Harmer Schau Live Auction

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Harmer Schau Auction

Just recently an eBay live auction ended. The Harmer Schau auction. Just wanted to know if anyone here has purchased some of the notes that were listed or if you have purchased from them in the past

The scans provided for the lots were of terrible quality as the brightness was cranked way too high. The back scans were also omitted from the listings. When going trough the register of notes I noticed that most notes which were on the register were over graded by about a full grade. None the less prices realized for most notes were quite high. 1927 RBC “Neil” $20 listed in VF ($900 US + 20% fees), 1916 Molson Bank $5 listed in Fine ($1500US + 20% fees), 1930 BNS Jamaican note 1 pound VG ($1550 + 20%fees).

These are great prices for this time of year.

Please feel free to share your opinions

The Canadian prices were not as good as the prices realized for the US National lots. 

Lot 89 serial #1 note estimate $5000-5500 realized $57,500
Lot 94 estimate $10000-12000 realized $38000 
Lot 99 finest of 13 known  estimate $2500-3000 realized $42,000 

The Canadian chartereds have some catching up to do.

Correction on the hammer of the 1916 Molson. Hammer was $1,100 US. I bought it.
Who knows how much these scans are overblown? If they are misrepresentative of the notes, they will go back.
Agreed, the scans may have made the notes look better than the stated grades in some cases.
On the other hand, this auction house is primarily a stamp vendor and many of the notes may have been undergraded.
Again, if a discrepancy warrants, the notes will be returned. That's the good side of an internet auction with a reputable auction house...

Perhaps the initial reference was to the Molson $5 of 1922, which did go way over book value. It's a fairly common note that can be found relatively easily in UNC for about the hammer price in the H/S auction....

The scans were terrible but I'd have to disagree with the initial poster as to the notes being over-graded. Quite a few notes seem to pop up in the US that aren't in the register. Besides, if you weren't there how can you know the grade? If the notes were undergraded then price becomes moot and some looked undergraded. As rp noted, they had low estimates for the most part-DoC 1912 $5, estimate was under a grand, looked to be a stronger grade than was assigned and brought 3400 or so. I always look at the bids, if there's a lot of floor action, note is probably undergraded. Or people may have went and viewed and bid on-line if a note had lots of action and brought strong money. Person never knows unless they're there.
As for Molsons notes, not all that easy to find in better grades and I'm a buyer of those easy to find 1922 Unc's if anyone has spares.

Good points rp. Not sure about repatriation but buyer fatigue, yes.
I'd also throw into the toxic mix some sellers on eBay, a couple purporting to be 'experts' in Canadian currency, particularly charters who did very well selling hype for a year or so-asking and getting ridiculous money for notes from fish.
Over the past year these people have been identified as nothing more than wannabe used car salesman who keep recycling the same product or their listed prices are so ridiculously high collectors for the most part simply avoid eBay altogether. Consequently, when a realistically priced & graded note is offerred (particularly a charter) on eBay it seems to do poorly or nothing at all. Canadian paper is still a relatively small field & even the dumbest laziest collector eventually learns. Hence why PMG is all the rage right now but even that is slowing down, particularly in the circulated grades 
They aren't that good at grading in my opinion. Eventually, with the permission of the admins here I will be posting examples of cross graded notes by CCGS & PMG. Have done about 10 to date, my pet research project & the differences in grading on 6 out of 10 are quite impressive.

Thank you all very much for your comments.

I did have huge doubts after doing some research that the notes would be over graded but most of them were sold to floor bidders. As they had full opportunity to view the notes perhaps the scans were better representations of the notes than I first assumed.

Alvin 5454, I would love to see some scans of your note when you get it if at all possible.

Regards

I was also very surprised of the prices in the auction. I spoke with the auction a few weeks ago, as I was also concerned with the pictures and the grading of the notes. According to them, they have a third party come in and grade the notes, and the auction tends to have them usually under-grade the notes in the auctions by half a grade or so.

If you have purchased a note from the Auction, and have it graded by a third party source, and the grade comes back less then they have advertised, according to my conversation, they will refund you your money upon retune of the note.

Agio-
If the cross ref'd notes are not allowed on this forum site, I would be happy to post them up on my site, or I am sure another member would be happy to do so as well.  The point of course it get them seen.

H

HOLY BAT CRAP!
If I had purchased a note from Harmer it would be my pleasure to take them up on their tpg  offer.
Of course said note would be heading to Calgary.

Now if a particular canadian auctioneer would adopt such a policy we'd either have Armageddon or world peace

If I had purchased a note from Harmer it would be my pleasure to take them up on their tpg  offer.
Of course said note would be heading to Calgary.

To which they would respond "We only recognize US tpg services"

Agio: About ease of the higher-grade 1922 notes, I refer you to page 270 in the newest Charlton chartered catalogue: There is information there about a hoard of these notes... Have some patience and you will probably find one of these notes in higher grade..

Thats true the Molson 1922 $5 has shown up in AU/UNC a few times in the past couple years. This remains the only $10 denomination I have seen in a long time. Perhaps the hoard was sold as is to one single collector who will keep it in a safe for many years to come?

This remains the case for many chartered notes. We know they exist but they never show up on the market. These dont even have to be considered rare they are just hoarded in some unknown basement safe

Thats true the Molson 1922 $5 has shown up in AU/UNC a few times in the past couple years. This remains the only $10 denomination I have seen in a long time. Perhaps the hoard was sold as is to one single collector who will keep it in a safe for many years to come?

According to Charlton, the $5 & $10 Molson UNC hoards were "rescued" in the 1960's (40 or so years ago) so it's pretty safe to assume that the hoards have been largely dispersed by now although a few short consecutive runs probably still exist. I very much doubt whether a run of 50 or 100 notes is still lingering in a basement somewhere. I remember when these notes were selling around the $200 level and at that time supply exceeded demand. How times change!

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The 1922 $10's aren't quite as plentiful as the $5's.  I will give you a bit more detail than is usually published.  The hoard in question was saved for collectors by a Montreal dealer named Phil Spiers, if I recall the name correctly, about 1960, when such notes were often redeemed and destroyed.  "Rescued" is the correct word.  The notes have become very well distributed since.  There was a $10 in the June 2003 Torex Sale, and another (not a hoard note, and the most heavily circulated example known! - "rare in this grade") was offered on-line in 2005.
I agree with Ottawa that it is highly unlikely that any one person has a bunch of them.

Alvin, I know what the Charlton cat says about the Molson's 22 series but as I haven't had a bunch of pm's offering me the notes I'll reserve judgement as to the ease of acquiring them and reiterate my willingness to buy them in the AU/Unc grades
The Charlton Catalogues are invaluable tools for note collectors however I wouldn't say they have their finger on the market pulse.
I already have both the 5 & 10 but am willing to buy more and I don't even find them all that attractive

Translation: The only people who know something about the current market are not on the Charlton catalogue's pricing panel.
I beg to differ.
The people who knock the catalogue's pricing tend to be the ones with the most expensive notes to sell (hint hint).

Not at all rp and if you consider that knocking the prices, wait til I get frisky  .
On some notes, not all, the Charlton Charter Cat is woefully out of touch. I'm not talking about a 'Rare 1935 Royal Bank $5 in Gem VG!! only 30000 known!!!' here, I'm referring to earlier notes in higher grades. A couple of obvious examples are the BNS 1908 $5 in VF or better, the 1925-29 BNS $20 in EF or the Royal 1913 $10 in VF or better. Accurately graded these notes command much stronger prices than cat. As do any other attractive notes or truly scarce ones or even notes that aren't so scarce but are in higher grades hence why my offer still stands to buy the Molson's 22 series in AU/Unc for cat. While not a particularly scarce note, in Au/Unc would sell above the cat price in my opinion. the Catalogues aren't bibles, that was my point.

Hey Agio

That is an excellent question and I have been wondering that for a while too. After speaking with some member of the pricing panel, here is what I was told. A lot of the notes you have listed are not rare. Yes they are scarce in the assigned grade but because there are a couple hundred surviving 1913 Battleship notes (many of which are VG-VF) this does affect the value of higher grades. The prices are not only relevant to what has happened in the market for the past 4 years but also to the number of known remaining example and history trends. Take the Battleship note for example, I was told that the old auction catalog indicate that 10 have survived in UNC. 10 is still a big number for UNC chartered notes and if they all came on the market perhaps the first would go for multiple of book but the last may linger online for a few months and sell cheaper than book while also crushing the demand for lower grades.

Basically the pricing panel would rather see the values get a constant steady increase for every year than one big spike of values followed by a decrease. The steady increase will usually leave most notes slightly under priced, as it would rather not readjust for every little hiccup of the market. Such a thing is expected as the values get too high in the pricing guide, collectors tend to sell off a lot of their notes. This creates more supply than there is demand and the prices drop. 

Those that sell notes at multiples of book do so because they have the only or best available such note. They hold it hostage at those prices because who knows when the next one will pop up.

Thank you for confirming my point of view Rachelsprivates

I forgot to mention this in the last post which will strengthen your point of view for book values Agio. Some of the scarcer notes which do not see any market activity during the edition’s shelf life will most likely not go up in value. Take for example the 1892 Canadian Bank of Commerce $10 with the Yukon overprint. The value remains steady at around $10,000 to $12,000 but could easily realize around $20,000 to $25,000 trough a skilled salesman. Same goes for many discovery notes which tend to start off at 1,000 to 2,000. Any dealer will see this as an opportunity to make an easy 10G.

I re-read my post and couldn't find any statement where I said the pricing panel had a secret agenda nor did I say I wanted to see prices higher.
I'm pretty clear in what I write so I'll chalk the statements made after up to interpretation or a lack thereof.
I listed a few examples of attractive well selling notes that on a regular basis sell above catalogue in better grades. Personally I could care less what the catalogue says when it comes to selling any particular note. If the catalogue values a note at 1000 in a particular grade and they are selling for 700 then that's the value isn't it? The reverse is true as well.
As for rare notes, unless they're attractive, who cares? A beat up rare note has little chance of selling for strong money as it appeals to a very small group of collectors.

For rp:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
mar·ket      /ˈmɑrkɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mahr-kit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
3. a meeting of people for selling and buying
4. the assemblage of people at such a meeting.
5. trade or traffic, esp. as regards a particular commodity
6. a body of persons carrying on extensive transactions in a specified commodity
7. a body of existing or potential buyers for specific goods or services
16. to dispose of in a market; sell

On some notes, not all, the Charlton Charter Cat is woefully out of touch.

Sorry if I wasted your time by misinterpreting your previous reply. I posted this information above for anyone interested in reading it.

Any catalogue is only a guide. Catalogues, especially those that are long periods between editions, are generally behind the curve, whether it's upward or downard.
Current market knowledge is extemely valuable, as is a general feel for the market. Those factors are acquired only through constant vigilance.
An opinion on how often any given note hits the market, such as the 1916 Molson $10 I purchased, will certainly influence how much anyone will pay for it, regardless of the catalogue (guide) price.
I say this with all due respect for those who set catalogue prices, based on opinions of many folks who monitor market conditions on a regular basis.
Those who buy strictly on the basis of catalogue prices will always be subject to missing notes they want, or paying too much. Those who sell notes strictly on the basis of catalogue prices risk giving them away or having them longer than they want to...

As this exchange of thoughtful ideas now seems to be breaking down, I will simply say that the Charlton catalogue seems to be very close to getting prices right on many notes. Many notes could be priced higher but are not for very good reasons which are not always made clear to the reader.

Whenever I sell better chartered notes on eBay using the unreserved auction format the final realization is invariably much much closer to the Charlton Catalogue values than to the prices I see asked for similar notes in eBay Stores. Many better notes have been languishing unsold in eBay Stores for well over a year which surely serves no useful purpose for either buyers or sellers? In fact, when scarce notes remain unsold in eBay Stores for long periods of time that could be interpreted by some people that the market is dead whereas in reality it's very much alive, at least when items are properly priced.

In my opinion, the Charlton catalogue provides an excellent overall guide to current values for "typical" examples of the various grades. Of course, when an exceptional example of a scarce note with a beautiful vignette shows up that is fully original and with nice margins and colours then it should not be surprising to see such a note sell for significantly over catalogue in an unreserved auction. However, that fact alone does not mean that the catalogue is trailing the market on an overall basis.

Well, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers so sorry if I did. Just seems like some people deliberatley misinterpreted because they enjoy being argumentative. *shrug*

Anyhow, I agree with alvin54 who basically reiterated my point  & Ottawa, yes the Charltons provide an excellent guide for typical examples  and my experience on ebay is the same as yours though as I said previously, many ebay sellers have hurt the market  and your statement brings us full circle.

Many of the notes languishing in ebay stores are for two reasons.

The ebay sellers that bought them paid insane speculative prices and are stuck with the notes or they have purchased the notes from other people be it private or dealers at full bore retail and are trying to double out and overgrading them while they're at it. How many times have you looked at a rare note in one of these ebay stores and felt it was overgraded? I see it all the time and know for a fact it is overpriced or overgraded or both because in a few cases I've sold them the note or worse, they've bought it from someone I've sold it to. In the short term it has screwed things up and with the advent of TPG services a lot of people are getting nasty surprises on notes they've acquired from these people and others but it'll settle down and good accurately graded Canadian paper money will always hold its value in my opinion because it's nice. We have some beauties.

Thats great news Mark, thanks for keeping us up to date

I was weary after seeing their estimated grades VS the registry.