Private note grading ruining the hobby?

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

It's an opinion piece for sure.

http://www.give-a-buck.com/closet/essay/editorial18.html

 

2 weeks ago I had the opportunity to see 2 Canadian notes graded by the same company. One was graded Fine 15 and the other AU 55. As the notes were sealed, I tried to grade them with a 100 watt light behind the holders.

My opinion....

Fine 15.....  I would grade this as an Original F+
AU 55........ Washed and pressed, corners rounded, 3 vertical folds and would grade it as Pressed VF

Collectors should always grade notes themselves even with third party grading.

justeo

I'm not an expert but I'll trust my own grading over a 3rd party's any day!  I've never bought a slabbed note but all the AU55's I see scans of look very sad indeed.

I just feel bad for all the poor collectors paying 40% EXTRA for an UNC64 note when they are really getting something that's not even Unc by canadian numismatic standards. Once everyone goes and gets their AU notes graded as Unc64 and they flood the market, I think it's obvious what will happen to the value of these notes.

Charlton will just have to replace the AU column with Unc 63-64 and the EF column with UNC60 and so on in their next issue.

Unless 3rd party grading actually attracts new collectors into the hobby, all they will do is suck $$ OUT Of the market for Canadian Paper money. Prices will only go as high as collectors are willing to pay and if they are willing to spend their money on grading, that is that much less to go towards the value of the notes themselves.

Agreed.

I certainly see both sides.
I wrote an extensive opinion in another thread-not one comment.

Here's an interesting occurrence.A recent public auction saw my wife buy 11 lots from ebay live auctions.All notes were ungraded.If you have read any of the prior posts I wrote on grading you will be aware my wife has been a rather large buyer of graded paper,much to my chagrin.
The notes arrived 1 day before we left for Puerto Vallarta,she examined them and was doubtful of several grades assigned in the catalogue to 7 lots. Humbling herself(she'd kill me for that remark),she asked my opinion.After forming my thoughts I called a good friend and CPMS memeber.
Turns out he and I both agreed 6 lots were over graded.

Two of the lots were described as GEM UNC,with one of those lots having a pressed note,although lightly.Another lot was an Original Unc that was trimmed,even a blind man would have figured that out.

We returned the notes with no problems but she was very disappointed,one note a rare solid 9999999 1954 $5.00 note would have been here pride and joy.She would have paid a total of $1300 for that note had we not discovered the over grading.She would have also been divorced,lol! :-/

This dealer and I have had many great  mutually rewarding transactions.In no way am I denigrating them. Yet,they do take consignments from who knows who that thinks they are grading experts or shysters.Which one is anyones guess.

In conclusion,my wife kept 5 lots and stated"Now you know why I buy graded paper money if I have not viewed the note".

Hard to argue with that logic,no? :-/

As I stated previously,whether we like it or not,for various reasons I think the hobby is heading this way.I do not like it but then again,who cares what I like?
I don't like 600k for a 1000sqft apartment in Vancouver but it is what it is.

RP,
Only my opinion for now and that could very well change if/when the time comes I add high end notes.
Medium priced notes I would not care.

For the cost of certifying I don't see the big deal. One can cut it out of the holder after. I sense the high value ebay seller is going that way and watch to see how Don's PMG experiment goes. Wait for his next catalogue I guess.

When I read about a high value auction offering note, that is 'described' as UNC , I do ask myself "were they afraid to get it certified".

Just a small minnows opinion.

This subject has been beat to death,with many wishing the old ,many wishing the new(graded).I'm surprised the moderators have not stepped in to stop a rehashing of the same subject in new threads over and over.At the risk of flogging a dead horse then:

rachelsprivates wrote-

Judging by the responses above, it doesn't sound like private money grading is popular or wanted.

Do you really believe 8 posts on the CPMF forum constitute public desire to have graded paper money?
A forum with 300 members? If all 300 members posted their dislike of 3rd party grading do you really believe that would be an accurate gauge of market dybnamics towards this subject?
What of International interest,what of buying notes unseen like the example I gave of a recent experience my wife had?

So why is it inevitable then?  Who are the people foisting it on us?  And what can we do to change their minds?

I do not think, again just my opinion,it's "inevitable".But with International pressure on our notes,buying sight unseen,grading gives a certain level of comfort to those International buyers,wouldn't you agree?
Who are the people foisting it on us? Paper Money Buyers? Dealers?Collectors?

And what can we do to change their minds?

Nothing short of banning 3rd party grading.And why would we want to change their minds?
Is it about price with you or others who buck this trend(again I do not like it,but I accept it).
What is so wrong with credible 3rd party grading services,except a personal distaste for them?I like to feel my notes ect,but like everyone I have mis graded a note or 2 in the past.So will grading companies now and then.But it seems as the hobby expands,we need checks and balances,imperfect as they may be.
Stands to reason in my mind that it sure beats every Tomm,Dyck,Rob,and Jo Ann that fancies themselves experts and sells notes as such.
I can not begin to tell you the number of times I have been taken by improper grading via dealers,ebay,collectors.Would I have been spared 1000's of dollars had those notes been graded.maybe not to the full dollar value,but surely better off than I am.

Obviously the people supporting it are not posting here  

Again with 300 members,and dare I say,thousands of International collectors of Canadian Paper money,it is doubtful many are even aware of this site,Heck I can list 10 Canadian Paper Money Collectors in Canada that are not aware of this Forum.

Not trying to be confrontational,there are many sides to this story.But to dismiss 3rd party grading out of hand seems irresponsible.They exist for a reason.The public eventually catches on to any scam or ponzi scheme.They/it then fade away.

rachelsprivates-just curious.You've posted in a variety of ways regards this subject.Why so resistant to this,is their more to this I'm missing? As a fairly new member maybe I have not seen your reasoning times past?

Regards,Robert

PS_Why am I in Mexico posting on the CPMF ?Well,the sun goes down about 8 oclock.I'm sunburnt,thats when I will go play! 8-)

doug62

When I read about a high value auction offering note, that is 'described' as UNC , I do ask myself "were they afraid to get it certified".  

Now there is a question that will preoccupy my thoughts b4 buying Unc again.lol!

But it is a question that deserves an answer

in fact,  when I see `certified' i wonder `is he hiding behind the cover."

I guess, some of us, including me, have been too harsh on this certification stuff.  It is just that
a, is it necessary ? after all we have been without this for years, and there have not  been any big flops.  b,  is the third party credible ? who is  this 3rd party ?  If I pay for the thing, I am sure I am entitled to higher grade (I am sure customer is always right)
3,  this number stuff, i really do like.  Why 60 ?  are we waiting for 70. 80, 90 ? why not start with 80, and the perfect one is 99 ?  

Cheers

This is about knowing your seller.
2inV makes that clear- you buy a note from someone you don't know- you are taking a risk.  If you are uncomfortable with that risk, then hold off on it until you can see it, or have someone you trust and know make a statement on it in your behalf.

Many have seen "Olmstead UNC" or  C&P "UNC", and we know what we are getting (or COULD get) from either.
I could go on and on... we have all dealt with many people and know how they grade.

Know thy seller.  The 11th commandment.  

As far as stopping it, vote with your wallet.  

A paralell now, look at what has happened to stocks since e-trading has started.  An influx of amateur investors all trying to find the next best thing for investment purposes.  What is happening? Some people win, and some people lose their shirts, because in their search for easy money, they do not educate themselves.  Just something to think about.

There are many coin dealers that do not deal with certified material, and they do it by choice, and they are fine without it.  Paper can be the same.  It is all about what you want to collect or spend your money on.  It is good for me because every note that gets slabbed means that there is one less note I will be choosing from when I buy.  Makes shopping a little easier in theory for me. (Just have no money to shop) lol

Just my 2 cents + 2 cents

Hey I dont know where this note would pass as a AU note not going to say where I go these pictures....

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Yes, looks like a bad job Archey80. Owner should insist on re-submitting.

Only time will tell, though I'm of the belief 3rd party will eventually be the norm. Much like coinage.
Of course all the ones who press, wash, alter, etc., will fight tooth and nail saying "we dont need this". Gee, thanks for looking out for my best interests.
I have no ulterior motive on this subject, own no graded notes yet, nor am a seller.

What we need(impossible prob) is population counts. Hell even US charters I think know outstanding $$ amounts.

 

anyone else concerned??

 I'm concerned !! I've been collecting notes for almost 20 yrs. There was no 3rd party graded notes back then. You pulled it out of the holder, held it to the light, flipped it over. And if you were happy with the assigned grade, you'd buy it. If you thought it was over graded, you'd point out the flaw(s) to the seller, & hopefully he'd sell it to you for the next lowest grade. And if he didn't agree, I'd put it back. Unless it was one that I REALLY wanted.   :-?   My thought's only.    Darcy