grading AGAIN

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

How is it possible to have a note that is "CHOICE very fine"?
What the heck is Choice supposed to mean?  Help please....

We are starting to see the word "choice, Gem"  more and more often.  There are people out there who think that using the words discribed above will bring higher premiums and yes they do.  The unfortuante ting is the end user usually has a sinking feeling and a "beaten " Feeling.

Maybe we should give an opinion of what we regard as choice, gem, Unc, etc

Here are my thoughts   There should be 3 grades of notes.  This is a very subjective subject and everyone has their thoughts.  I can respect everyones opinions but this will alway be a little misty in finding a happy medium.  If grading  companies  adapted a standard method that was recognized as as a  accepted standard by the very knowlegable  CPMF and CPMS groups That would be fantastic.
 Please forgive me if I give the wrong numbers as this is new to a lot of other people


Unc  or unc 61
You go to get a new bundle of notes and it comes right from the distribution/bank of canada and does not go into circulation . The notes may have the cutting crease, or any slight flaws that may be from the printers.  THere are no damaged corners,  Ripples or waves are possible.

Gem or choice unc or Unc 63
 a unc 61 note with  no ripple blemish creases or flaws in it at all.  This note  is like very rare in maybe the collectors  or searcher can find 1 note in 1000.  If that.  The note has embossing and everything that is suppose to lift off the note does.    Centering,  is all perfect.  I am not saying this is impossible but very rare and would desire a slightly higher premium.


Unconceivalbe Unc 65-67
This not I believe is unattainable.  Remember we heard of the perfect note.  I still am not sure what the perfect note is.    let say it is attainable.  That would mean it begins literally from when the paper is produced to setup to printing to inspecting to cutting to packaging to delivery to when someone like us who get the note and with perfect gloves on take this note out of the bundle and put it in the perfect holder.  Too may variables to be attainable.  maybe I am being a little tough but  if you warrant a  much higher premium.  You may want to back it up with these hard facts.  

What would be great if we could all gather and each person brings a note from g-unc 65-67 and under inspection with a group of us come up with hopefully a happy medium.  This could be the information that could be used for the future in grading paper money.

What are your thoughts

Polarbear

All I know is when I see a grade that says CHOICE anything now, it looks like an easy upsell. Very dissapointing.  I have a CHOICE VG note, I "chose" to pull it out of my wallet after about 6 years of abuse.   Im only asking double BV on it.  

Polerbear, your last paragraph hits home good. I agree.

For those of us who are new to this hobby and still working on the whole grading process, comments like Choice, or GEM merely tell me to stay away or bid less. Especially is there is not a really good picture of the note in question. I kind of like the system in the Charlton Guide, simple and easy. I really don't care what system is used, as long as it is the standard that everyone uses.

 [smiley=beer.gif]

Consider a note that has a BV of $1000 in UNC and $500 in AU.

How much would you pay for this note if it were:

1) UNC, perfect, no way to improve it
2) UNC, as in number 1, but a few ripples "as made"
3) had a single counting crease but was otherwise UNC
4) had two counting creases but was otherwise UNC
5) had three counting creases but was otherwise UNC

According to the catalogue, number 1 and number 2 would be the same, and both worth $1,000.  See the problem?

Also notice that numbers 3, 4, and 5 above are all "identical" by the current grading standards and would be classified as AU, each with a book value of $500.  Of course, we can all see the folly of that system.  Who wouldn't want number 3 over number 5 if both were offered at the same price?

A more precise method of grading would only help the hobby, as long as it were universally accepted.  As I have said before, the grading system in use should fit the notes in question, not the other way around.

Seth I agree as well with you.
It is not just someone saying it, the fact is that it is actually a GRADING COMPANY that has this on their note holder  .  I don't remember which one it is but if I find the picture... (it was not on ebay).  It is this fact that caused me to start this thread.  

Anyway, I find that alarming!  We all know about the caution of the "choice" description on ebay with a bad picture lol... buyer beware right?   If the slabbed notes are what is in demand, but they use terms like this, then this is not good.  
Maybe I am wrong, but Choice (and GEM) were reserved for notes that were excessivly perfect - like it is UNC, but it is so nice that it is beyond UNC.

I just cannot see how slabbing notes with words like CHOICE VF will do anything good.  
Please more opinions, this is kind of serious, since many new collectors are apparantly turning to slabbed notes.

This is a matter of great concern to many,obviously controversial.

I purchased a PGM Unc 68 DF from Don O.I wonder what that would be,Choice,Gem,.....

Must tell you paid quite the premium for the note,but I also sell at large premiums.Seems the market is strong,but glad I don't have to make a living doing it

IMO I think that if the drop in price from an Unc note to an Au note wasn't 40 or 50% that we really wouldn't have this problem. People would then be less inclined to overgrade. Half of the Unc notes out there are probably Au anyways.

remember, it's just my opinion

Scott

Interesting observation only4teeth.

But doesn't that statement "Half of the Unc notes out there are probably Au anyways." assume something that is unproven,or are there stats on this?
Mine better not be or there's alotta hel to pay!lol.
I buy only Unc notes(or so I think!!) :-/
 

LOL, sorry, what I meant to say is that alot of people just don't know how to grade. Half might be stretching it. I might even be one of them.   It was about two years ago when I learned  to hold a bill up to the light to check it. I used to just check by feel. I had to replace a good portion of notes that I bought when I started collecting.

Whew! I'll recap the bottle of pills LOL!

Whew! I'll recap the bottle of pills LOL!

What? No high buildings around??    

Why doesn't the Bank of Canada make special notes for the collector like the mint makes "proof" coin sets. I.e., they could make special printing plates that are flawless, carefully control all levels of printing and production, cutting. Notes wouldn't be bundled they would be cut perfectly and handled by a person with gloves as somebody suggested or a machine to put them in special sealed cases or covers. Also ensure there is no way the notes get damaged in any way during the whole production sequence when the note is made. Frankly, I get new notes from the ATM and that's good enough for me to keep a few that I consider UNC. I don't care if the foil part rippled the note a bit or the security thread made a slight indent in the side of the note. As long as it doesn't have any creases, folds and sharp corners and fresh looking, that's good enough.

I think that's what the lasting impression sets were for. We all know how poorly that turned out.

LOL ya the biggest rip off who didnt get taken there?  

O.K. then how would everybody like the Bank of Canada to start printing 1935/1937 and 1954 DF series again for the collector? They could print the complete series again for collectors. All serial numbers would have the original first issue prefixes with all zeros, and in the boarder of each note on the front and back have "CBNC or BNABN company 2006" and maybe another slightly altered aspect of the note to tell it's a reprint. All in UNC perfectly centered, would anybody be interested in buying those notes? They would use the same plates, ink, but paper would be different, again to tell the original notes from the reprints. The paper might be 50/50, 50 cotton, 50 pulp or they could put a watermark in the notes not found in the originals or use blue/gren or red security threads embeded in the paper instead or green planchetts.

Then you collect all those rare notes without having to spend a fortune for the originals. They could sell the notes 25% above face, or they could issue the notes as single sided proof like sets that are printed only on one side, you get the front and backs to each note. On the back the note would say non-negotiable" or watermarked like that, or not legel tender/specimen, then if that was the case, the notes could be bought below face value, i.e. buy the 1935 $1000 for $25 bucks. But the note would not be legal tender.

I don't care if the foil part rippled the note a bit or the security thread made a sligh indent in the side of the note. As long as it doesn't have any creases, folds and sharp corners and fresh looking, that's good enough.

I hear ya d_polo  

For myself, I consider two variables.
1) Is the note in question in an "as issued" state. Would a reasonable person, ( me  :-/ ), agree the note is of the general quality of when it is released into a private citizens hands.

2) Never been mis-handled by both the public (should be obvious) , or the issuing authority (bank branch). Is the said note in at least equal condition as majority of other new notes when first handed from a teller to the public.

My view of run of the mill basic UNC. Just the way I see it, right or wrong  

This is a great topic but seams likes it’s heading in an other direction

I believe 3rd party grading is a great way to get full value out of your notes. As for the previous comments of bidding lower on these notes, I would do just the opposite. My reason being that 3rd party grading such as PMG does not favor sellers. So if you buy a VF note then you know what to expect when it arrives. I have been burnt a couple times by over graded notes and I see this as a good solution. Secondly, this is also great to identify halfway grades such as Fine + and about EF.

I have yet to see “choice” on grades like VF and do not really know its significance but I do know that EPQ “Exceptional Paper Quality” which usually appears on notes EF and up command a fair premium. The GEM prefix should only be used on UNC notes. The US has also adopted the practice of paying 10% more for every point over UNC 60.

Here is a senario for you.  

I buy a  unc 68 from a third party but the note when I grade it  is unc 63.  I paid 20 percent more on the note because I assumed by the third party that it is "perfect, Perfect".  If we are talking about spending $2000  on a note and we find that it is only Unc 63 we lost $400.  Will the next person who buys the note  not use their own grading for it?

On the other hand  If we as the CPMS had a standard practice of grading notes, we could show that with power by educated  numbers that the dealers will have to look at us seriously and the third party group will have to follow suit  to stay in business.  If I had a perfect note and I went to a third party member,  I sure to heck want the unc 68 mark of approval.  I means more $$ into my pocket.  

As for  issuing special mint sets for the "Collectors only"  The beauty is to see notes that have been around for years.  If I buy a 1935 Note and it is in Unc,  Well I can tell my daughter that is 71 years old .  Giving a "collectors note"and  just charging a few bucks is already in existance.   You will see at some banks that they have a whole series of 35's to modern day.  These are just photocopies of the notes and they are quite expensive it I heard correctly

Realize the fundamental of collecting.  To  appreciate, educate and communicate.  To find the notes that everyone has seen and to get that beatiful note That has a history

I think I said my two cents

Polarbear

I agree with  "kid_kc" comments regarding the certain luxury/security of having 3rd party graded notes.  

However, on the down-side, it is indeed driving the prices of rare notes up, and relegating a lot of decent regular issued (non-inserts / not particularly rare) UNC notes into the "junk bin"  As "Rachel-P" has posted earlier ...this is what happened to the coin market, and it is a sad result of third party grading.  I used to be very pro-3rd party grading...but I have noticed (at shows) that "R_P" is correct in his assessment.  3rd party grading has hurt the coin hobby...it could do the same to the paper money hobby.  

I also noticed a major dealer (we all know) seems to be currently adopting this policy of 3rd party grading (on eBay) and all his notes are being bid up another 20% above book.  Mostly its other dealers who are bidding on his 3rd party graded notes.  Where does that leave the avg collector??? :-/

I remain undecided as to the merits of 3rd party grading and the so-called MS scale... I think it only benefits those dealers with a large inventory.  The gains will likely be short term.  I can't imagine it enticing new collectors, but maybe I'm wrong.  Perhaps (if nothing else) it may attract American and other world collectors.  The jury is still deliberating.... :-/

Okay here is the note. Perhaps they were muddling the word "Choice" to mean "+", or "almost the next grade.  BUT isn't that what the number is for to begin with?

I am not disclosing the site where I found this.

If I had the time to do it, I would grade all my notes professional by "Hudson AB services" and get a great premium on them too. I would have them looked over by a panel- and NOT just me (you guys know I am shakey at times in grading). Anyway... I would be rich, my notes would be worth more, and that would be that. The PERFECT business plan. (That is true but in a  sarcastic voice). It is true that they are becoming more popular...but at least let us keep our words in line.  I am just a bit discouraged.

[attachment deleted by admin]

I believe 3rd party grading is a great way to get full value out of your notes. As for the previous comments of bidding lower on these notes, I would do just the opposite. My reason being that 3rd party grading such as PMG does not favor sellers. So if you buy a VF note then you know what to expect when it arrives. I have been burnt a couple times by over graded notes and I see this as a good solution. Secondly, this is also great to identify halfway grades such as Fine + and about EF.

Correct, third party grading does not favour the sellers. They favour themselves! The more they over grade the more notes you send them to grade - thus the more profit they make. Sad, yes. True, well decide for yourselves.

A simply theory has been brought to my attention. If you like the note, buy it. Don't get hung up on at the terms used to describe them. The pitfall of this theory is that you cannot look at the note if it is in a different province (either from a fellow collector or ebay). My solution to this is to continue purchasing from the individuals (even ebayers) that you know and trust. Then you have nothing to worry about and you can trust your purchase.

Evening all !

I will post a few comments and sneak away to Maine for a few days in case I get savaged badly...

There is no escaping the rise and considerable preference of 3rd party grading. But is like grading period - you need to educate yourself. Some coin grading companies are known to be too generous in their grades and their products sell at a discount. Same will be true for notes. It is already is, really, as some US grading companies are know to be tougher in their grading and hence their notes sell better and for higher prices. Just the same as grading by dealers, no different.

I put several PMG-graded notes on eBay last week to see what would happen, an experiment. I have not had a chance to really analyze the results but first impression was a good rate of selling; significantly higher prices than if I graded them myself and a fair numbrer of bidders. All in all, an affirmation that AT LEAST FOR SOME COLLECTORS, the third-party graded notes are more desireable. I recognized one dealer as a uyer and it was a common DF note so i guessed he expected to sell it for somewhat more than I wanted. I suspect this will hold true in the future and the % that prefer graded notes will increase. Anyone disagree ??

In the end, some times the bitter end, collectors must educate themselves in grading. I have many, many stories from collectors who learned how to use the light correctly coming back to the next show despressed about how few UNCs they really had in their collection. Better to learn later than never.

Third-party graded notes are NOT A GUARANTEE, just an opinion. Rely too heavily on nthat opinion as opposed to your experienced opinion and you will lose.

OleDon

I guess we are seeing the issue. Many of us have different definitions of what Choice should mean.
Rachelsprivates: You are probably way more versed in coins than I, so I will take your word on the Choice meaning... but as ofthis day in SK or AB I have never witnessed it. I started on coins (for about 10 years) before notes too.  Just saying perhaps it could be a regional thing (either side)??

ALL the midgrading that I had seen followed the numbering system.  Choice would have been an unneccessary adjective, since mid grades were always accompanied by a number, ie VF-35.

If we could come together some how on what CHOICE should mean, maybe that would be a good thing?

Hudson

It is in the Charlton like that?  I did not know that at all.
Thank you for bringing that to my attention.
Since that is the case, I think it would be acceptable to also use the same wording for banknotes as well (as long as we are using the Charlton standards).  I didn't know it was part of it, so this puts a different spin on things.
Thank you for the education, rachelsprivates.  

I was fairly critical of it at first because I thought it was just some group who started something that they invented themselves, when really it is an extension... of what is already part of the Charlton family.

Even for UNC then, CHOICE UNC would mean "better than the average UNC" sort of thing.  THIS particular type of CHOICE note, would also be GEM.    
Am I getting this straight Rachelsprivates??

Please inform

As I stated earlier, 3rd party grading benefits:
 
#1) the grader or grading company (who charge for their services)
#2) the seller since the note is almost "ensured" to be a minimum grade-- hence commanding a greater price (mind you the note cost him/her to have graded) and sure to sell
#3) the buyer who has the assurance that the note is of a certain grade but pays a premium for such assurances.

As we know by the fact that some of our leading note dealers are accepting this policy as standard practice-- it will change the hobby.  Since this seems inevitable, perhaps its a "wake up call" for some of us to get those hard to find notes before they get priced out of reach!

I would also like to know from the dealers who do use 3rd party grading -- which company do they recommend and why?

Yes thank you very much on the clarification Rachelsprivates.

I have seen it myself that many of the leading eBay dealers are using 3rd party grading and for the moment seams to be working at their advantage. It does come at an extra cost to the dealers but the note also receives a premium. So in the end the notes which you paid premium might appreciate faster. For the moment this tactic is used to lure in investors. On my part, if I had the money to get all my notes 3rd party graded I might try it but if only to confirm that my VF is a VF20 then I don’t see the point. I would do it for notes that might grade higher on the scale or to have them confirmed at “about AU” (EF45). Although this might prove more often disappointing then encouraging? As far as what companies to use well I see PMG’s name on most of the Canadian paper money notes and seams to be praised by those who use it.