Missing Circle notes QUESTION!

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Anyone have any idea why Missing circle notes are not in the catalogue?a) not important or b) past the cut off c) inconclusive evidence?
Huds

I agree....  :-?

They are well known....

I would think [size=20]A[/size]

and hopefully not just because I think so!

I can't believe it's because they're not important.  They're certainly more intriguing than some of the so called error notes containing a micro-blob of stray ink splatter.  I would say (c) inconclusive, although there doesn't appear to be much discussion anymore.

Well,  

We could shed some light on the matter an hopefully get this possibly included for 20th Edition.  :-/

Everyone knows about these notes, they are nothing new, and they have commanded a premium in the market.  

What kind of premium do you think that these notes command? What about the notes with 40% - 60% missing circles, do they command much premium? I have a few of these missing circle notes but I am not sure what they are worth (I never really followed the missing circle variety) All help would be much appreciated

From what I have seen and traded over the last year, the going zone is about $30 ea (as in sticker price in a dealers showcase). That isfor the 40-50% Missing circle visible.

I have no info for the value of the TWO missing circles notes.

Someone out here has a ton of information on them, and ranges and availability.  I do not remember who it was.

Alright Huds, so $30 each. What about if the note is more expensive? For instance an insert, changeover or short run. What would the price of a 2000 FDY  or a 2001 FEE go for with a missing circle? Would you just add $30 to the price of the note being sold?

Well, just like radars...

My BEK 2003 radar, is it worth $30, or is it worth a few hundred more than that - like Cat. value (and maybe plus $30)
I think in cases like that, the "premium" is less of the focus, so should carry less weight ofthe price.

Radars, missing circles, and other side stuff like that all kind of get similar pricing schemes, based on the market and how people respond to those notes for buying and selling from what I have seen.

Low FEE Missing circle  for example-- Just take into account how many there are (possible). Take that versus the FEC missing circle, which is more common I believe.
More notes= higher supply= lower price (price also due to item's popularity of course)

Well Oli, you don't have to worry about an FDY with a missing circle, as the variety didn't start till prefix FEB!
JWS

The missing circle is not an error.  It simply is an anomaly, or variation seen due to a slight shift of the pattern in that little zone where we see them.  They're considered to be quite common so no one is getting overly excited about them.

Yes, dealers are asking about $30 for a common variety (prefix) with a partial or full missing circle...but whether they're actually selling them for that is hard to say. Incidently, that's 5- $10 over book.  Dealers do add an additional $30 to most rarer notes, but again whether this is getting them anywhere is up to the buying public.
 
I bought a 2001 FEE last year for $120.  The same dealer offered me a missing circle FEE for $150, but I chose the less exensive of the 2.   The condition of the note I bought is truly a GEM so I felt like I got a great deal.  I doubt I'll be slapping myself on the side of the head for that missing missing circle FEE I could have owned!

Occassionaly you will see missing circle inserts go for auction and they occassionaly command quite a price, but I'm not sure whether this is due to hype or to real desire for this note.  I'm sure its all speculation at this point.  Lots of collectors today are dying for something a bit different...so maybe that's why the hype over the missing circle.  However, after the lost prefixes, I'm sure the missing circle hype has somewhat fizzled.

Occassionaly you will see missing circle inserts go for auction and they occassionaly command quite a price, but I'm not sure whether this is due to hype or to real desire for this note.  I'm sure its all speculation at this point.  Lots of collectors today are dying for something a bit different...so maybe that's why the hype over the missing circle.  However, after the lost prefixes, I'm sure the missing circle hype has somewhat fizzled

Apparently there is a growing body of collectors who are indeed interested in only collecting missing circle variety $10

JWS and Sudzee have been keeping track of the missing circle varieties, and know more about them than a lot of other collectors.

We should probably see a change in the next Charlton, since interest is there.

The missing circle is not an error.  It simply is an anomaly

Interesting take on it. As far as I can tell, it is an error in that most notes do show the circles there even when shifted while some notes do not show the circles when shifted. To me that would indicate a difference in the plates used to print them. Some plates must have been missing these circles on some, but not all, of the positions.

I believe JWS has an interesting article pending for the CPMS newsletter on this subject.

Without stealing his thunder, I believe that he concludes that the missing circles are on the left-most column of 10 notes on a 40/on sheet, meaning that of the earliest affected prefixes, there was a theorhetical yeild of about 25% missing circles. However, since it was along the cutting margin, the actual yeild was much lower.

As far as I can tell, it is an error in that most notes do show the circles there even when shifted

Would you consider missing BPN errors?

At the Paris show John referred to the missing circle as an "anomaly"  An anomaly means an "irregularity," or something not seen often.  I think its a most fitting description of the missing circle regardless of how it was created. It certainly is not a dramatic printing error.

I think if 15 to 25% of $10 prefix demonstrate a missing circle (which is not an error in the classic sense), than that would qualify as an anomaly.

The missing circle certainly cannot be compared to
1) "missing serial numbers"  (or mismatched or any type of serial number error)
2) missing gold leafs
3) missing partial printing (eg "ghost" notes)
4) offset printing errors
or any of the errors we're familiar with

All of the above examples are extremely rarely seen.  

Would you consider missing BPN errors?

At the Paris show John referred to the missing circle as an "anomaly"

And yes, I do consider missing BPN errors in production.

Well... now we're into semantics. When is something that is incorrectly produced, not an "error"? It's not what it's suppose to be, that makes it "wrong".

I can, however, accept "anomaly" just like missing BPN, but where do you draw the line? There are lots of "one off errors", as well as strings of notes caused by the same production glitch (hickies for example can affect 3 to 20 consecutive notes), BPN and circles affect 1000's of notes. Is it the number of note that determine "errors" or "anomalies"? If a sheet is missing a layer of ink, is it an error because we only found one, or is it an "anomaly" because we know there are more notes on the sheet? Are we going to define errors by who made it? The pressman, the bindery operator (paper cutter), the letterpress operator (numbering), the plate maker (BPN, circles), the embosser, intaglio operator?

If it isn't "right", it's "wrong". Error, anomaly:potAto, potOto

Tomaaatoe, tomaetoe  

Good questions and points

I guess I always thought that if its not an easily recognizable abnormality that the public can readily identify it would be an anomaly, since its taken considerable scrutiny to acknowledge it.  I would consider missing BPNs, missing circles, and serial number irregularities, as anomalies.  Irregularities would be seen in larger numbers (hence in the regular tables) than glaring errors identified at the back of Charlton.  Isn't there a need for a more specific adjective to describe notes of this kind?

While (you're right) they are all errors, I think its important to distinguish errors idenified by all collectors as such, over the small/minor irregularities we're discussing.  That's why the semantics....

And now, different sized letters and numbers in serial numbers aren't errors at all are they? They just had to replace a tumbler on the numbering machine before (or after) real errors (missing digits) are produced. It would seem to me that THESE aren't errors and are more what I'd call a "production anomaly". To me anomaly indicates something that is "different", but not necessarily "wrong".

Anomaly = "Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule." (although by this definition, all errors should be called anomalies)

Error = "A mistake."

Ah yes, semantics, error, anomaly, variety!

The following is my personal view, and my personal view only, as it relates to our hobby.

An "error" is something that does not have "predictability" associated with it. Missing one of the printing steps, printing registration shifts, printing on the wrong side, paper folds, etcetera, etcetera, are errors.

An "anomaly" or "variety" has predictability associated with it. The missing back plate position number on the Bird twenty is a variety produced by a plate anomaly. Predictably, every sheet printed from this plate had the condition. The missing circle note is a variety produced by a plate anomaly which predictably made 25% of the notes potentially missing circle notes.

JWS

I know to some it may sound like "splitting hairs" but I think the comments above are most fitting, and help our hobby along...  

I just wanted to point out that when a coin is struck with a mis-match die, it is an error coin, and considered a variety.  
When a coin is punched with a die crack- they are varieties, but not errors.

So I guess this $10 falls more under variety, (replace die chip with missing circle).  
An error note would be one that is like a folded corner extra paper section, or a $2 on the front with a $5 on the back.

Variety yes.

Hey guys/gals...tell me if this note is a white circle/missing circle note. :-/

Yes it is.

Yep, looks that way to me.

I agree also. How hard are they to find in circulation?

To find them in circulation now... will be a needle in a haystack.  Since the new $10 notes with the hologram strip have been issued for some time now, the older version notes are being culled in for destruction.

I have a few more banknotes for your perusal.    I am trying to convince myself that thes are also missing circle notes.  The first is a FEJ note.



This is a FEL note. :-?



Sorry for plugging the forum with these picutres.  The last one is a FEM banknote.

Is there ever a possibility that the $20 banknotes would ever have a missing circle?

They are indeed all "missing circle" notes.  This variety only appears on Journey (non-upgraded) 10s.

Hi,
    I try to found missing circle in the FEH insert.Did someone have what I'm looking for?
                              Claude
                 cbeaulieu1@videotron.ca