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Topic: Journey Series Replacements - Truth's, Myth's and Misconceptions  (Read 9467 times)
X-Savior
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My article is complete and available for download.

It talks about The Journey Series notes. Specifically the 2006 $5 Notes, how they are Printed, the different types of Replacement notes and the roles that they play. It has also been written from the point of view as a collector. This will help everyone relate what they see and how it fits into the big picture.

www3.telus.net/cc-comp/article/article.doc

I Hope this answers many common questions and educates many of the collectors who are new to the Journey Series. I welcome feedback and comments about the article and hopefully I can answer any remaining questions.

You can E-Mail me at:

Banknote@Telus.net

I would like to send out a very special thank you to Hudson, Chris and Brent for their hard work proof reading the article and providing valuable feedback. Thank You!!!  8)

Very Best Regards,
Cam
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 02:09:34 am by X-Savior »

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friedsquid
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2007, 08:35:40 am »

Definitely a very interesting article and explains a lot of questions.
I do have 2 questions though.

Quote
AOM (0.480M - 0.481M) has been found and is waiting confirmation from more sources.

1) My understanding is that this range was expanded to .480-.482 so then .480-.481 would now be in a confirmed range. Is that correct or not?

2) Are the position numbers ALWAYS the same on an entire sheet or do they change? ???  Is there a reason they just don't go 1-45 and keep it simple?

FRIEDSQUID
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 08:38:38 am by friedsquid »



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X-Savior
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2007, 12:04:06 pm »

Good questions.

1) Yes, there have been a recent change in the CBN ranges...This article was not updated with that info yet. I will update it when more is learned about the CBN ranges.

2) The Position numbers are ALWAYS the same for each grid position on the sheet. This will not change. BoC does not like simple...  ;) These are the combinations used. We must remember that there are OTHER combinations of position numbers for other denominations, so these are the numbers used for Upgraded Security $5 Notes printed by BAI.

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friedsquid
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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2007, 12:08:14 pm »

Thanks for the quick reply.  Atleast that's another thing I now understand 8)



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Hudson A B
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2007, 03:03:56 pm »

We must remember that there are OTHER combinations of position numbers for other denominations, so these are the numbers used for Upgraded Security $5 Notes printed by BAI.

BAI is using the same FP BP combinations regardless of denomination.  Sheet layouts are also now all in line with eachother, Skip 1000, 40 on with the sheared off mini ream as discovered with the $5s.

Just wanted to make that clear.
H :)

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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2007, 03:33:25 pm »

Excellent,

That you very much for clearing this up. I will amend the article to include this information.

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gammsarah
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« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2009, 07:30:49 pm »

As a newbie, that article was very informative.  Thanks
X-Savior
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2009, 11:20:31 am »

I am glad it was of good use.

It was designed to educate members of the community to help make more informed decisions regarding Replacement Notes.  :)

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Jokered
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2009, 10:01:29 pm »

Hello,



I read the article that I found fascinating and that helped me a lot to understand the phenomenon, thanks to the writer. But I still question myself about these "modern" not formerly identified replacement notes:

Why would I believe the people that say they have found these replacement note? Why would they believe me when I say I found one?  Based on the great quantity of replacement notes on ebay, is it possible that some are not?

Even if  there is trust in these people, what is going to happen when these brick searchers loose interest and stop searching? Will collectors loose interest to and the notes loose their values?

Just a few questions, do you have answers?



friedsquid
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2009, 07:49:38 am »

Quote
Why would I believe the people that say they have found these replacement note? Why would they believe me when I say I found one?  Based on the great quantity of replacement notes on ebay, is it possible that some are not?

First of all, many brick searchers have been bricking for years and as for myself since the Bird Series. Like in any other field, people have to build trust, reliability, and a sense of confidence with the people they deal with. It is not uncommon for members of this site to send other members large amounts of cash or notes to view before purchasing without ever worrying about being taken.  You build trust and gain trust over time. It is still a small tighty knit community and bad news travels fast. 
As for replacements, the information I gather is reported, then collected, complied and possibly confirmed when a number of finds of the same range have been reported.  These finds can come from all over Canada from numerous brick searchers. Depending on whether the replacement notes are sheet replacements or snrs there is certain criteria that can be established.  If new finds are reported, the possibility of ranges being expanded is also possible. As for whether you trust what someone says is a matter of personal preference, but should you brick yourself, hopefully you will better understand how the process works. The fact is that there are many ranges of replacement notes and on occasion some notes said to be replacements on ebay are not,(whether intentional or by error), but I nor any brick searcher would be trying to sell a note that is NOT CONFIRMED. There is an up to date list of confirmed replacements available on this site and if your not sure you can always just post and ask. I think once you delve a little deeper into it you will find that there is a lot of information on this site that may make you better understand how, who and what goes into the process of finding a note and getting it confirmed.  The one thing I should point out as well is that not every insert you find will necessarily be confirmed.  As for myself and other brick searchers we have likely over time found notes that no other searcher has found and therefore will never be a confirmed replacement note.
Only my thoughts.....



Quote
Even if  there is trust in these people, what is going to happen when these brick searchers loose interest and stop searching? Will collectors loose interest to and the notes loose their values?

I think most brick searchers are addicted and as it was discussed before in detail, if your doing it for the money, forget it ...the costs are to high in most cases and can be a very time consuming venture.  I also think many searchers are collectors so in my opinion if I can slowly build my collection by trading, selling off duplicates and perhaps recouping some of my brick charges that is fine with me...
The other point is that once the Journey Series end who knows what will change. I think that people who collect replacements will always collect them and once they are no longer available then I would think people would be trying to fill in the gaps or holes in their collections. Sometimes it is easier to get the new notes when you can and hope for the best when getting notes already issued and no longer being printed.
Anyways only my opinion
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 09:16:57 pm by Paul Wallis »



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Jokered
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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2009, 10:27:09 pm »

Hello Friedsquid

Yes I know how thrilling it can be to go through a brick and thanks a lot for that detailed answer.

But I am nostalic of the X's note and I just can't resolve myself to get into these new replacement notes that are all over the place as if printers went 50 years back in their printing process. There are so many how can they be so valuable?

Thanks again for your answer.

Jokered
friedsquid
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2009, 06:35:25 am »

Quote
There are so many how can they be so valuable?

The one thing that many people still don't seem to grasp is that in many cases the range of a replacement can be large, but that is no indication of how many notes have actually been found and kept. The fact is that the other asterisk or "X" notes were easy to spot and in many cases where keep because of that reason alone.  Also, in many cases , quantities of the other replacement notes are much easier to find on Ebay, on dealers tables at coin shows, and even on the trading post than some of the newer Journey replacement notes.
As always, this is only my opinion and you should collect what you like and feel comfortable with...
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 07:12:35 am by friedsquid »



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Jokered
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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2009, 07:55:59 pm »

The fact is that the other asterisk or "X" notes were easy to spot and in many cases where keep because of that reason alone. 

Hello friedsquid,

I do not agree with you on this fact. The matter is that old X's or asterisk notes were solely used as replacment notes and were identified as such. I would add that they are formerly identified by theses caracteristics which makes them unmistakebly replacement notes. This is not the case for the journey series replacement notes. This is why they have much less interest to me... I have to rely on somebody else's opinion to know if they are replacement note and I don't really like this dependency.

But hey, apparently the market of bank notes does not agree with me. But will it last?

Again, only my opinion on the matter.

Jokered
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2009, 10:09:11 pm »

a littel more info for you Jokered on replacements from the BoC

http://gwfedora.tripod.com/id15.html

Cheers



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Hudson A B
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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2009, 02:14:53 am »

I have to rely on somebody else's opinion to know if they are replacement note and I don't really like this dependency.
With all due respect Jokerid, the actual numbers found by brickers are not "opinions".  The ranges may resemble opinons, because we cannot get an actual confirmation from the BoC, however, they are backed up by countless hours of research, and mounds of data - which supports the claim.  Just as  importantly, the data does not contradict claims made (this is an easy acid test for false claims, when analysing the numbers and FP/BP combos).


Having a firm grasp on how they print the notes, based on brick reports, FP and BP numbers, end of sheet errors, and other printing process errors have given us more than enough reliable information on how the notes are printed, and how the sheets are layed out.

The only matter of opinion comes when determining the range size, and any opinion on this should be closely backed up with  substantial research, and also be reflective of the current findings.  Thus, the important of all virgin brick information.


With the standard matrix in place, for BABN and CBN, and the mini-reams outlined for BABN, the ranges of replacement notes are painfully clear.  But, it has taken years of bricking by many hard working (and money losing) people, who are devoted to the better interest of the hobby - by supplying actual brick data.


You may be interested in reading about this in greater depth - X-saviour wrote his paper shortly after mine, as he started bricking in Edmonton.
View:
http://www.members.shaw.ca/collectorsgallery/BlackBoxMystery-01.htm
and
http://www.members.shaw.ca/collectorsgallery/BlackBoxMystery-02.htm


Well,  I think it was in 1996 or so that they stopped using the X (1998, I don't remember??), so about 10 years have passed, and people are still absolutely intrigued by these notes.


One thing that is very important - it is true, a range may be 360,000, or 270,000 and so on...  depending on the ream size....
but how many were actually found, is another story.  That is what it will always boil down to.




And finally, I took that darn apostrophe out of "Myth's" and "Truth's"


Peace everyone.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 10:48:28 am by Hudson A B »

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Jokered
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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2009, 08:37:50 pm »

With all due respect Jokerid, the actual numbers found by brickers are not "opinions".  The ranges may resemble opinons, because we cannot get an actual confirmation from the BoC, however, they are backed up by countless hours of research, and mounds of data - which supports the claim.  Just as  importantly, the data does not contradict claims made (this is an easy acid test for false claims, when analysing the numbers and FP/BP combos).
...
The only matter of opinion comes when determining the range size, and any opinion on this should be closely backed up with  substantial research, and also be reflective of the current findings.  Thus, the important of all virgin brick information.

Hello Hudson A B,

Have I been out of line with my comments? Sorry if I did, but I will not stop questioning issues about one of my favorite hobbies. At this point you did not help in changing my point of view about the new replacement notes issue because:

1) There is no official confirmation of these replacement notes by the BoC;
2) Sometimes even honest and rigourously driven research can lead to erroneous conclusions; (although it may not be the case here, I still have to rely on this dependency to get to these notes which was not the case for the X's notes)
3) There is still an opinion being made for the range, one fact that the research seemingly cannot proove;

But I will read the articles you suggested thanks!


Jokered
 
Hudson A B
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2009, 10:43:16 pm »

Have I been out of line with my comments? Sorry if I did, but I will not stop questioning issues about one of my favorite hobbies. At this point you did not help in changing my point of view about the new replacement notes issue because:

1) There is no official confirmation of these replacement notes by the BoC;
2) Sometimes even honest and rigourously driven research can lead to erroneous conclusions; (although it may not be the case here, I still have to rely on this dependency to get to these notes which was not the case for the X's notes)
3) There is still an opinion being made for the range, one fact that the research seemingly cannot proove;

But I will read the articles you suggested thanks!


Hi Jokered - no there is nothing out of line with your comments and concern, for they are valid, and are important so that can all be refreshed on what is what, when it comes to inserts.

To answer your concerns,
a) there will never be a confirmation from the Bank of Canada with regards to precise insert note ranges, since the notes are printed by companies not owned by the BoC.  Furthermore, the printing companies are not even bound to print the full 10,000,000 notes in a prefix. They can truly start and stop wherever they please, since the BoC contracts them out for AMOUNT of money, not any certain point of ranges.
However, as you will see in the articles, they ahve confirmed the existance of the replacements.  This is something undeniable, but since the brick packaging is done pre-BoC, they would not have that information anyway (Unless they were messing with the bricks themselves, which HAS happened in the past).
b) The whole insert note section of the hobby has the forenote that ranges are based on best available data.  And the data is based on the findings washed through the acid test of the matrix.   "Erroneous conclusions" stated as such, in the insert world, with the knowledge of the matricies, is actually, "Incomplete conclusions, matched to the highest standard based on the matricies".   In human terms, it means, yes they might not be precisely accurate, but it does not mean that an area is reported as an insert when it is really NOT.  The converse is true though --  inserts are all reported on file to be regular notes, until their findings have been substantiated by a number of claims.

c) Your point 3 is correct - but the opinion is based on the matrix, and samples of 10s of thousands of notes being run through the matrrix, providing us with a measure of accuracy that science can only dream to hold.

So, my point is NOT to discourage questions, but rather, to encourage questions and research, and careful statements of hypothesis, as opposed to loose and inaccurate statements about inserts.  The latter of course is why such a vigorous process is in place.

Please understand I meant no offense in my earlier post. I welcome all questions and comments.

Thank you for reading into the matrix research.

God Bless-

Hudson
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 03:33:13 pm by BWJM »

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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2009, 01:31:55 am »

As a note of point, since it has been quite some time since I wrote the original article... I will be taking the time in the near future to update it with all the new information we have learned in the last year and a half, and also expand on the issue of mini-reams.

Hudson, I will be in touch with you regarding this matter.

Thank You!

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Hudson A B
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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2009, 03:35:11 am »

As a note of point, since it has been quite some time since I wrote the original article... I will be taking the time in the near future to update it with all the new information we have learned in the last year and a half, and also expand on the issue of mini-reams.

Hudson, I will be in touch with you regarding this matter.

Thank You!



I am planning to have something prepared XS, which will include the hows and whys and possibilities, and will also explain Mark M's articles in more brief language.

Right about now, there needs to be a summative document that have the "need to know" facts on it.   

I will be unable to start this until the end of Juse, when I start summer vacation, so hang tight. please.

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« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2009, 05:12:46 pm »

Can someone clarify or help with this question?

My understanding is that several people are needed to confirm if a certain range is considered a replacement Sheet/Note. Does the BoC ever confirm ranges? As i looked threw the site i noticed that their was a range of replacement sheet notes that were confirmed by the BoC?  Does this happen? The reason i ask is what does one do if they have found and insert range which they know can only be an Replacement sheet note( threw brick searching) but no others have been able to confirm this? Will it fall to the waste side and potentially be forever ignored or do ALL replacement notes eventually (5-10-25Years) get confirmed.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

MG
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 03:32:07 pm by BWJM »

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friedsquid
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« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2009, 06:57:27 pm »

Quote
The reason i ask is what does one do if they have found and insert range which they know can only be an Replacement sheet note( threw brick searching) but no others have been able to confirm this? Will it fall to the waste side and potentially be forever ignored or do ALL replacement notes eventually (5-10-25Years) get confirmed.

I think most brick searchers have atleast one if not many unconfirmed replacement notes that they have found during their brick searches that no one else has found.  It is likely as time passes they will never be confirmed since the window of opportunity in finding them passes as each new prefix comes out.
It's all part of brick searching.....
FRIEDSQUID



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Hudson A B
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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2009, 11:26:08 am »

I think most brick searchers have atleast one if not many unconfirmed replacement notes that they have found during their brick searches that no one else has found.  It is likely as time passes they will never be confirmed since the window of opportunity in finding them passes as each new prefix comes out.
It's all part of brick searching.....
FRIEDSQUID


Yes, FSQ is right.  There are many finds that are not able to be confirmed, because of the stringent controls placed on what can be claimed.   And these controls are in place so that erroneous claims do not work their way into the book, or public.

I have some $50s that I have found in 2005 yet that probably will never be realized. *sigh*   but, that's part of the ups and downs.   It also doesn't help that there are only 2 $50 brick searchers in the country (that I know of).

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Hudson A B
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2009, 11:32:13 am »

Can someone clarify or help with this question?

My understanding is that several people are needed to confirm if a certain range is considered a replacement Sheet/Note. Does the BoC ever confirm ranges? As i looked threw the site i noticed that their was a range of replacement sheet notes that were confirmed by the BoC?  Does this happen? The reason i ask is what does one do if they have found and insert range which they know can only be an Replacement sheet note( threw brick searching) but no others have been able to confirm this? Will it fall to the waste side and potentially be forever ignored or do ALL replacement notes eventually (5-10-25Years) get confirmed.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

MG

With regards to the notes that were confirmed by the BoC, I believe that was a very special and unique situation- having to do with a note that was exposed to media that was out of sync with the other notes exposed to media, so the BoC pretty much was cornered into making a statement pof some form.

ALl other cases I have heard about, the BoC remains silent on the actual number ranges because it is something that is done pre-BoC, at the printers.

Granted, there must be some sort of controls out there where the BoC would be able to bring up a file of the number ranges being transported....   for safety, in the case of a hijacking or theft.

Each super brick has a bag number which corresponds to it's prefix, and series, and those one could imagine can trace the precise serial numbers to the printing company.  However, the bag numbers bear the BoC logo.  Whether they are applied at the printers, as part of their contract, or at the BoC, we do not know for sure...

What we do know, is that the BoC had to make a statement on this one particular case.

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Hudson A B
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2009, 11:49:54 am »

I did go threw a brick of $50 last week, i found the brick to be just as frustrating as a brick of $20. Not one thing was found including radar or repeater. My fear is that a brick of $100 will be the same!?!?!?

Excellent, there are three brickers of $50s.

Yes, for $50s, you can expect to go through 100 bricks (BABN) and find nothing. But when you do find something....  well, let me put it this way, the information of that brick is critically important. Just as much so is the info from the bricks were nothing is found.

Please report those as well, so that we know where inserts are NOT found, for that info also helps substantiate claims.   The $50s especially, since they are so scarcely accessible.



Happy to know  there is company.  

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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2009, 11:53:00 am »

but i won't hold my breath on that one!
Haha Me neither.  In the meantime, we can just do our best to provide as much information as possible.  The BoC knows what we do, and the info we have is beyond what they can release to the public, during the course of the note sseries. I found that out during my court case - traced a cash theft using insert notes!!  (I won the case!!)  But they wouldn't even let the RCMP have the information that I presented to THEM (BoC)!!

Sigh. Man I love this stuff.

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« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2009, 10:14:06 am »

Ok so am i reading this wrong?

in the article
www3.telus.net/cc-comp/article/article.doc

it mentions plate number 88F/76B should it not be 88F/67B? ???

Thank you
MG

You are correct, MG

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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2010, 09:34:52 pm »

Hey guys,

yes, this article has been kinda neglected with information that has been discovered since it was written. I am finally getting back into the hobby again and EVENTUALLY will be speaking with Hudson and others to get a full understanding of how all the new information fits in and then I will happily do a major overhaul of the article to include all new information discovered.

Sorry Ladies...I am now a Married Man!!!
 

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