Private note grading ruining the hobby?

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How much more complicated and confusing is TPG going to become?! I still haven't seen a written definition of what constitutes, for example, a PMG AU-55 as opposed to a PMG AU-58. PMG's numerical grades (VF-20, VF-30, VF-35, EF-40, EF-45, AU-50, AU-55, AU-58, UNC-60, UNC-63, UNC-65, UNC-66, UNC-67, etc.) are thrown around all over the place but no one really knows what they mean. At least Mr. McKaig has made a valiant effort to define the numerical grades employed by CCGS.

I believe he is doing a good job, and has the credibility to grade properly and slab the notes to others satisfaction. He is certainly doing a good job on what he knows best, which is Canadian paper. US graders may call them something different, which may be different than Canadian methods. Buy Canadian.

If there is a dispute by a buying member of the public over a grade of a banknote sold by a CAND dealer, we would use this grading company to settle a dispute, just as we use ICCS for coins.

Rick

Here's an interesting PMG UNC-62 note that has come up short on the EPQ front and has earned the dubious "RESTORATION" designation. It's not obvious to me what the restoration refers to although the note has very obviously been trimmed, and poorly trimmed at that. It also has a prominent diagonal fold line at the bottom-left corner in the scan below. It's an Osborne signature and the Buy-It-Now/Best Offer price on eBay is US$53390.00 (Charlton catalogue value in AU is CDN$2500.00).

{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/3/26/Osborne.jpg}

There is a dispute mechanism in place.
The dealer control committee looks after problems, if any. The chair is Bill Merkley of London Coin centre, and members are Willard Burton, Don Olmstead and Yvon Chiccoine. There is a method to follow, and it works.

The DCC looks after problems. If a note was deemed to be overgraded, then the collector would be refunded. There is no other system in place in any organization. CPMS and the CNA do not take any active role in a dispute.

If you see a problem, ask a specific question. I can and will answer it.
We do not have a particular grading method for dealers, just as we do not have a specific return policy, but handle any disputes using professional judgement.

Instead of using CAND dealers with some ethics, continue getting burned by kids selling on eBay, the choice is yours.

Rick

You can forgive me all you want. At least I have the balls to be identified.
It is my function as CAND President to promote our people above others. I will continue to promote and defend our people.
The entire CAND by-laws and constitution is not on our web site, just some of the material is on the site. I also sell on eBay, through the mails and supply a company that sells promotional material. I am also a licensed autioneer and run a show. CAND members include show operators, paper money dealers, coin dealers and bullion dealers. We attempt to cover as many different types as are willing to join us. To be a member, one needs to be voted in place by the entire membership.
We would like to have more members. Problem is there are not that many out there. Far too many with no ethics.
Instead of slamming everyone in the world, try promoting something of value.

Rick

Hopefully bringing this thread back to the topic:

like sellers anywhere: if they want your long-term business, they will try to do things right

1. This is how it shakes out.  Know your seller, and to whose standards they apply their decisions.
2.  There are reasons why some graders are "known" for their grading. Good or bad.  And we the buyers can vote with our wallets.
As rscoins says, Buy Canadian.  I think he means, buy Canadian so that you don't get ripped off by someone working on a different standard.

This has been an excellent thread so far.  To me it appears as though we all understand that there are "sketchy" grades coming out of certain companies, and solid grades coming out of others.
The best we can do is share our knowledge and experience with people so that no one gets exploited.

Peace on earth, and in forum,
Hudson

At the end of the day, when you think about it carefully, it's a great shame that such excessive importance is attached to condition, and that goes for both paper money and coins. Of course an EF is usually preferable to a VF and an UNC is usually preferable to an EF. However, why aren't we just satisfied with an UNC-60 instead of an UNC-63, etc.? Why is it that some people are willing to pay many multiples of the UNC-60 price for the privilege of owning an item having a few less bag marks or handling marks? I still think that it's the "aesthetic grade" (i.e., the overall attractiveness and eye appeal) that will win out in the long run over the "technical grade" (i.e., the quality of the paper alone). Who wants a "technical" Unc note with stains or very narrow margins? Who wants a technical MS-63 copper coin with carbon spots and stains --- and there are lots of those around.

In some respects we are own worst enemies when it comes to the relationship between grading and pricing. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that most human beings tend to be greedy by nature ....... whether we like to admit it or not.

We must never forget that "PERFECTION IS AN IDEAL, NOT A REALITY" (I read these very erudite words on the web site of a well-known eBay seller, and I take no credit for them).

 ......... I still think that it's the "aesthetic grade" (i.e., the overall attractiveness and eye appeal) that will win out in the long run over the "technical grade" (i.e., the quality of the paper alone). Who wants a "technical" Unc note with stains or very narrow margins? Who wants a technical MS-63 copper coin with carbon spots and stains --- and there are lots of those around.

Here are some very refreshing comments that appeared in a March 2007 Banknote Reporter advertisement for the CGA (Currency Grading & Authentication Co.) which is one of the American TPG services. These comments are a real joy to read!

"Currency grading is something acquired only after years of careful examination of all types of paper money."

"Different notes have different characteristics. Paper quality, inks, cutting procedures, all play an important role as to determining grade."

"Grading is not as simple as finding a fold or two." (!!)

However, I prefer to reserve judgment on the following comment:

"When selling CGA material, at auction, on the Internet, I know I can realize 25%-50% more in a C.G.A. graded holder."  


{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/3/30/1174341407842_00.jpg}

A lot of PMG-graded notes have been showing up on eBay in the last few months and they have been appearing in sufficient quantities to allow bidders to get a quantitative feel of the differences between PMG's grading standards and Charlton's grading standards. The scan below illustrates an important example.

This note was graded as GEM UNC-66 EPQ by PMG even though there appears to be a very obvious counting crease at the right-hand side. Whether or not this is a "typical" PMG GEM UNC-66 I don't know for sure but it does seem to confirm the widely-held view that PMG grading standards are far less strict than Charlton grading standards. On the Charlton scale I feel that this note would be an AU/UNC at best. Moreover, there may be other handling marks on this note that are not evident from the scan.

{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/4/12/PMG_UNC66.jpg}

I encourage Forum members to post their own scans to illustrate the differences (or similarities as the case may be) between PMG and Charlton grading standards.

  When I looked on ebay it expired I believe.!  It Didn't actually sell did it?
FRIEDSQUID

A lot of PMG-graded notes have been showing up on eBay in the last few months and they have been appearing in sufficient quantities to allow bidders to get a quantitative feel of the differences between PMG's grading standards and Charlton's grading standards. The scan below illustrates an important example.

This note was graded as GEM UNC-66 EPQ by PMG even though there appears to be a very obvious counting crease at the right-hand side. Whether or not this is a "typical" PMG GEM UNC-66 I don't know for sure but it does seem to confirm the widely-held view that PMG grading standards are far less strict than Charlton grading standards. On the Charlton scale I feel that this note would be an AU/UNC at best. Moreover, there may be other handling marks on this note that are not evident from the scan.

{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/4/12/PMG_UNC66.jpg}

I encourage Forum members to post their own scans to illustrate the differences (or similarities as the case may be) between PMG and Charlton grading standards.

They are very inconsistent. I got a 65 that was great. See earlier post in this thread. I bought a few others that were well graded and a couple that were graded EF45 and AU50 that were just nice VF's

They are very inconsistent. I got a 65 that was great. See earlier post in this thread. I bought a few others that were well graded and a couple that were graded EF45 and AU50 that were just nice VF's

"They are very inconsistent." That's the crux of the matter, isn't it? Without steady reliable grading consistency we might as well rely on the dealer down the street to do the grading. I often get the impression that PMG is not really serious about grading non-US notes (apart from wanting the cash revenue) and that it is not really familiar with non-US paper fabrics. These observations might explain their poor grading consistency.

I have quite a large collection of both large-size and small-size US paper money and I always find it much more difficult to grade US notes than Canadian or world notes. The fabric and other characteristics of US paper are quite distinctive and very unlike Canadian paper.

At the end of the day the TPG grading companies should stick to doing what they're most familiar with and not try to take over the entire world. We would have the same sort of problem if companies that are experts in grading, for example, high-grade Canadian coins were to start grading Ancient Greek and Roman coins, Medieval hammered coins, and the like. What we need is a TPG company that is thoroughly familiar with the nuances of Canadian paper money, that is domiciled in Canada, and that is dedicated to grading Canadian paper money and nothing else.

I have just noticed that a well-known eBay seller of "high-end" US currency has been posting some very interesting scans with his lot descriptions. These scans show some of the huge differences in grade that he has recorded between PMG and other TPG companies for the identical notes.

As an illustration just take a look at the three examples below ...... they're quite frightening to say the least! In the first example PMG says the note in question is a Choice Unc 63 while CGA says it's only EF 45.

{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/5/13/7669_12.JPG}

...... AND HERE'S ANOTHER EQUALLY-FRIGHTENING EXAMPLE!

{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/5/13/b255_12.JPG}

YOU'LL APPRECIATE THIS ONE TOO .....

 ..... and you tell me that you're still willing to actually pay money to have your notes "professionally" graded ... ??!!


{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/5/13/e145_3.JPG}

I have not been collecting for a long time but I have both ungraded and graded notes by PMG.
My first impression was that if there was a third party grading company that would so call "confirm the note was as good as I thought" it would only make it more valuable or saleable to someone who may not be as confident to purchase a note from anyone with some type of confirmation that the note is as good as was described. On the other hand, I have always ONLY bought UNC notes because I did not want anything less. Unfortunately I can no longer afford Unc notes that are missing from my collection so here I sit waiting for my number to come in. I always bought notes that appealed to my eye. Something that looked centered, had good embossing and vibrant colours. I thought if it appealed to me, then it should appeal to others who may purchase them if I would ever sell them. I always did and still do, think this as a hobby that I enjoy.
It is not to turn items over and make a profit, but to enjoy what I have found. Obviously, strange to some but hey, it is my money and I enjoy the hobby. I just wish I had more money!!
So far, I truly feel that the PMG notes I have do indeed look as good as described but I guess I could be bias on this.

To protect new collectors who might be taken in by PMG notes, perhaps we should have a voluntary boycott of all sellers who sell PMG notes?

That, I believe, would separate the boys from the real men in this hobby 

I have bought UNC notes and PMG notes from the same dealer and this was by choice not force. However, in some cases I can honestly say that the charge between a PMG66 or a dealer described UNC 65 of the same high value note was about $50.  In these cases I assume it is probably only covering what the dealer actually paid to get it graded. So either way I don't feel mislead or deceived in any way.

In conclusion, any respectable dealer always give you the option to return the notes so maybe instead of boycotting dealers, just keep returning notes you are not happy with.  If this turns out to be a frequent occurence then I'm sure dealers with stop grading their notes.
Anyways, better check that lotto ticket. Oh yeah never bought one. 

FRIEDSQUID

Oh yeah.  Every once in a while when I need to see what is ahead in my life I go to the thread showing EYEVETS DEVIL REPLACEMENTS.  and drool