Private note grading ruining the hobby?

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A grading comitee would not be a full time job for a while. Having more then 3 volonteers (paid) would ensure availability of the minimum amount of graders when needed. Rest assure most people are willing to wait a bit for quality grading, only dealers are a bit more interested in getting material swiftly. So even if you can't be available all the time, one or 2 evenings or one day a week might prove sufficient for a while.

Personnaly, it is not a requierement to have multiple graders, I know my abilities at it. The opinions expressed here show the desire to have multiple graders and I am open to it. Should I decide to start grading paper money and no group of graders are found, I would simply go ahead alone.

I think it could be interesting to have a grading team approved by the CPMS grading according to upgraded standard of the CPMS. When I write "upgraded standard" I simply mean not just G, VG, F. VF, EF, AU & UNC. I don't necessarily want to add numbers but mid grade such as VF/EF are needed in many case. 2 or 3 degrees of UNC can be looked upon also.

Here are more ideas to discuss. Feel free to express on them.

Louis

The Olmstead people have a list of available notes for sale, they comment on new unc grades that are like coin grading MS62, MS63, MS64 and the like. My question although simple is WHY, why do we need more grades, I think I know. I prefer the old grading system and the use of midgrades, simple any fold, mark, rip, even counting fold it is not UNC

Mike

I looked at 3 graded notes today at Torex. The dealer selling them just asked me to grade them. One was Unc. 62, we both called it EF+, The one graded AU-50, we both called it VF, and the one marked EF, we both called it Fine plus a bit. In all cases, the selling dealer had the same grade as me, and told would-be clients that all three were overgraded.

Gets right back to it, the holders this company used did not impend another person from grading the note, The CAND dealer showed professional integrity by telling buyers that they were overgraded. The price he sold them for was based on his cost and his idea of grading. All they had become is decent notes in a slightly fancy holder with a written grade that was utter meaningless. All three notes were 1937 $10 Osbourne.

Rick

I liked the essay, found it informative. I think a note with any marks, folds, bends, creases or what ever can not be unc. Some veteren dealers have told me that counting folds, fuzzy corners are allowed in unc notes, so they mark them unc and price accordingly. Actually as I have been networking with dealers around the globe I really have been told an awful lot of different things about grading notes. This gives some creditbility to TPG.

I see how newer coinage that is TPG in ms-65 or higher is bringing huge money for the seller. The newer banknote is not far behind. Is it not just a money maker for the seller, and maybe there is nothing wrong with this, considering we are all capitalist in some way.

I think I will go out the bank and buy some rolls, I mean blocks of notes to search.
Mike

Also don't forget that some buyers want the EPQ designation. Majority of PMG work seems to be within this area IMO.

the holders this company used did not impend another person from grading the note

Neat!  I've heard many people say that the holders used by many companies make judgements of grade difficult to impossible.  Were the three notes original or pressed/washed?

All they had become is decent notes in a slightly fancy holder with a written grade that was utter meaningless.

Indeed, meaningless to someone who knows how to grade.

Actually as I have been networking with dealers around the globe I really have been told an awful lot of different things about grading notes. This gives some creditbility to TPG.

In concept, I agree.

I cannot tell if the note is washed, cleaned or pressed inside a third party holder. Many people cannot tell at any rate. If the cleaning etc. is well done, no one can tell at any rate. Removing the note from the cheap holder causes more damage anyway. I seldom deal in high priced or high grade notes, but I do buy and sell a lot of common notes that go into sets for a specialized market. Perhaps some readers have seen the sets of $1, 1937, 1954, 1967 and 1973. I do not have the time to pull every note, and need to judge the grade from appearance inside the holder. 1937's need to be Fine, without marks or rips or crayons. 1954's need to be VF, 1967's and 1973 need to be AU-Unc, without major folds. I put together sets of notes that look good. 1937 2$, and $5 are often offered to me that I must turn down due to damage in the paper.

After all, banknotes are just paper, and subject to wear and folding much more than coins. PVC damage is often apparent, and this type of note should be spent unless an extreme rarity. Bret is offering to purchase Mylar holders for notes. This is the best method to preserve banknotes, and is well worth the price.

Rick

Just as any two collectors/dealers will rarely be able to agree on the exact grade of a note so too any two grading companies will rarely be able to agree on the exact grade of a note.

We all know that many people remove "undergraded" coins from their certified holders and resubmit them to the same grading company (or to another one) in the hope of obtaining a higher grade because an MS64 coin is often worth two or three times the price of its MS63 counterpart. The same sort of thing is sure to happen with paper money.

Most "true" collectors, i.e., those who are driven more by interest in the hobby itself than by profit motives, invariably prefer to view and inspect their notes without being prevented from doing so by the presence of a plastic sheath (after all, collecting is a "tactile" hobby in which touching is a definite part of the pleasure). Also, most collectors will want to be able to verify that a certified note is what it actually purports to be and that can only be achieved by examining the note out of its holder (N.B. coins are much easier to view and assess through a plastic holder than notes are). In particular, the natural sheen and vibrancy of an original undoctored/unpressed note become invisible once a note has been entombed in plastic.

And let us not forget that the certification companies use real human beings rather than unbiased high-tech optical machines to grade both coins and notes! Human beings have an annoying habit of getting tired, losing interest in their work-related duties, making careless errors, and making different decisions based on how they feel on a particular day . Personally speaking, I have seen far too much inconsistency between different grading companies (and also within the same companies over a period of time) to have any real long-term confidence in "certified grading". However, I accept that it's here to stay.

I have never ever sent an item out for grade certification myself but I'm sure to do it one day. However, if I ever do, it will not be because I cannot grade myself but because I know that I'll be able to sell my Mint State Red Canadian Large Cent or my Gem Unc Devil's Face note at a higher price on eBay ...  

I've just returned from a three-week trip to Malaysia and was interested to see that the latest Malaysian paper money catalogue now defines two grades of UNC. It's becoming apparent that the notion that there can be more than one degree of UNC is catching on outside of North America ....  

I've attached a scan of the Malaysian definitions below --- it's interesting that there is no AU category. However, this is quite logical in my opinion. After all, if you have several degrees of UNC then there's really no need for an ABOUT UNC grade since the lowest degree of UNC on the new scale should (logically) be synonymous with the AU grade on the old scale!. You would merely go straight to EF after the lowest degree of UNC.

Why on earth do we want to clutter up the grading scale with several degrees of UNC and with several degrees of ABOUT UNC??

[attachment deleted by admin]

This is interesting- they define two grades of UNC - probably a good idea (ie for setting notes with and without cutting cups or ripples for example, given all else same).  
But to define regular UNC with terms that are otherwise AU (according to ours anyway) to me is an act of pure deception, smoke and mirrors.

Call a spade a spade.

There are notes being sold that are TPG at shows, but being sold at a discount with an attatched caveat regarding how they are OVER graded??  Shouldn't this tell us somethings?
a) learn to grade yourself
b) there are people trying to make a profit off of your lack of knowledge
c) the given TPG means absolutely nothing (or is a source of caution) to hobbysists who have taken the time to learn how to grade (or even read the grading guide at the beginning of the book)

Given these three scenarios, how can we, the hobbyist body with good intentions, stand for TPG grading when this is the kind of things we get!
I disagree with any notion that the notes should be TPG by ONE member (sorry) but in order to maintain consistency and integrity to the grade as something special and accurate (and one that should be PAID for), there NEEDS to be a panel.

Even if TPG grades are dead-on, but are done alone, the percieved consistency is not there.  Thus undermining the integrity - EVEN THOUGH, the grade might be correct.  

IMO: THERE NEEDS to be a PANEL, even a rotating one, of solid accurate graders.  And even then, it still never totally removes the problem of Overgrading, but if they are held accountable to their grades, like having their name placed on the holder below the grade as the "Grader(s)", then perhaps the overgrading would cease.  Everyone would know if someone was trying to rip someone off then - and the graders personal reputation for grading would be at stake.

Q Posed to anyone:
Would YOU put your name on an intentionally overgraded note if you had to take responsibility for it by name?
Would YOU put your name on an intentionally overgraded note if you knew that it would destroy the confidence that others have in your in grading and as a well intentioned hobbyist (yes or even businessperson)?

Jury duty??  

That is one way to get really harshly graded notes (and proabably accurately graded too), to make it a public service that is provided free of charge for fellow collectors much as scientific journals send articles out for peer-review. Reviewers are not reimbursed for their time spent reviewing submissions.

Does that mean any collector who submits a note for grading must then participate in a rotating pool of graders to be called upon in the future to grade notes?  In the academic world, that is how it works for manuscripts sent out to 2-3 reviewers. Sometimes the reviewers may not know too much about the subject at hand and not give a very critical review.  

No and no, but then these are quite stilted questions.  Even the people who are selling TPG notes would not answer "yes".  Every day, people sell TPG coins and notes without questioning the grade on the holder because they know potential buyers will not listen to an "unprofessional opinion" if there's a "professional opinion" for the same piece.

What I meant by this was "Graded By XYZ note Grading Company, by the panel Mr (name), Mr. (name), and Mr. (name)."  So it would be under the professional grading umbrella, but would also attatch names.

And maybe this panel of graders could be people who are well traveled and known in the circiut, and who would put in a couple hours at some major shows at a grading table (with a panel) for people who had some serious notes to get TPG'd. Of course, there would have to be a fee to be charged for their time.  Just an idea...?  

That idea would
a) prevent people from having to send them off and risk loss in mail
b) demonstrate commitment on behalf of the TPG'ers in my opinion.
c) increase the percieved integrity of it by having a panel of more than one professional grader

I believe that if there was a pre-scheduled list of notes that people submitted to have looked at for a grade, for TPG-ing, then the TPG-ers could do it after show hours, thus not cutting into their selling floor time.  Logistics and selling floor procedures and security I have no idea about though. There could be a fee charged for time, and then everyone walks away happy. (in theory lol)
Secondly, the more notes you have offered to grade, the more money you the grading company (as a panel) would make. So on a business side, I could start a grading company, hire 3 people who are well known and accurate, and have then go at it for accepting notes to be graded from walk ups (for a fee) or from appointments.  Then the money could be split 3 ways, after i take my commission for masterminding the whole ordeal.
Now, if anyone wants to take this idea and run with it, be my guest, but be responsible.  It is posed here as a possibility and or a solution that would beneifit many, (since TPG seems to be here to stay).

 In the academic world, that is how it works for manuscripts sent out to 2-3 reviewers. Sometimes the reviewers may not know too much about the subject at hand and not give a very critical review.  

I would hope that if this was the case, the members reviewing would be approved by maybe a vote by the CPMS members or something like that.  Like the "Approved Grading Personel" would be a handful of top notch people who have been elected by their peers for their superiority in grading.  That way, if talking about the CPMS for example, then there is a democracy about it, and the people can choose to vote from a list of people who choose to let their name stand if nominated.  
Gets a little muddy-but it would just take some organization.  
Then a TPG note could say on the holder "CPMS Approved Grading Personel".

In this way, I think graders would feel more accountable for their grades, and more accountable to the people.  Thus- building up of trust and faith in the TPG notes, graded by "CPMS Approved Grading Personel".  It could also be named as part of the Institutions section of the Charlton on the third page in.  
At a time where there is HUGE change going on, and new standards being fabricated out of thin air, with all sorts of colorful descriptions, I believe that something like this would be very good, to essentially return the grading back to a reliable standard.

What do you guys think about this? I am desparately trying to figure out a possible solution that is best for the hobby, that does include TPG.

I have offered to discuss this idea or possibility with member of the CPMS or CPMF, asked to know who in the Montreal region would be interested to work as a grader ( part time and paid ). I had some discussion about it at Torex and got two offers for graders, one around Montreal and one from western Canada.

I recieve no word from board of director of CPMS or any inquieries about that. Now I am not sure there is an interest from the CPMS to see a grading company with their benediction or sponsoring. I hope my english translate what I mean. Many of you don't know much about the economic of a grading company, fonctionning of coin show and other aspect of this type of business, so a lot of thing are said that as commandable as they may be are not viable.

The ANA use to own ANACS and sold it...I wonder why. With all of the comments I read on this thread, the solution is that the CPMS start his own Paper Grading Service, hire some of his members that are reputable, pay them to be present at shows across the country and be liable for the opinion of those graders. Oh! I forgot to mention that in order to cover the cost of this service, grading a note will be $150.00.

PCGS charge between $100.00 to $200.00 US per coin to slab at shows. Moving personal and equipment is very expensive. This is a bit difficult to do. It need to be established somewhere. Now if anybody from the board of the CPMF is going to be present at the Nuphilex Show in Montreal, I would appreciate a visit to my table to discuss this situation and know where the CPMF stands. I need no approval to start grading paper and may do so in the future. I have been offering the possibility to do it in a mannner that would please member here and there is not even a consensus on how it is wanted or if it is even wanted.

Louis

I see an ad in the Coin News for CCGS from Calgary, it seems we already have a grading company doing TPG of notes. Is there a reason why people who want their notes graded, do not just send them to this company?
Mike

CCGS is a highly respected company, the grading is generally conservative and honest. The owner is well known, and will shortly be a CAND member. He has more credentials than other Canadian companies and keeps a data base on submissions that is available for viewing. The turnover time for submissions is short, the cost is reasonable.

To have a panel of "experts" review the note being graded for no payment is unrealistic, it won't happen.

Rick