TNS Auction

News: Registration is free here at the CPMF!

I would like to attend the auction next weekend in Hamilton, there are several notes I'm interested in.

Can anyone offer any advice on how these auctions work.

Do you have to pre-register to bid ? How does EBay LIVE play into the equation ? Do EBay bids come in during the floor bidding ? Do notes typically sell for market value with bidders eating the tax + hammer fee ?

Any input is appreciated

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I can answer your questions on the TNS auction (I am the autioneer).

In most cases, the notes have a reserve. The first bids are mail bids. They open one notch above the highest bid, using eBay increments. Bids are determined by a method so that the high mail bidder start price is one notch above the second highest bidder. We start when the item is placed on ebay, looking for one increment better than we have. The note is put before the floor and eBay at the same time, and eBay bidders are competing against the floor. We also take some phone bidders, who also compete.

Couple of examples.  Note has a reserve of $200, mail bids bring it up to $260, it starts on the floor as above at $280. We may have bids on Ebay to $300, and sell the note on the floor for $325. Ebay live is slow and painfull. Taxes and shipping are extra, along with a 15% buyers premium. Hope you can make it.

Rick

Lots can be viewed in advance of the Sat., May 27, 5pm auction. Viewing on Friday 11am - 5pm and Sat 10am - 4pm. Sign up for the auction in the viewing room.

Be sure to have a look at any lots you are bidding on since all floor bids are final. Ebay and mail bidders have a short window to return any incorrectly described items.

Gary

how common is it for Ebay bids and telephone bids to come in during the actual floor auction ?

You said Ebay live is slow and painful, does this slow the auction progress considerably ?

And will the entire auction be complete on Sat night

Any other input anyone has is welcome

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Ebay live slows the auction rate down to about 150 lots per hour. On a regular auction, I can operate at 225 lots per hour or more.

The number of ebay bids averages about 60% of lots, some hot numbers will have multiple bids. Telephone bids are rarely used. One of the owners of the auction site sometimes takes phone bids, most often of items of great value, but its not like it is continuous. In Oakville, last Novemeber, we held up the auction awaiting a phone call from the UK on a very rare coin (the caller bought it for $30,000).

Ebay live is slow and painfull to me, I am the one calling the auction. Several of the members on this site were in Oakville last year, and I think they agree that eBay really slows it down. It does give the buyer more time to think about it. We held up last year when the woman who actually types in the computer had to stop to repair a broken finger nail, but accidents happen. (this delay was less than 2 minutes).

Register prior to the auction, which is Saturday evening at 5 pm. They will give you a cute little card with 3 numbers on it, and this gives you a chance to talk to the owners, and ask any questions about fees, taxes, payment methods et cetera.

Rick

Thanks Rick for all your input. It will be fun to participate. Not sure I'll be successful on this my first try at it. I'll be more of a spectator until I feel a comfort level for it.

I enjoy collecting for personal satisfaction but obviously you want to do well financially in the long term. My son is 14 and really likes collecting notes, he has a small collection of his own and some day I hope to just pass my notes along to him.

My largest query at this point is how the taxes and buyers premium affect the bidding. I imagine the tougher lots people bid upwards of book value and beyond just to be able to fill the spots in thier collection and the less atttractive lots are bid under book because of the final hammer fees and taxes. Is that a reasonable assumption ?

Also taxes are something I have a question coming to terms with regarding numismatic auction purchases. Correct me if I'm wrong...... At a regular retail coin store 7% GST applies, at a show there is zero taxes. Why at an auction does PST also apply.

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The taxes collectable in Ontario for Numismatic items are 8% PST plus 7% GST. There are some bullion items that are exempt from GST (.99 or better purity).

The price of items in this auction are derived from the actual selling price and it then included the hammer fee. This total is used for taxation purposes.

An item that sells for $100 on the floor to a floor bidder, costs him/her $115 plus $17.25, for a total of $132.25. Some bidders attempt to bid their maximum that includes both the hammer fee (or buyer's premium) and the taxes. The actual cost to the bidder should be kept in mind to avoid problems. I would say bid 75% of your maximum to keep it a bit tidier.

Nothing any of us can do about the taxes, GST applies to all, PST can be avoided if you have a valid vendors permit. Because CP is from Quebec, the Quebec provincial tax applies to lots delivered to Quebec.

Retail coin shops collect both taxes. At shows, many of the dealers are not registered, and thus do not collect the taxes. Others include the taxes in the price.

You may have fun on the bourse floor. There are several dealers of paper money including Olstead Currency. It is getting people into the bourse floor that pays expenses. There is no charge to view or bid on auction items.

Rick

Interesting about the taxes.
In reviewing old posts I have seen you recommend Arcade Coins in Toronto, on a trip to that store my son bought a note and was only charged GST, no PST ?? Why would that be ?

So I understand the hammer fee is calculated first and then taxes are applied to the total purchase. Thus you are paying the taxes on the buyers premium also....correct ?

It's nice to hear Mr. Olmstead will be at the show, I wasn't expecting to see him until Torex. I have attended the last two Torex shows and spent several thousand dollars at his table. He is a very enjoyable dealer. Very nice to deal with, takes the time to make you feel welcome. His grading is quite reasonable, he has a good inventory and when purchasing numerous notes in 1 visit will provide a modest discount.

I set up a little spreadsheet in my palm pilot that does the calculation for me.  The second row allows me to input the maximum I want to pay and then tells me the maximum to bid.   Using rscoins' example of 15% premium and 15% tax:


bid price      add auction premium            add tax         total
100.00                       15.00                         17.25        132.50

max to pay      subtract tax            subtract premium      max bid      
132.25                  17.25                           15.00               100.00

The 1954 modified specimen set went for $9,900!! .  With the hammer fees and taxes that makes the total over $13,000!!   .  And the set books for only $4,500 in the 17th ed. of Charlton's  

$4800 in the 18th edition but I'll hang on to my set for a few more years...........maybe!  

Venga you do have to remember that there are only 12 of these sets. Not 1012 or a million and 12. Less than the forty seven 1937 sets or the combined french and english sets of 1935.

$4800 in the 18th edition but I'll hang on to my set for a few more years...........maybe!  

Venga you do have to remember that there are only 12 of these sets. Not 1012 or a million and 12. Less than the forty seven 1937 sets or the combined french and english sets of 1935.

No argument here - it's just amazing how far off the market value Charlton's is in pricing these notes.

On the other hand it appears Charlton's has over-priced the multicolour specimen sets.  These currently book at $2,150 in the 18th ed. but in today's auction one of these sets went for $1,400 (about $1,850 with hammer fees/taxes).

Comparing a 1954 $2 modified specimen and a 1974 $2 specimen, there were only 108 of the '54s produced and it books at $225 in the 17th ed.  There were 635 of the '74s produced and it books only $25 lower at $200  :-?

I was wondering if those who purchased notes from the TNS auction online, whether they can pick up their notes on Sunday at the Ramada, or have to rely on having them mailed.?


Thanks,


Manny

Manny: I don't know, but it can't hurt to ask the guys if you're going there anyway tomorrow.

Nice to finally meet you today!

was it a good show to go to Brent.  Anyone going tomorrow (sunday)?  Maybe we can meet up there.

Polarbear

I wasn't planning on going tommorrow but definitely would if I can have my notes in my hands sooner, so I can cuddle with them. Did I mention how much I love money?

And yes it was great to finally meet you, and other fellow members/collectors today( Oli, walkttothewater, sudzee )

I really enjoyed hanging out with a bunch of guys who talk about the same stuff I always talk about, with my friends and family, which normally always seems to fall on deaf ears until today.

Roland: No, I won't be back tomorrow. It was a decent show. I found more notes than I should have bought, but meh... I always enjoy the company of friends though on days like that.

I should be there tomorrow, should be there first thing.  Anyone waht to find me, go to Don Olmsteads table and ask him.

Tom   [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

I should be there tomorrow, should be there first thing.  Anyone waht to find me, go to Don Olmsteads table and ask him.

Tom   [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

I'd watch your wallet around there. Everytime I go to Don's table I seem to leave with no money

It was a good show and my first shot at the auction. I was only successful on 1 note but thats OK it was a good experience.

What does it mean when the auctioneer says it goes back to the book ?

Great show... not too busy...just busy enough!
Nice to see everyone there!
The auction sounds crazy!!!

I'd watch your wallet around there. Everytime I go to Don's table I seem to leave with no money

It was a good show and my first shot at the auction. I was only successful on 1 note but thats OK it was a good experience.

What does it mean when the auctioneer says it goes back to the book ?

You were there and you didn't try to introduce yourself? We were the guys sitting at the back of the room.

What that means is that it failed to achieve the reserve bid, and thus was not sold. Mail bids are typically reserves, although there are sometimes actual mail bids.

I'd watch your wallet around there. Everytime I go to Don's table I seem to leave with no money

It was a good show and my first shot at the auction. I was only successful on 1 note but thats OK it was a good experience.

What does it mean when the auctioneer says it goes back to the book ?

You were there and you didn't try to introduce yourself? We were the guys sitting at the back of the room.

What that means is that it failed to achieve the reserve bid, and thus was not sold. Mail bids are typically reserves, although there are sometimes actual mail bids.

Ahh thanks, no reserve. And I assume "it goes to the mail" means a mail bidder has won.

My son had a commitment back home in Ajax so we had to leave just over an hour into the auction, but I still got to bid on the notes I had interest in. I won the Narrow Panel 1937 $ 1 and made 3-4 bids on the 1937 Osborne $ 2 EF++.

I came into the auction about 15 mins after it started Brent and left before the end. I would have liked to have gotten to know some of you folks. Maybe at Torex if some of you all go there. I guess I was actually sitting right near you guys. I was with my 14 year old son near the back of the room. He comes to all the shows with me and has a collection of his own.

O yes, I remember seeing you there. You actually sat right beside us and we never even knew it. After you won that note you leaned over to me and ask what would happen if you left since you had a prior commitment - whether they would contact you or if you had to stay to recieve the note. That was me  

On the other hand it appears Charlton's has over-priced the multicolour specimen sets.  These currently book at $2,150 in the 18th ed. but in today's auction one of these sets went for $1,400 (about $1,850 with hammer fees/taxes).
 
Comparing a 1954 $2 modified specimen and a 1974 $2 specimen, there were only 108 of the '54s produced and it books at $225 in the 17th ed.  There were 635 of the '74s produced and it books only $25 lower at $200  

Your right Venga on both counts but the extra $2 and $5 1954 specimens don't sell at book. The $2 at the aution sold for almost $375 all in. I wouldn't think about selling any of my extras for less than double book.

I'm sure there will be a correction on the multicolour specimens because I have not seen one sell close to book.

It was me calling the auction.
In most cases, I do not know what it is I am selling, All I have is a page of numbers. The opening bid is called out to me, and I take it from there, attampting to follow the ebay increments. The woman to my left is actually running the auction on ebay.

The start bid is a combination of reserve and mail bid. I am never sure which, so when I get no bids, it sells for the starting price, so to save time, I call it the mail. About 30% of the lots sold on eBay, which is typical. After the auction, which ended at midnight, many people stayed to pick up won lots, while the rest, many picked up on Sunday. Others choose to have them mailed.

I noticed the pack of paper money people sitting at the back of the room. One was sporting very nice shorts.

Rick

I noticed the pack of paper money people sitting at the back of the room. One was sporting very nice shorts.

Rick

I really loved that hat, I had one just like it once, and seemed to have lost it at a show at one time.   8-)

Tom

O yes, I remember seeing you there. You actually sat right beside us and we never even knew it. After you won that note you leaned over to me and ask what would happen if you left since you had a prior commitment - whether they would contact you or if you had to stay to recieve the note. That was me  

Go figure eh. Well nice to meet ya then Oli

And Rick. I was unable to return Sunday also. Will I get an invoice in the mail for the Narrow Panel. Can the notes be picked up somewhere or am I stuck with the mail now.

All material not picked up in Hamilton, was taken back to Quebec City late Sunday night. I suspect it was several hours before Eric got back. Looks like Canada Post is the way it is coming now.

Rick

C&P was the holder of the auction as he was the high bidder to hold it in Hamilton. The previous auctioneer decided to perform auctions using a different venue. I called the auction as an agreement with C&P, as I have called several for him before (TICF in Oakville for two years).

One needs a little bit of shyness to work in front of the public, I managed to overcome my shyness.

Rick

One needs a little bit of shyness to work in front of the public, I managed to overcome my shyness.

Rick

I have a comment Rick, not a complaint at all because this is somewhat rare
I sat in the front row in the opening of the auction because I'm partially deaf, but later moved to the back because I preferred to be able to see if I was bidding against others in the room. It was the lesser of the the two evils. At one point you picked up the microphone and sort of asked if we wanted you to use the mike  8-). Honestly even in the front row I had a hard time hearing. When we skipped lot 138A ( Devils Face replacement ) which was next on the list ( do you remember ) I lost track of what was happening. The bid opened at $ 250 for a different note ( Devils Face $ 2 slider ) ( Whatever a slider is ) I was shocked thinking why was the bid so low for a Dev Repl. I quickly bid because it was the next note in the book. No matter anyways, the $ 2 received multiple bids and I ended up not being the high bidder for a note I wasn't interested in. My suggestion is to use the mike in the future. Difficulty hearing is an impairment you can't see and would have no way of knowing anything about. But there are lots of us out out there.

I am not sure I remember exact details of the auction, after all I was working from a book of numbers, without any mention as to the item description.

The Victoria and Albert room has a slightly noisey air conditioning system, I could hear the hum of the fans all the time, and with the two girls at my table coughing together (and yawning), there were distractions for the auctioneer. The sound system provided by the hotel was a real piece of junk, and worked only from time to time. I also can hear little from my left ear, so I understand the sound difficulty.

I had one bidder sit in a chair directly behind a pillar from me, and both myself and my spotter (Kathy) didn't see him bidding. As luck would have it, Eric spotted him from a different angle. Better you sit up front than get confused about what lot we are on. I do not want to yell with 992 lots to go in an evening, however, a better sound system would be nice as well.

Rick

All material not picked up in Hamilton, was taken back to Quebec City late Sunday night. I suspect it was several hours before Eric got back. Looks like Canada Post is the way it is coming now.

Rick

Rick do C & P go to Torex every year. Maybe I can just have any winning bids delivered there ?

C&P have been regulars at Torex for some years. You may be able to arrange pick up there. Contact Eric by email. If you don't have the email, contact me, I will give it to you.

Rick

C&P have been regulars at Torex for some years. You may be able to arrange pick up there. Contact Eric by email. If you don't have the email, contact me, I will give it to you.

Rick

No I do not have it.
Can please PM it too me

Thanks

cpnum@qc.aira.com

Thanks Rick