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Topic: The End of our hobby? Doomed?  (Read 12724 times)
twoinvallarta
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« on: December 03, 2006, 03:21:04 pm »

What becomes of our hobby.Will new collectors in future generations become involved,having never seen a paper money note? Should we all burn our bank cards,demand cash from our bank branch,fill our wallets with currency,and purchase what we will?

Ever take a $1.00 note to a gas bar attendant,all of 17 years old? LOL.I have,the reaction is hilarious,oh and most will refuse the "cash" if they do not have a elder superior to consult because they have NO CLUE.

Should members of a cash hobby rally to the cry to keep paper money flowing?

Shall we abandon paypal as a tool for a means to an end?

Is convienance(read lazy) about to abolish our hobby,and privacy?

Should we insist on cash,cheque or Money Order and then demand physical from the bank?

Opinions,me I have to get to the bank and pull out pesos,and quit sending people payments for notes via electronic methods!

TowerGroup has released new research concluding that, while futurists have spun predictions of a "cashless" society since the middle of the last century, momentum is gathering that may turn this vision into reality in as little as 10 years. The report says that a combination of market- ready and emerging technologies is aligning to drive a majority of consumer payment transactions from cash toward other payments "form factors" - including the Internet, mobile and contactless payments.


"By 2015, a substantial share of consumer payments globally will have moved from cash to other payment mechanisms," said Theodore Iacobuzio, managing director in TowerGroup's Executive Research Office and content lead on the European Banking & Payments practice at TowerGroup.
"Many of these new form factors are already being tested in broad consumer settings in countries around the globe - from contactless payment terminals and fingerprint recognition payments, to mobile and micropayment roll-outs."

full article:http://www.paymentsnews.com/2006/01/momentum_buildi.html

And then,this article,the speaker sponsered by the Bank of Nova Scotia:

Catherine Johnston, President & CEO, The Advanced Card Technology Association of Canada

Thank you Drew (Brown of Scotiabank). I'd like to thank John Bumister and the Board and members of TMAC for allowing me to share some thoughts and observations with you today. I'm very happy to be here and on behalf of my board of directors, I bring you their best wishes for a successful conference and continued success as you move into the future of stored value payments.

I'd also like to thank Scotiabank and Scotia Capitol Markets for sponsoring my participation.

When John invited me, he suggested that I could be controversial which worries me a little. For the past two years we have both sat as members of the Canadian Payments Association Stakeholder Advisory Council and I'm not sure whether John meant that I should be more controversial than normal. Hmmm…

Well at any rate, before I start, I must tell you that I have a problem today. I truly do appreciate Scotiabank's sponsorship, and indeed I have a personal banking relationship with the institution, but I wish that it had been any other organization because I am going to say things today, in the context of this presentation, about Scotiabank. What I am going to tell you is true, it is accurate, and I'm afraid it is very complimentary. Scotiabank has taken a unique position; one I hope that other Canadian financial institutions will follow quickly. So you see my dilemma.

Before I start, I'd like to offer a few definitions. You don't have to strictly agree with these, but they will help you understand what ACT Canada means by certain terms. The first is smart, or chip, card. This is a PC on a piece of plastic, complete with an operating system, application software and application data. You should also think of these as distributed data centers.

Stored value, from our definition, is electronic value that resides on the chip and can be spent at participating merchants. E-cash is stored value, but differs as it can also be transferred between individuals, emulating cash. Lastly, you will hear me refer to FI's, financial institutions throughout my presentation; a term that includes banks and credit unions.

Now, to get to the heart of the matter. Are we truly moving toward a cashless society?

There is no controversy here. The answer is yes,........... . In North America, Canada took a dominant lead in the introduction of stored value products on smart cards. Let's take a moment to look at the technology that is making all this possible.

full article: http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:CHo5eq4oW5gJ:www.actcda.com/resource/9910TMAC.htm+cashless+society+in+Canada&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3


Hudson A B
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2006, 09:45:46 am »

Quote
Quote
Shall we abandon paypal as a tool for a means to an end?

YES!! As Canadians, we should close our PayPal accounts and start sending e-mail money transfers instead!  To heck with fees for receiving money.  And start listing your eBay items in Canadian dollars too!  Then we can transactions done sooner instead of asking silly questions like what is the expletive exchange rate.


AGREED 110%!!

CPMS Lifetime Member #1502.
rscoins
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2006, 10:21:45 am »

I agree. Start by getting rid of Paypal.

Rick
twoinvallarta
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2006, 11:36:37 am »

Quote
Now, to get to the heart of the matter. Are we truly moving toward a cashless society?
There is no controversy here. The answer is yes,........... . In North America, Canada took a dominant lead.....

Pay pal and USD listings in Canada for Canadian notes? Go figure.
As one who is in the currency and stock markets,I can tell you,and have stated to my clients for 3 years,the USD is a depreciating asset,and will continue on that track.

My thoughts are we need the CPMS to take an official stand against a cashless society for obvious reasons
This is serious folks,we will have NO paper money soon enough,I'm surprised at the lack of discussion so far.This is far more detrimental to our hobby than TPG which has generated 100's of posts on this site.
Where are the CPMS members on this issue?
Dealers should be up in arms? There livelihood is about to be pulled out from under them?
Where's the petition to the BOC expressing outrage about a system  we haven't asked for.

Dealers,what do you have to say about this?

Aww,maybe it's no big deal?! ;)

« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 11:42:48 am by twoinvallarta »

Archey80
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2006, 11:40:31 am »

I agree with getting rid of paypal and people sending EMT's its cheaper and then the money is on hand. I just do not see Canada getting rid of paper money(cash) in our life time.

Arthur

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twoinvallarta
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2006, 11:48:09 am »

Quote
I just do not see Canada getting rid of paper money(cash) in our life time.

Read the articles in full Archey,this should be complete by 2012-2015.

I do not know your age,but I plan to be around in 2015! ;)




Seth
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« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2006, 01:08:13 pm »

I do not believe that cash will ever be fully replaced by electronic transactions.  Credit, debit, etc will gain in popularity. But for convenience, cash is still king, and will always remain in common use.  Just try to make a purchase at a garage sale with a debit card.   ::)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 01:09:28 pm by grandish »

Track your Canadian currency online!

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Archey80
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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2006, 02:01:30 pm »

Well I do plan on living past 2015 I am just saying that I do not see it happening in the 100 years or at all for that matter.

Arthur

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walktothewater
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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2006, 02:38:24 pm »

This article is written as a propaganda tool for ACT (Advancement of Card Technologies).  The "techie" pundits want people to believe that there'll be a radically different future.  Obviously they want us to believe that a cashless society is around the corner.  (such an ideology only advances their cause).  However, the technologies themselves, many of them are still in the pilot stage. They seem to be even larger targets for fraud, and still wrought with many  many problems (obstacles to overcome). They don't delve into that too deeply.  Plastic may be embraced by the consumer but that doesn't mean that the older establishment will be replaced in 10 years.  There's still millions of people who have value the old system, and it is unlikely that they'll relinquish that system any time soon.  A cash system allows for privacy, for liberty to spend on whatever, a certain kind of flexibility not afforded by the card model.  

If paper money is replaced by plastic smart cards (not polymer) in Canada, then that won't make your paper (or polymer) money any less valuable.  It would still be very collectibe since its no longer made.  It might make your collection more valuable.

However prevalent our debit/credit cards are today-- I have a hard time imagining cash being completely replaced by credit.

When I worked in Nuclear Medicine I was told that it was an old obsolete techology that would be phased out and the opposite became true (it was used more often to complement Xray).  We heard that MRI would replace CT scanners, and that has not turned out to be the case.  With these expensive technologies the medical practitioners have found that they provide assistance where the other is lacking.  Where there may be weakness in one system, the other system shows a strength and vice versa.  I think that could be the same for money.  I believe the 2 systems will co-exist for a very long time.

Don_D
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« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2006, 02:46:00 pm »

The whole discussion is `funny' to say the least.  It is like saying stamp collectors should insist on  using smail instead of email to keep the hobby alive !    What about collectors of cigarette packages, should they insist on people smoking?  take it easy,  nobody produces or uses  1937, 1954 anymore, we still collect them, don't we ?
twoinvallarta
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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2006, 03:27:48 pm »

A rational discussion is about exchange of ideas.I'm putting forth an idea that INDUSTRY LEADERS SAY is TRUE----what we believe is inconsequential if not backed up by FACTS.

I may believe there is no such thing as drinking and driving because i do not drink,but the FACTS state my belief is UNTRUE.

I do not think a speaker,sponsored by the BNS no less,that says of a cashless society
Quote
Now, to get to the heart of the matter. Are we truly moving toward a cashless society?
 
THERE IS NO CONTROVERSY HERE.THE ANSWER IS YES.

The Royal Bank seems to agree with the BNS

Cashless society is on the cards
Wednesday, June 14, 2006
A trip to the corner shop may never be the same again.

If you pop out for a Sunday paper or a bar of chocolate, you will no longer have to worry about bringing a pocket full of change.

The new system will make it quicker and easier to pay for goods and allow everyone to carry less cash, said Kieran Hines, of market analyst Datamonitor. 'It is aimed entirely at replacing cash,' he added.
http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=15405&in_page_id=2

To argue that snail mail vs email saw no dismantling of regular post is redundant.No one forced email upon us,neither is regular postal services withdrawn so you have no choice but to adopt email.

Cigarette packages-I actually used to collect them,dont smoke now,dont collect them now,but I'd suggest it's small because its socially unacceptable,no one wants to touch it!
My point is that as the youngsters see less and less cash,and the currency generation passes,the hobby will all but disappear,as cigarette package collecting did and has.Will become socially unacceptable one day to have cash.

No one produces 1937,or 1954 notes,we still collect them alright,but will future generations?

But my point is bigger than this-How will brick huntere hunt,how will new error collectors find new finds,ect ect ect....they cant and wont with a cashless society.
If not the end of the hobby,it will shrink astronomically.


Will some one take a stand?

twoinvallarta
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2006, 03:32:07 pm »

walktothewater.
well thought out reply,i hope your thoughts are true.

here's another article

Credit card firm targets teens
By Joe Morgan
 
 
 
MASTERCARD was accused yesterday of encouraging teenagers to go into debt with the launch of a payment card for children.
The biggest credit card group is issuing prepayment cards to let youngsters purchase products on plastic........

Supporters, however, regard the cards, which are issued by Bluecorner, as the natural step in an increasingly cashless society. They argue that the prepayment cards will familiarise children with plastic without spending too much.

www.timesonline.co.uk/money

Getting the kids used to the cashless society
Mastercard introduces credit cards for children

Steve Watson | January 27 2006

Mastercard is to introduce credit cards directly aimed at children, encouraging them to go into debt and consume products without the use of cash.

Supporters regard the cards, which are issued by Bluecorner, as the natural step in an increasingly cashless society. They argue that the prepayment cards will familiarise children with plastic without spending too much. Says the London Times.

The cards are designed to get children used to the fact that cash is obsolete and their money, and the amount they are allowed to spend is controlled by someone else who also profits from their spending.



The cards, which have different designs based on popular teenagers' magazines and radio stations, have charges of £9.95 fee to open the account and 85p for each withdrawal from an ATM cash dispenser. There are penalty fees of £4.99 for cancelling an account or ordering a replacement card.

Phil Davies, the director of business development at MasterCard Europe, defended the cards saying: “Parents can control the amount of money their son or daughter spends on the card by limiting the amount of money placed on the card."

So in effect it is exactly the same as an adult credit card, except the controlling of the amount of money in adult life is carried out by the globalist bankers who profit from the cashless society.

A cashless society would mean total control over everyone as people would be forced to pay for everything electronically. Every purchase would be traceable and the ability to buy or sell could be halted immediately at any given moment.
 
 

doug62
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« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2006, 04:57:15 pm »

You make very valid arguments BUT
all I say is they cant even get rid of the penny !
twoinvallarta
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« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2006, 05:19:06 pm »

doug62-You make very valid arguments BUT
all I say is they cant even get rid of the penny !

LOL ,but if you abolish the penny, number of nickels in use goes up.
I suppose there could be additional nickel usage based on changed habits--people having a nickel jar rather than a penny jar for example.


twoinvallarta
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« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2006, 05:27:44 pm »

How about we just revalue all are currency and coin by 10x. That is a 'new penny' == 'old dime'. Your $50,000 salary is now a $5,000 salary. but your $1.00 soda is now 10¢

Now even a penny is valuable, and having a dollar in your pocket is really worth something.

That means my 1935 $2.00 in Unc is worth $185/ :-/ :-?

rscoins
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« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2006, 05:41:34 pm »

A penny has not been a piece of currency in Canada since 1857. There is no such coin called a "nickel". most transactions are done with other denominations and rag money.

Rick
Mikeysonfire
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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2006, 05:57:00 pm »

I love having pennys!  :o It's the best way to save money without even knowing it!
twoinvallarta
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« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2006, 06:03:20 pm »

Mikey you may wanna rethink that.Enjoy!
http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/rates/inflation_calc.html

Quote
A penny has not been a piece of currency in Canada since 1857. There is no such coin called a "nickel". most transactions are done with other denominations and rag money.
 

Gee Rick,with such a serious situation facing us,the elimination of cash,certain segments of our hobby that may disappear,and as the head of a very prestegous organization,you'd think a petition from you/your organization would be coming forthwith,sent directly to the BOC expressing the associations opposition to this dastardley scheme!! (all tongue in cheek!)

heck,even an email! lol.

But what you said makes alot of 'cents' :)

« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 06:04:59 pm by twoinvallarta »

doug62
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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2006, 06:10:01 pm »

Hey Mikey,
I have jars upon jars of them (25 years worth lol), whenever I try to give them away to the young ones, their parents say NO.

Thought of taking them to one of those coin machines but they charge like 9%.

Maybe Robert will sell me one of those 1935 $2 for them  ;)
rscoins
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« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2006, 06:30:05 pm »

CAND is not interested in fighting the fights of those that want to force their will on the Canadian public.
A few things. Coins, correctly expressed, will continue to be used as change. Use them.
Paper money is a usefull way to spend it. It is a shame when one appreciates that McDonalds has a debit machine in their drive through window (as do others).
Maybe we should print more paper, and charge higher fees on bank machines, debit machines, credit cards usage. This will take place when it will.
Paypal is another. A US company owned by our friends at eBay. They charge high fees to use them, force one to convert into Canadian money at their rate. I tried to list items on eBay in Canadian funds and not take PP. All it did was reduce sales and increase hassle.

Rick
Seth
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« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2006, 08:36:54 pm »

Quote
Aye, of course there is no such thing as a nickel in circulation.  It's proper name under the British Imperial system is a shilling.

 :P

When people are arguing over semantics (Yes, yes, I know you're just joking), it's delicious to see people make errors.  Did anyone else spot the error in what I quoted?   ;D

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« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2006, 10:08:09 pm »

Quote
Quote
Aye, of course there is no such thing as a nickel in circulation.  It's proper name under the British Imperial system is a shilling.

 :P

When people are arguing over semantics (Yes, yes, I know you're just joking), it's delicious to see people make errors.  Did anyone else spot the error in what I quoted?   ;D

A shilling is 20 cents, which is 1/20th of a pound halifax or $4 (not 1/20th of a dollar). Refer to Paul's article on the $4 bill in the Notes section of this site.
walktothewater
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« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2006, 10:40:35 pm »

Quote
MASTERCARD was accused yesterday of encouraging teenagers to go into debt with the launch of a payment card for children.  
The biggest credit card group is issuing prepayment cards to let youngsters purchase products on plastic........
Most credit/debit systems are all about the service charges and interests made on out-standing debts.  Yes and then there's Paypal which no one seems to like.  And who can blame us?  What a rip off organization that is!

That's the underlying agenda of these "cashless society" pundits.  To fool people into believing that they're doing you a service while they have their hands in your back pockets (I love that commercial!)

I doubt you'll ever see a cashless society in the USA, where the general population are as skeptical of their central government as they are their banks.  While we may have a relatively more stable banking system here, I think our integration with the US economy will spare us the cashless society route.  Canadians often forget that there are a few fringe benefits living north of "Goliath."

canadianpaper
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« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2006, 02:52:26 am »

Hi Rob,

I'm joing this discussion late... but as they say better than never. Additionally, I think I was mesmerized by the prices the 1935 and 37 $50 banknotes on Ebay sold for... sigh... perhaps next time... perhaps next time...lol...

Going back to your topic... I don't know if you remember but I had actually brought this topic up with you along time ago not too long after we met. It was sparked by an interesting discussion I had with a dealer who brought this issue up with me as I was scanning his inventory and trying to pick his brain on what he thought the potential appreciation of numismatic collectables were in Canada - both banknotes and paper.

I would say that the advent of a cashless society is invenvitable. My travels to asia over the years has seen how this is functioning to some extent in differening methods. E.g. transit cards in Hong Kong also double as cash cards for the phone and convenience cards. I believe many years ago Nokia was alreadng preloading phone technology with the ability to pay (literally zap at) retailers and other pos vendors for one to buy with monetary funds stored on their phone.

With regards to how this will affect the numismatic future... I will for arguements sake.... say that we should be fine. The reason if anything is that monetary currency I believe will have at the very least a social, anthropological, and economic oddity in the historical landscape of "our" society.

I think like other collectables such as horse carriages, vintage propellor planes, old cars, and whatever else people find a fancy too that is no longer usuable for today's society someone will be interested enough to want to collect paper money.

Whether the hobby actually grows or not... well... its really hard to say isn't it? I mean to some extent... one would need to argue that the means, intrigue, and coolness to collect anything comes and goes with fads, fashion, and other social economic factors.

I believe comic books that were heavily speculated back in the 80s and 90s and especially so with the advent of third party grading. Likewise, that bubble burst during the end of an interesting time where a question of paper back comic books surviving the advent of the internet came into being. And although most of those same comic books are not worth as much during their specualtive hayday... people still collect them.

So, to take a stand... I think that the hobby will be fine. I think I've taken a slightly different perspective to tackle your topic so I hope it adds to the discussion.

I'm sure we'll have many more in the future...lol...

Best Regards, Steve

BTW... I'm still daydreaming about that $50 Osborne...lol
canadianpaper
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« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2006, 02:54:52 am »

Oops... somewhere in my typing... I wrote "banknotes and paer" which should have read "banknotes and coins"... lol... I think I was still daydreaming...lol
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« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2006, 03:22:53 am »

So will drug dealers have to take debit  :-/  and no more avoiding GST    :(
Seth
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« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2006, 04:17:36 am »

Quote
Quote
Quote
Aye, of course there is no such thing as a nickel in circulation.  It's proper name under the British Imperial system is a shilling.

 :P

When people are arguing over semantics (Yes, yes, I know you're just joking), it's delicious to see people make errors.  Did anyone else spot the error in what I quoted?   ;D

A shilling is 20 cents, which is 1/20th of a pound halifax or $4 (not 1/20th of a dollar). Refer to Paul's article on the $4 bill in the Notes section of this site.

Good one, but thats not the error I was talking about.  Hint:  I deliberately made the same error in my previous sentence.  :D

Track your Canadian currency online!

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Manada
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« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2006, 12:06:23 pm »

Quote
So will drug dealers have to take debit  :-/  and no more avoiding GST    :(


I'm wondering how burlesque dancers will be tipped in this cashless future!?

But always, there remained the discipline of steel. - Conan the Barbarian
twoinvallarta
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« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2006, 05:55:15 pm »

Hello Steve,

Sorry for the delay in my response.

I do vaguely remember this being a topic of conversation when we first met.What triggered my renewed interest in it was the articles I posted and a conversation with someone(I will not reveal his name on a public forum)that lives here in Vallarta.Actually he is Canadian,helped build Whistler into what it is today by financing and design.His family still owns several businesses in Whistler,and I do mean the larger ones.They(he) are involved in several golf courses in Vancouver and Vallarta `as well as a few Mega Resorts here(over 500 rooms)
Having known him several years,and his background in finance,the topic always turns to some aspect of money,wether stocks,currency,gold,real estate,what have you.

In no uncertain terms he has told me the grand plan is a cashless society.His contacts in the bankinbg industry are Tier 1 people,and he tells me the Banks do not OFFICIALLY endorse this policy,as they would have a PR problem of epic porportions.There idea is to FUND orginizations that advocate cashless society,slowly but surely.
This is why I posted the article about a cashless society sponsered by ..who else...the BNS.

As he relates to me,and this is evolving he states,the current objective is a North American currency,no Canadian,nor USD,or Peso.Eventually this will be phased out to an all electronic system.
Lo and behold,Lou Dobbs on MoneyLine the other night said the EXACT same thing.I couldn't believe my ears,and this gentlemans credibility went up afew notches in my estimation!

So where does it leave the future of our hobby? Who really knows,yet I cant see it being as popular as it is now if currency disappears.Try to get a 17 year old to save a 1973 or 1954 $1.00  lol.(Of course there are exceptions)

We need only look at our own wives(although mine is now embracing the hobby in a manner totally different from me).They look at us like we are crazy extremists.Why waste good money for bad they scream,lol.

Back to my friend here,he tells me the purpose of this scheme is quite simple.So you can not avoid taxes.The stripper can not be tipped without taxes if it is all recorded and electronic.The garage sale will have taxes paid on every item.
But the main reason that will be put forth he tells me,is to do away with financial crime.In an example he stated that if someone breaks into your home,steals your TV,they cant sell it without a record because there is no cash to trade any longer.

He also stated if you have not secured your financial privacy out of NA by now,you can and should not.

This is but a brief synopsis of our talks,and my subsequent research.
What I really wanted was to stimulate a discussion among collectors/dealers about the future of our hobby.

Thanks for adding to it Steve.

It's the "perfect" system and its coming.

PS-Dealers are strangely silent on this.I suspect they know more than they are letting us in on? Mind you,if you read Rick's post here,he probably has a lot of info he could share but chooses not to.

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« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2006, 07:57:52 pm »

Quote
I'm wondering how burlesque dancers will be tipped in this cashless future!?
Dexit cards, Canadian Tire money, Casino chips, U.S. dollars?  I was going to add slot machine tokens, but tipping with cold metal objects might not be appreciated.  ;)

canadianpaper
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« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2006, 02:54:43 am »

Rob,

Yes, we certainly live in interesting times as they say... where the flux of society and the way we function is a changing landscape indeed.

I do agree that a cashless society will be the way to go. Even thoughts of how much it costs for the production, maintenance, and retention of a cash society would be meaningful enough reasons to move towards a society.

Aside from the hypothetical debates of where our hobby will be in this future cashless society... it will be even more interesting to see how this change will come about. I wonder what governments will survive the transition from - I don't want to declare all the cash i have on hand to - all I own is on this digital doo hickey thing I carry around my neck thingy...

It will be an interesting transition also because of our diversified population in Canada where we have new canadians who traditionally assume financial transaparency is "okay" and doesn't hurt anyone...

I wonder if this will also be the end of those darn "squeegy people" at the intersections....

Anyways... yes, its a definate topic of intrigue and importance for us to follow-considering the proponents of our hobby and those of us that believe that Canadian Banknotes are also on the verge of a boom on the horizon...

Perhaps a side bet should be in order... another topic we'll need to discuss the next time we meet for coffee...lol...

Best Regards,

Steve
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« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2006, 03:02:50 am »

Rob...

Just to add... another aspect of your initial subject.... NOW... what if this were to take place... the transition to a cashless society... and the government decided it was neccessary to "expropriate" per se... reclaim all legal tender.... including collectables... can you imagine this!

That would definately be the end of our hobby per se... unless we were all willing to go underground whereby numismatic shows are held in dark and dank underground meeting places and secret codes given as to times and location.

Sad to say, but just like real estate, when the government wants it, they'll take it.

Now wouldn't that be something.
rscoins
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« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2006, 01:36:22 pm »

Quote
Rob...

Just to add... another aspect of your initial subject.... NOW... what if this were to take place... the transition to a cashless society... and the government decided it was neccessary to "expropriate" per se... reclaim all legal tender.... including collectables... can you imagine this!

That would definately be the end of our hobby per se... unless we were all willing to go underground whereby numismatic shows are held in dark and dank underground meeting places and secret codes given as to times and location.

Sad to say, but just like real estate, when the government wants it, they'll take it.

Now wouldn't that be something.

So would a nuclear war be the end of paper money and numismatics in general. Such things as government seizing all cash is unlikely, but one never knows with our current governments.

Rick
twoinvallarta
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« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2006, 01:39:33 pm »

Now that is a thought that has never x'd my mind Steve,confiscation-wow,scary stuff!

If in doubt of the plans,the inevitable is coming,here is a few Lou Dobbs expose' of our New currency and Union

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBmFrYWPoG8&search=North%20American%20Union


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H65f3q_Lm9U&mode=related&search=North%20American%20Union

Congressman Ron Paul:
"The ultimate goal is not simply a superhighway, but an integrated North American Union – complete with a currency, a cross-national bureaucracy, and virtually borderless travel within the Union. Like the European Union, a North American Union would represent another step toward the abolition of national sovereignty altogether."

Seth
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« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2006, 01:40:35 pm »

I've been reading the predictions that cash will disappear and be replaced with cashless electronic transactions with amusement.

The predictions remind me of the predictions made in the 1950's about the future.  By 2000, robots were supposed to do all of the work, freeing up all of us to be on perpetual vacations.  THAT certainly didn't happen.  People work harder now than they ever did before.

I don't mean to belittle others' responses, but the whole "cash will disappear" scenario just seems too far fetched to me.  Even in the unlikely scenario that banknotes and coins will be withdrawn, people will hoard bullion and other tangible items to be used as cash replacements.  

Track your Canadian currency online!

http://www.whereswilly.com
twoinvallarta
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« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2006, 01:52:44 pm »

Well Rick,

Although history does not portend the (our) future,it can be a guide for lessons learned.
And even if cashless is not a foregone conclusion,shouldn't organizations
 like CPMS,CAND,ONA,ect take an official stand against the possibility that the hobby could see  irreparable damage from such a development?

We know from history that gold bullion was illegal to own in the United States till the 70's,confiscated via decree,Presidential,that armed gaurds stood in banks as one opened safety deposit boxes to see what they could see,if you had an ouce of gold it was confiscated for the going rate at the time.
When this North American Union is complete,they could very well indeed confiscate gold as a terrorist tool to fund illegal operations.
Matter a fact,I've seen a few news stories like that already.Setup?

Paper,that's easy.

Heck,Hudson will have to join the OPP Forensics Division for a new hobby. :) (I dont fully understand Hudsons work,but I know it's work,and alot of it! Kudos to Huds)


walktothewater
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« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2006, 02:04:29 pm »

Quote
the grand plan is a cashless society.His contacts in the banking industry are Tier 1 people,and he tells me the Banks do not OFFICIALLY endorse this policy,as they would have a PR problem of epic porportions.There idea is to FUND orginizations that advocate cashless society,slowly but surely.

You know Rob this doesn't surprise me.  I got some "inside" info from a very reliable source who also thinks that the BOC will cancel all currency under this scheme.  Just because the bank cancels the currency doesn't mean it would try to reclaim/recall all notes.  The argument to switch to electronic card money is a strong and convincing one-- esp in terms of what it can do to thwart organized crime,  and how it can keep tabs on taxes due.  (He offered the same arguments you've posted) When I first heard his idea I scoffed.  But the more I think about it...the more I can see the trend, and the pressures to make it happen.

But the overall thing (as collectors) we should keep in mind is this:  who in their right mind would demand $25.00 for a French 1935 $25.00 note.  If the note is cancelled...does it make it any less rare (or desirable) as a cultural artifact?  I think not.  Perhaps there might be a small jolt of nervous selling, and a market recession but I believe that it would be a temporary blip- that would soon recover.  In fact, if paper money becomes a thing of the past...wouldn't that make it all the more valuable?  Wouldn't that increase the average Joe's interest in something he/she's taken for granted all along?  It could well mean that all those millions of 1973 $1.00 notes might actually be worth something!  (Look at French playing card money!)  Just like polymer has done for the paper note collectors in Australia...perhaps the phasing out of paper money can make asterisk, and rare notes all the more pricey.  But I do believe that we'll see polymer cash before they phase out paper cash.  And the following is my reason:

I predict a very strong resistance to the whole scheme.   As you stated its a grand plan supported by our financial institutions.  This is the natural order of things in the business world where fiscal policy deals in large financial transactions.  Rarely are any business deals conducted in cash (Cash Li excepted).

In the lives of ordinary citizen X... there are many more financial transactions that go on in a micro scale.   The government must be accountable to the will of the people, and if there's growing resistance, the government will defer to their wishes.  If you think of the value of a cent...and how it continues to be minted...than I'm sure you can easily see my point.  Even under the pressure of inflation coinage will continue...and that's due to its necessity.  Necessity- not the grand schemes of financiers-- will determine the currency of a society.

I also suspect there'll be greater resistance in the states where people associate their freedom with cash even more than their right to bear arms.   We'll see a switch to polymer, or maybe even smart (RF) chipped higher denominations, but I doubt we'll see cash phased out in our lifetime.   I can think of many schemes and grand plans of governments/organizations in the past...that never came to fruition.  Its the context of the economy that will rule... not just the stakeholders.

twoinvallarta
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« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2006, 01:19:50 pm »

Fascinating walktothewater.More confirmation and evidence seems to be mounting.
Could be a bloody shame for our hobby,
Hope not!

walktothewater
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« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2006, 05:03:28 pm »

You don't have to look too far to see the pressures mounting towards a cashless society.  Take that American commerical that's on the air right now.
I goes something like this: A bunch of animated people lined up in orderly fashion buying things for Xmas from a Dr Seuss like store, and everything is running like clockwork until a customer puts cash on the counter, and everything stops.   Everything gets backlogged and there's momentary chaos in this store's scheme of things.  You then hear the plug for a debit card, and see a happy store clerk swipe a card through the machine, and the whole clock like system is up and running again - with customers handing their cards over, and quickly moving along the queue, and so happy with their purchases.  I forget what exactly the final narrative line in the ad is... but it runs something like: "In a perfect world, Why use cash when there's your ___ card?"
« Last Edit: December 17, 2006, 05:06:35 pm by walktothewater »

walktothewater
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« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2007, 01:35:22 pm »

Most Financial advisors who counsel people in debt recommend:
1) cutting up your debit/credit card (and consolidating your debts with 1 loan)
2) making up a budget and sticking to it
3) using cash so you're more aware of exactly how much you're parting with

As we all know-- there's a lot of debt load in Canada and the US.  Funny how banks (with $30 billion a year of profits and still charging Canadians ATM fees!) are the biggest advocates of a cashless society.  I wonder who's side they're on when they come up with these grand schemes? ::)

 

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