Private note grading ruining the hobby?

News: Registration is free here at the CPMF!

I think that is a great offer, Louis.  Now the people in charge need to act on that (I hope something happens in some way).
H

I would like to add just a short note re third party grading especially from the USA. It came to my attention about a month ago, that someone I knew was getting a note graded per their PMG standards. This particular note was graded AU by this person in question. Why is he getting it graded in Florida. He told me quite simply that the note will come back Unc 63 for sure. I need not say that the difference in grade represented for this particular note was a whopping $5000. I dont want Amercian standards for OUR money. I want Canadian standards applied by Canadian graders. Tell me that this is not just my way of thinking and that I am alone in this vision for our hobby.                  Third party grading is a fact of life and inevitable. Lets make it something we can respect and cherish as our own.   Thanks

I would like to add just a short note re third party grading especially from the USA. It came to my attention about a month ago, that someone I knew was getting a note graded per their PMG standards. This particular note was graded AU by this person in question. Why is he getting it graded in Florida. He told me quite simply that the note will come back Unc 63 for sure. I need not say that the difference in grade represented for this particular note was a whopping $5000. I dont want Amercian standards for OUR money. I want Canadian standards applied by Canadian graders. Tell me that this is not just my way of thinking and that I am alone in this vision for our hobby.                  Third party grading is a fact of life and inevitable. Lets make it something we can respect and cherish as our own.   Thanks

I absolutely agree.

I agree as well.

Anyone can exploit this unethical opportunity.  And sadly, it has been done.

freedomschoice has summed it up in the best possibile way that I could imagine.
I guess the trade-off of being concerned for the well-being of the hobby is belonging to a "scarcely civilized online forum".   That is a cross I am happy to carry (please excuse the use of religeous metaphor).

I have never met a group of more civilized and classy individuals.  Yes- some of us have differences, but we see past it to focus on common direction - love of the hobby and Canadian history.  



Here is another post from this individual (who rachelsprivates quoted).  Let us not forget-- temptation to exploit might have occured after this point, this post below was put ON THIS FORUM on: Oct 04th 2005 at 08:02:10.  Back at this point, there was healthy discussion on how we could PREVENT a TPG system from sweeping the hobby - by having the system gradually eased in.  
If you read the posts by this individual, you will see that it is purely market and profit driven.   Canada was simply the next market to exploit.  


 

Hi guys,
 
As Don hinted at this is an area for some healthy debate. For the issues from the years that Don mentioned (without counting creases) I do not automatically assume and label as gem as Don indicated he does when they don't have evidence of being counted. This is of course regarding this portion of his post: "issues referred to that do NOT have a counting crease are scarce GEM notes that deserve a 20-25% preium over the catalogue."
 
They may get a "Choice UNC" from me but would need to be essentially a perfect note in every way to earn a "GEM" label.
 
Anything from the years he mentioned with a single counting crease as its only flaw will get AU/UNC from me.
 
As you saw in another thread I like these two definitions of GEM and Choice.
 
Gem Uncirculated (Gem Unc) (UNC-65)  
A note that is flawless, with the same freshness, crispness, and bright color as when first printed. It must be perfectly centered, with full margins, and free of any marks, blemishes, or traces of handling.  
  
Choice Uncirculated (Ch Unc) (Unc-63)  
An Uncirculated note that is fresher and brighter than the norm for its particular issue. Almost as nice as Gem Uncirculated but not quite there. Must be reasonably well centered.  
 
I also think a GEM note should be at a premium far above 25% over traditional UNC as my standards for GEM are as above and my experience with USA paper tells me that GEM's are often 2x (or more) than traditional UNC 60's.
 
Having said that if the industry in Canada agreed a GEM note was simply an UNC note without counting creases I would probably agree that a 25% premium should be the max premium considered. I would however continue to disagree with this definition of GEM UNC and aspire to a higher standard - even for issues from the specific years referenced. With the market becoming more international than ever my many USA clients (thank you eBay) are accustomed to the definition of GEM UNC 65 I presented and would not downgrade their expectations of a GEM UNC note to accomodate anything less, regardless of what year was printed on the note.
 
This reminds me....is that grading seminar getting off the ground shortly? I thought it was a fabulous idea that would be appreciated by many.
 
(Name removed)

There is more to be read from him on-line at this time.  

This individual seemed to have the hobby in mind at one point.  His self description as a collector-dealer may be true to the term itself, but a person could really collect only 1 banknote and deal the rest and still have that term associated to the name.  

Recognize the motive, that is all one has to do.  Recognize the motive.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind those who post to please take the high road and not resort to comments or insinuations such as those made elsewhere, including such derogatory remarks as "a scarcely civilized online forum" or "the small minded."

Please remember our forum rules, and why those who fail to remember those rules are no longer welcome here.

Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

Let's have a healthy discussion, and leave the trash talking for the other side.

[size=14]Thank you all![/size][/i]

Recognize the motive

 -- yes and the audience which is primarily International or American.

When I read the above editorial on the insurgence of TPG notes in the hobby I knew immediately who wrote it.  If you ignore the self-congratulatory parts than there's some interesting points made.  I think on the whole that its true that majority (up front accountable CPMS members for example) of the collecting community is trying to maintain more conservative grading practices/standards.  

Other parts of this marketing piece can be readily dismissed because we know the true context (history) and the audience this author is appealing to.  It simply demonstrates the dangers of vainly alienating yourself from the collecting community, of holding one's opinion beyond reproach, and focussing solely on market conditions.

I don't see the discrepency between Canadian grading standards and American TPG as a marketing opportunity.  It may be a reality for those who're on the make (and we know there's always some who will remain somewhat exploitive).

However, I think the bottom line remains that we would be well served by a Canadian TPG co or ogranization.   We all (myself included) seem to be hoping that tradition will prevail (ie our simple Charlton standard to grading) when we know full well how so many other factors (beyond our control) influence our hobby.  We cannot be impervious to the influences of online auctions, the world market, and other factors (including unsavory practices).  A formally recognized (endorsed) Canadian TPG would probably add credibility to our claims of conservative standards, and then would re-assert our standards, and prevent exploitive individuals from capitalizing on any percieved or real differences between our's and American third party graders.

Recognize the motive

I don't see the discrepency between Canadian grading standards and American TPG as a marketing opportunity.  It may be a reality for those who're on the make (and we know there's always some who will remain somewhat exploitive).

Seasoned dealers who are buying stock and sending it there know damm well they are going to get 8-10 grading points higher from a Paper Money Grading Co ( generically speaking ) They use the Sheldon 70 point grading scale and not Canadian Standards. Some will buy them and some won't. The mid-graded stuff is the worst, F-EF.

Ef=VF
VF=F
in general
etc etc

If thats ok with you them buy them.
But I don't accept it and I don't suggest anyone else do either.
Screw the market and whatever else is doing. Stay true to your standards. I won't be hearded out to pasture.
I do this for fun, not retirement income, for retirement income I like Royal Bank Of Canada shares.

I like the idea of 3rd party grading. BUT, grade properly please.
And properly IS what I know and What I want and what I will take.
Just because the American's do it does NOT mean I'm doing it.

Bring on 3rd party grading
But don't give me garbage.

I found this information posted by a US dealer that had the same note graded
by different companies.

Interesting that PMG graded the same note 63 as CGA graded a 60 RESTORED

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Here is another example.

BIG difference between 63+45

I have found this repeatedly with PMG. If it's the odd note then OK. No one is perfect, but they consistently grade too high. Even when compared to that of thier US counterparts.



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I recently purchased this note myself on EBay.
I deliberately picked a lowish value note graded at 65.

When I get it I'm gonna cut it out for examination
You cannot properly grade a note in the holder

I'll report back my findings

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And here's my all-time favourite ..... a PMG AU-50!! OUCH!! PMG's proven inconsistencies in grading, more so than their tendency to overgrade, will eventually destroy confidence in some sectors of the market. For some reason, many buyers believe that the graders who work for these third-party grading companies can do a far better job of grading than you and I. If you truly believe that then you deserve to lose money!

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This is all very unfortunate. Many new collectors, trusting in the third party grading, may be turned off from the hobby after realizing the overpaid on many notes.

My clients (which include most of the top traders of Canadian Currency in the world) and I prefer PMG in Sarasota Florida (www.pmgnotes.com) for 5 reasons: 1) International Focus  2) Best currency holder in the industry. i.e. Notes cannot  be removed from the holder unless it is cut open, advanced security features, and it looks absolutely incredible.  3) Three currency finalizers grade each piece of currency.  There is an expectation here that they will, over the long run, be more accurate than any single dealer or collector will be  4) They use the Sheldon grading scale which is widely accepted as a logical and precise 70 point numeric scale similar in concept to the one used in coins for years with enormous success. 5) The use of the EPQ designation and its criteria to earn this designation. EPQ stands for Exceptional Paper Quality and insofar as my understanding of PMG grading practices remains at a high level it infers 4 things really: 1) the note meets the overall attributes of being an exceptional example for the grade assigned 2) The note is Original and Undoctored 3) Higher than normal % of the Original embossing remains and  4) the paper has firmness better that is better than everage for the grade. The absence of 1 or more of the 4 above will cause PMG not to award the EPQ designation. The absence of EPQ does not however mean that a note has been pressed or altered, instead the note might not meet one of more of the other elements which it requires to earn the EPQ.

... and yet PMG seems to be anything but "accurate" "logical" or "precise" in the assessments of the notes shown above.  At least CGA seems to be more thorough and discriminating.  Makes one wonder if there's a deal being cut between certain TPG companies and certain dealers???  

Yup: Collusion to make the most profit. Pretty much the bottom line.
Edited:
Yup: Collusion to make the most profit. Pretty much the bottom line for SOME.  I should have been more clear.  Andrew M.'s example is refreshing.

I'd be interested to hear from a few of the dealers that use TPG.
Are you in "collusion" with any TPG company for profits?
Does Andrew,who grades CCGS notes post here,under what name? Ive met Andrew at several shows,are we implying he would partake of such nefarious activities?

I do not know Andrew like many of you may,but my impression is he's honourable.