Grading and Pricing in 20th edition

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

Just wondering if others subscribe to this school of thought.

There appears to be very little movement in pricing AU and below except on some of the rarer issues. Some UNC60 prices actually went down a tiny bit and some went up a tiny bit.

On the whole I get the feeling they left most of the prices the same because grading just became less stringent. Which in effect is the same as increasing prices. If an AU can now have a light center fold and UNC60 can have 3 problems with the note it has to flow down hill to all the other grades. Doesn't it ?

Is an old VF now a VF-EF
etc, etc

I'd like to here what other think.

If an AU can now have a light center fold and UNC60 can have 3 problems with the note it has to flow down hill to all the other grades. Doesn't it ?

I don't have my book yet so I can't say anything about the prices but I was wondering if an Unc 60 can have 3 problems does that mean most journeys pulled from bricks with a cutting cup, a wave or ripple and a band indent is still an UNC 60.
If this is the case, do most notes that were once considered UNC's are now going to be graded higher. For example a note with only a counting flick now goes to an UNC??.
It will be interesting once this grading gets more attention how are sellers on EBAY going to be describing their notes
Especially since the prices jump dramatically from AU to unc65

I have started regrading all my notes and what I have done is count each "Flick", "Ripple" and Band mark as 1 demerit point.

As an example:

I have a couple journey notes that have 2 ripples and a slight cutting cup. So these notes are graded CU60, but a some notes with no ripples and just a slight cutting cup are graded CHCU63

I had one note so far that had a slightly bent corner "Lets call it a bump" and a corner flick. I graded this note is AU55.

The only thing Charlton did not address is ripples. So I am using EACH individual ripple as a demerit.

GCU65 Notes are actually not THAT common. I have found so far about  3 / 10 of the 2002 $5 notes to actually fit this grade. Many have Flicks or some other very minor defect. the 2006 $5 notes are even fewer as they have ripples and cutting cups as well.

Just some food for thought. 

the 2006 $5 notes are even fewer as they have ripples and cutting cups as well.

It is unfortunate that no matter how hard you try to get that perfect note, it seems that there is always something there to screw it up. Crappy paper, Hercules using all his might to tighten a plastic band, or dull cutting blades.

or dull cutting blades.

After VERY VERY VERY close inspection of quite a few 2002 Journey $5 notes I did notice from time to time notes that WERE cut with dull tools. It was always along the bottom edge. Unless you look front he top of the note towards the bottom on the back of the note you might never see it  I was VERY surprised to see this. Last night was the first time I have seen this on a Journey Series note. 

I was VERY surprised to see this. Last night was the first time I have seen this on a Journey Series

Another demerit point
So what's the maximum number of demerit points a banknote can have before we can return it to the BOC so they can gives us a replacement note for it
Maybe this will work in our favour.  We won't have to brick search anymore. The BOC will just give us the replacements THINK SO

Could someone tell me what the term "cutting cup" refers to?

Thanks, Matt

Hi Matt!

WHat cutting cups are is an indentation in the note right near the security stripe. Notes printed by BAI have the Indentation on the bottom of the note but notes printed by CBN have it as the top of the note.

The notes in a bundle get progressively worse. It is thought to be caused by a resistance of the blade during the cutting of the notes with the security stripe.

With 2006 $5 Notes it is non-existent until about the 50th note or so and then it begins to slowly appear and by the 90's it is a very well defined Indentation in the note.

This indentation has been nicknamed a "Cutting Cup". 

Hope this helps.

thanks x-saviour.

two more questions.  does it manifest as a rough edge, or a bent edge?  is it more noticeable at the security thread or the holo strip?

It is located at the thread. It not NOT considered as either bent or rough edges or corners.
The 20th edition clearly defines cutting cups in the grading section.

This is the FIRST thing in grading Journey Series notes to determine a "Rough Grade"

No Cutting Cup = Could be up to GEM UNC 65
Slight Cutting Cup = Could be up to Choice UNC 63 MAX
Cutting Cup = UNC 60 MAX

After checking the cutting cup then ripples, flicks and other demerits are assessed to determine the final grade of the note (Usually to push the note down further if required).

So to me it is well defined EXCEPT no mention of ripples. So what I have done is every MAJOR ripple is 1 demerit but I have had a few notes that had 2 VERY light ripples so for those notes I combined them for 1 demerit. This was the only exception to this rule.

From what I can tell, charlton has taken the unc value in the old book and called it unc60 in the new book for scarcer notes/prefixes, with prices higher for premium unc notes, this is how it's been anyway.
 For easier notes, the old UNC price now becomes the UNC63 price, with unc60 a little lower, and unc65 a little higer. This is how it's been anyway.
 For really easy notes, the old unc price is now the gem price, and lesser uncs discounted, this is also how it's been.
 Seems to make sense. now it's just a matter of arguing which unc the note is, this is how it's always been.   

Initial impression is that there will be much confusion and debate on the new grades.
As the most widely used 3rd party US services , mainly PMG, who a few of the better known Canadian Paper Money dealers are both using and actively promoting, already use Unc 66 or higher with 'epq'  designations AND will grade a pressed note only an Unc 64 it will be be interesting.
I wonder if dealers will call an UNC 66 a Super Gem Unc and an UNC 67 a Super DuperPrimoExceptionale Unc? Should be fun.

Just wondering if others subscribe to this school of thought.

There appears to be very little movement in pricing AU and below except on some of the rarer issues. Some UNC60 prices actually went down a tiny bit and some went up a tiny bit.

On the whole I get the feeling they left most of the prices the same because grading just became less stringent. Which in effect is the same as increasing prices. If an AU can now have a light center fold and UNC60 can have 3 problems with the note it has to flow down hill to all the other grades. Doesn't it ?

Is an old VF now a VF-EF
etc, etc

I'd like to here what other think.

Well no one has really commented on my actual question. Do you see this flowing down to all the other grades too.