Petition to Charlton: City/Province Posting

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I think sending your city and province would be going against the advice given in the "Break-in to Report" thread.
[edit]These posts have been split from the petition thread as they are in opposition to the request made in the initial post to keep it to replies "signing" the petition only. --BWJM.[/edit]

city (if comfortable)

Sensitive info like that could be held in a hidden form on the forum.  (Better yet, offline)

I agree with Hudson.
Anytime a negative proposition like this is offered, I am not in favour. I read the rules, and do not agree with them. Freedom of speech. If one is not in favour, it does not make everyone else need to follow the drift of such a proposal. If you are against Sheldon numbering on grading banknotes, sign up. If you think it is the future, say so with impunity. I am neither in favour or against a newer or different grading terminology used in catalogues, I am against negative propositions like this.

Rick

Agree with Hudson??? He signed the petition, I dont see your signature. Moderators delete the non compliant posts. Thanks

You would never see my name on a negative proposition letter ever.
I had a discussion with a well know contributor over the weekend concerning this letter. He is one of the moderators on this site. What we get and expected is nasty comments from those that don't agree with freedom of choice.

Rick

IMO: this petition may sound negative, but it moreso prophetic.  Nobody wants to hear the truth when it is something they do not agree with, or don't want to change.  Prophetic maybe a really heavy word, but it tells of what could come of the hobby if the current trends continue (in its fracturing ways).

The message of this petition itself I do not consider negative.  I signed it in person at the show, and would do it again in a second.  I have spoken to a couple of moderators also about this thread (before it was posted) regarding the whole back and forth which seems to happen every few months.  The thread was not for that, but was for posting if agreement.

I am free to leave my name (which I did). But the part I would not be comfortable with is posting my city/province etc. No one needs to know that I am from _______ on such and such street. That is what my post was about.

No backlash and nasty messages - though some disagree of course, but some action neededto be taken, and glassman really made a big step for us, in getting this out there.  I whine and complain sometimes....but have not had the time or the thought to make something out of it.  Glassman has.  Now, where we go with this is the question.

I will NOT be posting members locations on the thread. They will be sent along with the petition in the form of a list.
 
Thanks

Suggest you run an actual poll. Not something like, "if you agree with me, sign up, if you don't go away"

The majority of people who take the poll, should dictate wether a letter of any sorts is sent, not just one side of an issue. I would even send such a letter after a proper poll is complete. I do have a bit of pull and know most of the people involved in CPMS and Charlton Press.

So, please don't knock those that are against change or those that are in favour of change.

Rick

have to agree with rscoins on this one.
never been an advocate of multiple grades of Unc,AU,ect,yet this "poll" seems a tad biased.

glassman,when you are allowed to express your thoughts,and "lock" out the rest,it smacks of a bias don't you think.Leaning one way,not really a poll,a petition imo.

I'm reminded of a quote:
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. --- Will Rogers

glassmancanada-

This thread is NOT open for discussions. This is to avoid arguments. If you post here it is to add your name to the petition.

Do my "additional thoughts" or anyone elses "additional thoughts" count? May I gently suggest they do sir. I appreciate your efforts and,even applaud them,yet many thoughts may be constructive,perhaps even included

From your original post---------
I have included some of my additional thoughts on the subject below. I intend to send a copy along with the petition.
 
There has been talk of implementing the multiple levels of coin grading to banknotes, in other words having more than one grade of UNC. This would eventually lead to more than one grade of AU, EF, and VF etc.  
 
I cannot express to the collecting community enough how concerning this is to me. The grading system for banknotes has purity in its simplicity. It is set out in such a manner that anyone can grade any banknote for themselves without outside assistance and this system has worked beautifully for many years. If it isn’t broke don’t fix it. If your car is running perfectly do you take it to your mechanic to have a full diagnostic tune done? Not!  
 
You might be asking your self why anyone would want this type of grading for banknotes. Well to me the answer has purity in it’s simplicity as well…………it’s called GREED. The type of person who would benefit from this multiple levels system is not your average collector. Instead to them it is a business and the bottom line there is PROFIT.  
 
What does this mean? What it means is that notes that you and I would call AU now come with a rating of UNC 63 and would cost you a premium over the AU price. A note that we would consider UNC is now UNC 67 or Gem UNC and would cost you more than the current UNC price in the catalogue to purchase. Remember the phrase “a Rose by any other name is still a Rose”. Basically it’s going to cost you more for lesser quality banknotes and a premium for notes that we now refer to as UNC. It’s all about getting more cash for less than UNC notes and a premium for the ones that are truly only UNC.  
 
The other problem that arises is what happens to the lower grades. If AU is now UNC 63, what is AU??? And EF where does this fit in?? This pattern would suggest that every lower than UNC grade would now drop a notch and allow for more problems than the current system allows. What I’m guessing is the sub grades for UNC would initially be 3 tiers; UNC 67, UNC 63 and UNC 60. Over time this could expand to possibly 8 sub grades of UNC or more!!! The fact that the top end is UNC 67 suggests that plans are already in place to fill in the gaps. Dealers are already pushing this system and the trend for notes with UNC 67 rating is DOUBLE the book price of UNC……….Absurd!  
 
You as the collector must ask your self, do I want this change and is it even necessary. Take a look at the coin grading system and pose this question to your self. How as a coin collector can I ever feel confident in purchasing a coin using this 8 multiple levels UNC system? This system is so confusing even many of the dealers can’t agree on a grade. Simplicity is the key to success in grading.  
 
At least with the current paper grading system I have all the tools to decide the grade myself and pay what I feel the note is worth and not what some biased opinioned seller wants based on pushing the item up a sub grade of UNC. With the multiple levels of UNC system my negotiation abilities with the seller are now gone as these types of graded notes will be slabbed (sent to third party grading facilities and put in a hard plastic case) where it now becomes impossible to confirm/inspect the grade or even question a dealer regarding the grade. It will be a take it or leave it attitude with a premium price too.  
 
Many coin collectors have given up on coins for this high level of uncertainty and have switched to collecting banknotes. In my opinion the coin grading system is lunacy and I am not surprised at all that coin collectors would switch to banknotes, I did.  
 
It’s all about simplicity and its all about quality. Do you want to be at the mercy of some grading agency and profit hungry dealer? We all sometimes pay a premium to obtain a hard to find UNC banknote and justifiably so but we certainly do not want to be gouged on top of that. Who do these people think they are to claim to be the authority on grading? Why aren’t you the authority?  
 
Do not get me wrong, I sell surplus banknotes too and would stand to profit greatly from the multiple levels grading but first and foremost I am a collector and I do not want this. I feel implementing the multiple levels system would lead to the demise of collecting banknotes as we now know it. Don’t forget; its not about what you have for a collection today… it’s about what you will have for a collection in the future (over graded over priced banknotes). Personally I would have to seriously consider getting out of Canadian currency collecting…period. We want the hobby to grow not to shrink by turning off existing collectors and by turning away new coming collectors with confusion and soaring prices.  
 
The most important thing you must remember as a collector is that the Charlton catalogue is printed as a guide for YOU the COLLECTOR and NOT the DEALERS.

One other point.You state:

Do not get me wrong, I sell surplus banknotes too and would stand to profit greatly from the multiple levels grading but first and foremost I am a collector and I do not want this

Like you,a collector first,profiteer second.I do not need to have "grade" assigned to any note to achieve high returns on my investments.I try to buy the best,and sell the best.Hence,the *V/V I just sold for $13,500.
We certainly do not need TPG to profit from our collection(s).Let a note stand or fall on its own!

That said,I believe it's unstoppable....what the public perceives as beneficial,someone will provide.

well.  I am with Glassman even though i did not sign on.
 
  When someone handed me a petition, if i agree i sign it, if i don't agree i walk away.  i need not give my reason for not signing, unless i am invited to.  And I can not forcefully say 'hi, you, here is why i don't sign.'
    
i know this is off topic. i don't mean to offend.

From what I`ve seen the TPG companys are all ready using the same system that coins are being graded with the number system, there is an oppertunity to sell the graded note at a higher price than book vaule. It`s not just a UNC any more someone gave it a UNC60 or UNC64, now will Charlton change the way they put out there paper money book and add the number along with the grade and change UNC to mint state (ms). They will have to change the grade description in the book to add each new grade so that us collectors have something follow.

Should we all use a 4 power magnify instead of a good light and start looking at the notes like coins, looking for the smallest creases and folds that comes from the mint counting and handling it trying to find the "prefect note". The only person that benefits from grading is the grading company, because you have to pay for the servise of someone else putting the note into a plastic sleeve and given it a grade that you will more than likely disagree with.

  

have to agree with rscoins on this one.
never been an advocate of multiple grades of Unc,AU,ect,yet this "poll" seems a tad biased.

Do my "additional thoughts" or anyone elses "additional thoughts" count? May I gently suggest they do sir. I appreciate your efforts and,even applaud them,yet many thoughts may be constructive,perhaps even included

It's not a "poll" it is a "petition" therefore no comments are necessary.
Yes your thoughts count and I would be happy to listen to them and include them if you wish to send them to me privately.

The last time I started a thread about the grading subject it got shut down because it turned into a fight. With a petition and no comments the thread will go the distance.

I don't know that it matters anymore. If you look at how many signed the petition the indication is that the collectors (at least those on this forum) are in favor of bending over and grabbing their ankles. It seems that they like the idea of paying more and paving the way for the buy low sell high way of manipulating the multiple levels system.

At least those that are in favor of the "rape the collector grading" are standing up to be counted and they will be remembered when the hobby goes to hell.

I didn't start the thread or the petition to win a popularity contest in fact I suspect it will be/is quite the opposite. But you know what it doesn't matter what people think of me, what matters is the hobby.

Regards

Where do petitions fit into a discussion format?
I understand that some people are against change, and will do their level best to stop anything that appears to be changing.
I would never sign anything called a petition, no matter which way it wants to go.
Charlton's will go the way they see the paper money industry going.

Rick