jumped across the pond to NJ it would appear from their website.

Troy

I am all but certain they are using the Friedberg method not only for cataloging but also for grading which is being widely adopted in the USA.

Notes accurately graded according using this system are fetching strong premiums as not all UNC's are treated the same and an UNC 67 or 65 is getting much stronger prices than an UNC 60.

I can post a follow up if you wish with the details of how this system works.


Troy

Troy:
I, for one, would be very interested in how this grading system works. Although I tend to be an advocate of the current grading system used in Charltons (& CPMS), I think exposure to other grading systems must be viewed (and debated) with an open-mind.
Thanks
Rob

This information comes from the current Official Red Book of USA Paper Money by Arthur L. and Ira S. Friedberg (page 41).

Gem Uncirculated (Gem Unc) (UNC-65)

A note that is flawless, with the same freshness, crispness, and bright color as when first printed. It must be perfectly centered, with full margins, and free of any marks, blemishes, or traces of handling.

Choice Uncirculated (Ch Unc) (Unc-63)

An Uncirculated note that is fresher and brighter than the norm for its particular issue. Almost as nice as Gem Uncirculated but not quite there. Must be reasonably well centered.

Uncirculated (Unc) (Unc-60)

A note that shows no trace of circulation. It might not have perfect centering and might have one or more pinholes, counting smudges, or other evidence of improper handling, while still containing its original crispness. Sometimes large-size notes will be encountered which are obviously Uncirculated, but which have some tiny pinholes. It was customary in the onld days to spindle or pin notes together, and that is why so many Unc notes might show tiny pinholes. Such imperfections do not generally impair the choice appearance of a new note, and such notes are to be regarded as being UNC, although they generally command slightly lower prices than note in perfect condition.

About Uncirculated (AU) AU-50, AU-55 and AU-58

A bright, crisp note that appears new but upon close examination shows a trace of very light use, such as a corner fold or faint crease. About Uncirculated is a border line condition, applied to a note that may not be quite Uncirculated, but yet is obviously better than average Extremely Fine note. Such notes command a price only slightly below a new note and are highly desirable.

Extremely Fine (EF) (EF-40 and EF-45)

A note that shows some faint evidence of circulation, although it will be bright and retain nearly full crispness. It may have two or three minor folds or creases but no tears or stains and no discoloration.

Very Fine (VF) (VF-20, VF-25, VF-30 and VF 35)

A note that has been in circulation, but note actively or for long. It still retains some crispness and is still choice enough in its condition to be altogether desirable. It may show folds or creases, or some light smudges from the hands of a past generation. Sometime, Very Fine notes are the best available in certain rare issues, and they should accordingly be cherished just as much as Uncirculated notes.


Fine (F) (F-12 and F-15)

A Fine note shows evidence of much more circulation and has lost its crispness and very fine detail, and creases are more pronounced, although the note is not seriously soiled or stained.

Very Good (VG) (VG-8 and VG-10)

A note that has had considerable wear or circulation and may be limp, soiled, or dark in appearance, and might even have a small tear or two on an edge.

Good (G) (G-4)

A note that is baldy worn, with margin or body tears, frayed margins and missing corners.

Notes regarding grading:

In general, discriminating collectors will not acquire Fine or lower grade notes because they have lost their aesthetic appeal, but this generally applies only to common notes. However, a really rare note has a ready market even in Good condition, because it may not otherwise exist, or if it is choice, will have an extremely high price commensurate with its great rarity.

Regarding Improving or repairing currency: such improvements are generally accepted and should always be mentioned when offered for sale whether by an auctioneer or a dealer; anything else is a misrepresentatation.
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I actually like this system and may adopt it myself for use here in Canada. One of the big take aways here is that not all UNC are treated the same, some UNC 65's will command strong premiums over an UNC 60 (remind you of say, umm coins?).

I have seen use of an UNC 67 as well (such as the note Rick started this thread with) which is described as follows:

Superb Crisp Uncirculated-67: A nearly flawless note with perfect centering. Full wide margins all around. Colors are totally bright, crisp and vibrant. Quality is outstanding.
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You can all draw your own conclusions as to where the Canadian market may be headed one day. When we say a note is aEF, do we mean VF-35 to VF-39?

Food for thought.

Troy.

I like that grading better than this grading standard.
http://www.canadiancurrencygradingservice.com/standards.htm

Tom

UNC! with pinholes and "Shows some signs of handling or wear"" may not be an accurate quote but thats the gist of what I read for MS60...come on!! SHOWS SIGNS OF WEAR !!! and PINHOLES for an uncirculated note! not gonna be anything I purchase thats for sure...

10-4 Tom,

The Friedberg's have set a global standard over 47 years in Gold coins and their reputation impeccable so I expect the adoption of their ideas to be widely accepted in paper as well.

I like the focus on comparing UNC notes, it makes sense given the current intense focus on determining what mint state (MS) a coin is in.

As I can see from one reaction already I suppose for some a sudden awareness of what is happening elsewhere will echo the allegory of the cave in Plato's "Republic".

Troy

I guess Troy.....  what ever you said means...  

Tom

Come on Tom,

Not helping translate this one, Plato would roll in his grave, what's left of him anyway after 2352 years!

Smiles.

Troy

While a three-UNCs US style system has some attraction let us not think it will in anyway eliminate abuse. I suspect we will naturally move toward that as we have with coins. I am already using terms like "Gem" and "Original", trying to differentiate one UNC versus another. There are many grades within UNC. I can see myself using the three-part system, though it would be much better to be an industry-wide or hobby-wide decision.

Third-party graded notes are absolutely no guarantee of accurate grading. There are several systems at work in the USA. Some I trust generally, some are useless. I have seen third-party graded UNC-63's with a centre fold evident while standing up at a table and looking through the case glass.

Collectors have been abused so much they are desiring that third-party apparent independence. But some graders are dealers too. Is that a conflict ? There are arguments both ways.

Collectors need to know there is no substitute for personally learning to grade. Perhaps show operators and the CPMS could start doing some seminars ? The collector would be educated both as to grading and the fact that there is and will be some judgment and subjectivity to it. Always and forever - BUYER BEWARE ! We can help a lot with grading education though - that could be THE most important step.
Don

Raising my glass in full agreement.

Troy

Don, bring it up at the CAND annual meeting. We would be pleased if you wished to run a grading seminar in January.

Rick

This doesn't make any sense:

Superb Crisp Uncirculated-67: A nearly flawless note with perfect centering. Full wide margins all around. Colors are totally bright, crisp and vibrant. Quality is outstanding.

Gem Uncirculated (Gem Unc) (UNC-65)
A note that is flawless...

So UNC-67 is NEARLY FLAWLESS while UNC-65 is FLAWLESS.  

The UNC 67 is being used by some dealers in the USA, and is not part of the Friedberg model as presented in their texts. The Friedberg perfect note is UNC 65 as stated my post above.

UNC 67 is instead part of the system used by the company (and a few others) from which Rick presented us with a note from.

Comparing a grade presented by some dealers/graders in the USA and the Friedberg model doesn't work.

I do however agree that anyone brave enough to slap UNC 67 on a note had better start with "a flawless note".

I like the Friedberg model and none other better at present. Adopting such a system will create significant change in the way UNC notes are valued in Canada. It is one thing to say a note is UNC, Choice UNC or Gem UNC, it is another thing for the pricing panel to price a GEM 65 at 2 or more times than an UNC 60 as they do in the USA.

Glad to see we are no longer laughing threads like this off the forum as I have seen in the past.

The light being cast on this issue and the other issue in the pricing panel thread appear to now have the markets full attention.

It is a smarter, more informed market these days and growing up fast; leadership will carry increased challenges.

Troy.

I like that grading better than this grading standard.
http://www.canadiancurrencygradingservice.com/standards.htm

Tom

Don't even get me started on this system

The collector would be educated both as to grading and the fact that there is and will be some judgment and subjectivity to it. Always and forever - BUYER BEWARE ! We can help a lot with grading education though - that could be THE most important step.
Don

Don ,
The collector has to want to be educated first. This has been the problem in both coins and paper forever.
People see what they want to see and others are more than willing to show them what they want to see. It seems to be a vicious circle.

Lets us say that CAND sponsors a grading seminar on paper money. (and we can afford it)
Couple of questions. Whose standards for grading should we use?
Who is qualified to teach such a course?.

I appreciate this is hypotetical.

Who are these great graders and instructors. If you were to hire someone to do some grading stuff, who would it be?

Rick

I would like to see Don do it and represent the Canadian tradition with a guest expert speaker from the USA who has had years as a professional grader of deciding between UNC 60 to UNC 65 notes.

Not Mel as the guest, that's too easy and predictable.

I could put forward a few ideas if you like on the USA person to invite once I was convinced the will existed to do this comprehensively. New blood is needed to freshen up the approach.

Troy

While I agree new blood may be required to liven things up, the new blood will have to be from within Canada. We are if nothing else, resistant to change (see comments about CCGS grading standards) . Bringing in an expert grader of  US bank notes to discuss the grading of Canadian notes will be dismissed.

It is my opinion that the conclusion of the last post is False if such an expert were invited for discussion as a guest speaker. The market is opening its mind, becoming more international, and ready for the next steps.

Those who serve at the pleasure of the market and are in tune with its pulse and beating heart knows and lives this daily. The focus of the guest speaker would be a summary of how the USA market has grown and the adoption and market acceptance of a multi-level UNC system. Someone could also speak about the migration of US based collectors moving into CDN currency via the Internet.  I could speak to this and (with sufficient notice) provide warm bodied 4-5 figure a month (spent on their CDN collections) examples under the protection of a non solicitation agreement.

If you wish to hold a seminar let me know how many you would like at the seminar Rick and I will ensure that some of the heavyweight online buyers both CDN and American based attend. I can bring such an event a lot of instant exposure if I have about 1 months notice. I will be offering to pay the cost of the seminar for my entire active client base if the cost is reasonable.

Adding an international approach will be received extremely well and the Canadian tradition would be in very good hands with Don.

I would highly recommend combining the overall theme of how to grade/accurate grading with an alliance of the top dealers in Canada who will simultaneously introduce a 3 level of UNC system. All dealers who subscribe to it need not attend but rather they need to sign off on it. I would reciprocate by delaying any plans I have to further introduce such a system to the market.

The panel should then endorse the movement as it will be expected to make its way into the 19th edition price guide, if there isn't time to address this before the new Chartered guide is compiled the market would understand.

Troy