TNS Auction

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

I would like to attend the auction next weekend in Hamilton, there are several notes I'm interested in.

Can anyone offer any advice on how these auctions work.

Do you have to pre-register to bid ? How does EBay LIVE play into the equation ? Do EBay bids come in during the floor bidding ? Do notes typically sell for market value with bidders eating the tax + hammer fee ?

Any input is appreciated

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I can answer your questions on the TNS auction (I am the autioneer).

In most cases, the notes have a reserve. The first bids are mail bids. They open one notch above the highest bid, using eBay increments. Bids are determined by a method so that the high mail bidder start price is one notch above the second highest bidder. We start when the item is placed on ebay, looking for one increment better than we have. The note is put before the floor and eBay at the same time, and eBay bidders are competing against the floor. We also take some phone bidders, who also compete.

Couple of examples.  Note has a reserve of $200, mail bids bring it up to $260, it starts on the floor as above at $280. We may have bids on Ebay to $300, and sell the note on the floor for $325. Ebay live is slow and painfull. Taxes and shipping are extra, along with a 15% buyers premium. Hope you can make it.

Rick

Lots can be viewed in advance of the Sat., May 27, 5pm auction. Viewing on Friday 11am - 5pm and Sat 10am - 4pm. Sign up for the auction in the viewing room.

Be sure to have a look at any lots you are bidding on since all floor bids are final. Ebay and mail bidders have a short window to return any incorrectly described items.

Gary

how common is it for Ebay bids and telephone bids to come in during the actual floor auction ?

You said Ebay live is slow and painful, does this slow the auction progress considerably ?

And will the entire auction be complete on Sat night

Any other input anyone has is welcome

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Ebay live slows the auction rate down to about 150 lots per hour. On a regular auction, I can operate at 225 lots per hour or more.

The number of ebay bids averages about 60% of lots, some hot numbers will have multiple bids. Telephone bids are rarely used. One of the owners of the auction site sometimes takes phone bids, most often of items of great value, but its not like it is continuous. In Oakville, last Novemeber, we held up the auction awaiting a phone call from the UK on a very rare coin (the caller bought it for $30,000).

Ebay live is slow and painfull to me, I am the one calling the auction. Several of the members on this site were in Oakville last year, and I think they agree that eBay really slows it down. It does give the buyer more time to think about it. We held up last year when the woman who actually types in the computer had to stop to repair a broken finger nail, but accidents happen. (this delay was less than 2 minutes).

Register prior to the auction, which is Saturday evening at 5 pm. They will give you a cute little card with 3 numbers on it, and this gives you a chance to talk to the owners, and ask any questions about fees, taxes, payment methods et cetera.

Rick

Thanks Rick for all your input. It will be fun to participate. Not sure I'll be successful on this my first try at it. I'll be more of a spectator until I feel a comfort level for it.

I enjoy collecting for personal satisfaction but obviously you want to do well financially in the long term. My son is 14 and really likes collecting notes, he has a small collection of his own and some day I hope to just pass my notes along to him.

My largest query at this point is how the taxes and buyers premium affect the bidding. I imagine the tougher lots people bid upwards of book value and beyond just to be able to fill the spots in thier collection and the less atttractive lots are bid under book because of the final hammer fees and taxes. Is that a reasonable assumption ?

Also taxes are something I have a question coming to terms with regarding numismatic auction purchases. Correct me if I'm wrong...... At a regular retail coin store 7% GST applies, at a show there is zero taxes. Why at an auction does PST also apply.

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The taxes collectable in Ontario for Numismatic items are 8% PST plus 7% GST. There are some bullion items that are exempt from GST (.99 or better purity).

The price of items in this auction are derived from the actual selling price and it then included the hammer fee. This total is used for taxation purposes.

An item that sells for $100 on the floor to a floor bidder, costs him/her $115 plus $17.25, for a total of $132.25. Some bidders attempt to bid their maximum that includes both the hammer fee (or buyer's premium) and the taxes. The actual cost to the bidder should be kept in mind to avoid problems. I would say bid 75% of your maximum to keep it a bit tidier.

Nothing any of us can do about the taxes, GST applies to all, PST can be avoided if you have a valid vendors permit. Because CP is from Quebec, the Quebec provincial tax applies to lots delivered to Quebec.

Retail coin shops collect both taxes. At shows, many of the dealers are not registered, and thus do not collect the taxes. Others include the taxes in the price.

You may have fun on the bourse floor. There are several dealers of paper money including Olstead Currency. It is getting people into the bourse floor that pays expenses. There is no charge to view or bid on auction items.

Rick

Interesting about the taxes.
In reviewing old posts I have seen you recommend Arcade Coins in Toronto, on a trip to that store my son bought a note and was only charged GST, no PST ?? Why would that be ?

So I understand the hammer fee is calculated first and then taxes are applied to the total purchase. Thus you are paying the taxes on the buyers premium also....correct ?

It's nice to hear Mr. Olmstead will be at the show, I wasn't expecting to see him until Torex. I have attended the last two Torex shows and spent several thousand dollars at his table. He is a very enjoyable dealer. Very nice to deal with, takes the time to make you feel welcome. His grading is quite reasonable, he has a good inventory and when purchasing numerous notes in 1 visit will provide a modest discount.

I set up a little spreadsheet in my palm pilot that does the calculation for me.  The second row allows me to input the maximum I want to pay and then tells me the maximum to bid.   Using rscoins' example of 15% premium and 15% tax:


bid price      add auction premium            add tax         total
100.00                       15.00                         17.25        132.50

max to pay      subtract tax            subtract premium      max bid      
132.25                  17.25                           15.00               100.00

The 1954 modified specimen set went for $9,900!! .  With the hammer fees and taxes that makes the total over $13,000!!   .  And the set books for only $4,500 in the 17th ed. of Charlton's  

$4800 in the 18th edition but I'll hang on to my set for a few more years...........maybe!  

Venga you do have to remember that there are only 12 of these sets. Not 1012 or a million and 12. Less than the forty seven 1937 sets or the combined french and english sets of 1935.

$4800 in the 18th edition but I'll hang on to my set for a few more years...........maybe!  

Venga you do have to remember that there are only 12 of these sets. Not 1012 or a million and 12. Less than the forty seven 1937 sets or the combined french and english sets of 1935.

No argument here - it's just amazing how far off the market value Charlton's is in pricing these notes.

On the other hand it appears Charlton's has over-priced the multicolour specimen sets.  These currently book at $2,150 in the 18th ed. but in today's auction one of these sets went for $1,400 (about $1,850 with hammer fees/taxes).

Comparing a 1954 $2 modified specimen and a 1974 $2 specimen, there were only 108 of the '54s produced and it books at $225 in the 17th ed.  There were 635 of the '74s produced and it books only $25 lower at $200  :-?

I was wondering if those who purchased notes from the TNS auction online, whether they can pick up their notes on Sunday at the Ramada, or have to rely on having them mailed.?


Thanks,


Manny

Manny: I don't know, but it can't hurt to ask the guys if you're going there anyway tomorrow.

Nice to finally meet you today!

was it a good show to go to Brent.  Anyone going tomorrow (sunday)?  Maybe we can meet up there.

Polarbear