Poll

What do you think the PMG grade was?

Choice AU 55
1 (6.7%)
Choice AU 58
0 (0%)
Unc 60
3 (20%)
Unc 62
1 (6.7%)
Choice Unc 63
2 (13.3%)
Choice Unc 64
3 (20%)
Gem Unc 65
2 (13.3%)
Gem Unc 66
2 (13.3%)
Super Gem Unc 67
0 (0%)
Super Gem Unc 68
0 (0%)
none of the above
1 (6.7%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Author
Topic: PMG Quiz  (Read 8086 times)
AL-Bob
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« on: January 03, 2008, 10:26:24 pm »

I removed this myself from a PMG holder. Click on the images for full size.

{http://cgi.numex.ca:8080/image/MB0000025_face_1.jpg:http://cgi.numex.ca:8080/preview/750/MB0000025_face_1.jpg}

{http://cgi.numex.ca:8080/image/MB0000025_back_1.jpg:http://cgi.numex.ca:8080/preview/750/MB0000025_back_1.jpg}

{http://cgi.numex.ca:8080/image/MB0000025_face_2.jpg:http://cgi.numex.ca:8080/preview/150/MB0000025_face_2.jpg} {http://cgi.numex.ca:8080/image/MB0000025_face_3.jpg:http://cgi.numex.ca:8080/preview/150/MB0000025_face_3.jpg} {http://cgi.numex.ca:8080/image/MB0000025_face_4.jpg:http://cgi.numex.ca:8080/preview/150/MB0000025_face_4.jpg} {http://cgi.numex.ca:8080/image/MB0000025_back_arrows.jpg:http://cgi.numex.ca:8080/preview/150/MB0000025_back_arrows.jpg}


AL-Bob(at)cdnpapermoney com
Hudson A B
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« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2008, 02:01:38 pm »

It is modified or counterfiet though isn't it?

How does a B/M get a FP of "5"?

Or maybe my eyes are not working....

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BWJM
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« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2008, 02:14:35 pm »

5 seems perfectly reasonable considering that A/M was the first prefix printed by BABN.

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President, IBNS Ontario Chapter.
Treasurer, Waterloo Coin Society.
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alvin5454
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« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2008, 05:16:15 pm »

So what was was the grade?
numismateer
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« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2008, 05:32:01 pm »

On the reverse lower boarder it looks like a couple staple holes as well, but I'm not sure. The note looks to be AU, but my guess is PMG called it CU64.
AL-Bob
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« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2008, 06:49:28 pm »

Okay here it is:

{http://cgi.numex.ca:8080/image/f626_3.JPG}

{http://cgi.numex.ca:8080/image/f75a_3.JPG}


AL-Bob(at)cdnpapermoney com
BWJM
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« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2008, 06:55:32 pm »

And people wonder why I am not a fan of TPG. sigh.


Consider this hypothetical scenario:

The hypothetical note in question is priced as follows:
- AU: $75
- UNC: $85
- C.UNC: $95
- G.UNC: $105

Dealer 1 has a note in a plain sleeve labelled "UNC" with no price.

The dealer takes a good look at it and assigns his own grade of "AU" because of a bad corner fold, several creases throughout, a spot of dirt, etc.

The dealer sends the note to PMG and it comes back UNC-66. "Nice!", he remarks to nobody in particular.

Being the dealer he is, he sticks a label on the PMG holder and prices the note at $115.00.

The note sits in his case for a few weeks, but then some poor schmuck buys it at a show. He balks at $115, but finally pays $110.

This schmuck decides he doesn't want the note any more, so he brings it to another Dealer 2 to sell it.

This dealer looks at the note, realizes that it was overgraded and declares it to be AU, pointing out the faults to the schmuck.

The dealer offers the schmuck $45 (60%) for the note because he "has to make something on it" when he sells it later.

So, PMG gets their cut for grading the note, the first dealer gets a nice fat margin because he was able to sell it for $110, and the second dealer will probably toss it right back into his case with the original $115 price tag on it, repeating the cycle. Our poor schmuck is suckered out of $65 with nothing to show for it.


This whole cycle is perpetuated on an even grander scale: Dealers are drawn to PMG because they can get a better price as a result of the overgraded PMG notes. PMG overgrades notes because they know that they can draw in the dealer market, each note coming with a fee that goes directly to their bottom line.

Sounds like a pretty sweet scam that PMG and the dealers have going for them!
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 07:16:52 pm by BWJM »

BWJM, F.O.N.A.
Life Member of CPMS, RCNA, ONA, ANA, IBNS, WCS.
President, IBNS Ontario Chapter.
Treasurer, Waterloo Coin Society.
Show Chair, Cambridge Coin Show.
Fellow of the Ontario Numismatic Association.
canada-banknotes
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« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2008, 08:34:50 pm »


We can take Brent's scenario one-step further when dealer #2 puts the note up on eBay with photos that
cleverly hide any of the note's defects.  This then leads to a feeding frenzy among collectors resulting in a
note that is probably worth $85 at best, selling for the astronomical final price of US $304  :'(

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290190094024

Arthur Richards
Contributor, Charlton Catalogue of Canadian Government Paper Money, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd and 29th Edition
Pricing Panel Member, Charlton Catalogue of Canadian Government Paper Money, 21st Edition 2009
Punkys Dad
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« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2008, 09:02:50 pm »

Aww mon, I missed da quiz deadline.

66 You got to be kidding me.

I wanna take Brent’s scenario beyond ludicrous.

Mr. Schmuck purses his lips and doesn’t sell it to Dealer 2 for the loss just yet. He says “So it is graded AU.” And  so he takes it to other Dealers 3,4, & 5 to look at it and a consensus has been established that the note is not Unc 66 as stated on the holder.
Schmuck then checks this out with his brother who works for a Legal department with the government and takes his information to the department of Consumer and corporate affairs and his MLA. Marketplace from the CBC gets hold of the story and does an undercover expose of the whole TPG system.
The Federal government tables a legislative bill setting out grading guidelines set out by Senator Dodge.
The Plaintiff Mr. Schmuck then approaches Dealer 1 then serves him a summons to appear in Court under the new Consumer Legislation. PMG is also named in a suit under the auspices of Conspiracy to commit fraud. While Mr. Schmuck is reimbursed by Dealer 1 so his/her reputation gets further damaged, meanwhile an increasing number complainants come forward and the legal action now becomes a full blown class action lawsuit.
PMG finally acknowledges their error, apologizes for their error, demotes an unnamed grader, and publishes their grading guidelines and coughs up for the punitive fines.
PMG finally becomes a reliable grader and starts to move out of the Red.
EBay then knocks PMG off their sellable “TPG list” just like CCGS.
Can’t win mon.
 :(

$304 mon...there you go.

"Is da truth worth anyting?"
PD

Teeny guy on my shoulder sez, It's only money mon
Ottawa
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« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2008, 12:27:57 pm »

So great is the degree of inconsistency with PMG grading that I often get the impression that the graders at PMG seal the notes in plastic BEFORE grading them (i.e., they grade the notes through the plastic)! I find it difficult to come up with any other plausible explanation for the numerous cases of overgrading and grading inconsistency that most of us have seen countless times.  Unfortunately, third-party grading is now so entrenched within the business/hobby that things will likely never change. As in any business, it's important to keep your customers happy. Obviously, if third-party grading companies want to keep their clients happy they will tend to grade generously and will avoid using negative descriptions such as "Washed & Pressed", "Ironed", "Chemically Treated", etc. on their holders. 
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 03:43:50 pm by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
AL-Bob
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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2008, 05:20:16 pm »

Well, thanks for the sympathy guys.  The price wouldn't have been so bad if it was really gem, since I was looking for a nice B/M to complete the prefix series.  Way more than I would have expected to ever be able to sell it though.

But I'd have to agree, AU-ish, $85 or so. :'(  And still have a B/M to find now.

I had heard some good opinions of the PMG from collectors so figured it couldn't be as bad as the grading claims of some seller, but I stand corrected!

I don't see this kind of inconsistent grading to be sustainable business practice for a TPG firm.

But, the fact that (over) graded notes like this continue to attract a premium just suggests to me that there is strong demand for AU, AU+ notes. It's just the headings in the book that are all shifted over.

Better start going to more shows now.  ;D
« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 09:47:28 pm by AL-Bob »


AL-Bob(at)cdnpapermoney com
 

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