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Topic: Attn: All forum Members. This is important.  (Read 7071 times)
friedsquid
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« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2008, 10:55:33 am »

Quote
Yeah.... That doesn't confirm squat, in my opinion. That could just be a response from someone who looked at your email, said "yeah, that looks like it could be true" and replied accordingly. The BoC hasn't committed to a single thing in that email.

Even if it had, that would only lend credibility to two insert ranges, and not even say that the ranges themselves are correct. That would say nothing about any other insert range, which is largely just a guess by any of several different people.

So I guess if I was going to auction off my insert collection you wouldn't want to do it. ;D



Always looking for #1 serial number notes in any denomination/any series
Oli1001
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2008, 12:42:52 pm »

Yeah.... That doesn't confirm squat, in my opinion. That could just be a response from someone who looked at your email, said "yeah, that looks like it could be true" and replied accordingly. The BoC hasn't committed to a single thing in that email.

Even if it had, that would only lend credibility to two insert ranges, and not even say that the ranges themselves are correct. That would say nothing about any other insert range, which is largely just a guess by any of several different people.


There is no doubt that the Bank of Canada recognizes inserts as replacements. There are emails out their confirming that fact but I am unable to use them as support for my argument because they are not of public domain.

I do agree that each specific range is determined by collectors but they are by no means done arbitrarily. The information is gathered from a network of trusted collectors across Canada.

The ranges may not be exact but they are very accurate. Only until/if the Bank of Canada releases records will those figures be exact. If they kept information on test note ranges (ER/GR), then it is possible for them to have kept information on modern replacements as well.
Punkys Dad
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2008, 02:46:45 pm »

This means that the forum will become boring and will be revised to have the following category structure,

CANADIAN PAPER MONEY FORUM
      SPECIAL
        ASTERISKS and X-NOTES
         INSERTS and so-called-REPLACEMENTS-now-just   
                   –regular-notes-so-what-do-I-care-anymore.

Instead of brick searching I’d be at home counting and recounting my anti-depressants and signing up for needlepoint classes. Anyone know a good needlepoint forum?
It was nice while it lasted  :'(

PD


Teeny guy on my shoulder sez, It's only money mon
polarbear
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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2008, 03:16:44 pm »

hi members 

here is my opinion.  I am a brick searcher and have relayed much of my finding to the appropriate people.


why would you put a totally different  prefix in a virgin brick.

hypothetical Example
 APG  5674000-APG 5674999  brick

 APF  2023XXX note is replacing APG 567688 because it is not there.

 why put APF in in the first place?

 Would it not be better to just keep the serial numbers continuous and have this original virgin brick be APG 5674000-APG 5675001.    Doesn't make sense does it.  If there is a total of 40 000 errors in 10 million notes we would only made 9600000 notes.  Screws up everything. 

So we get some guy or gal working at the printing shop to physically replace these notes for the ones that are originally taken out. 

Seems like more work for the printing company.

My real thoughts are that there were huge numbers of asteriks and x notes produced. It could be more then what is produced as modern day replacements

Dealers nowadays are too lazy to see that there is a possible new addition to the hobby with replacement notes and are just comfortable with the idea of having to look at plain and simple asterick/x notes.   
 

We as the hobby collector decide what is going to be popular and what is not.  We have beleived that asteriks and rotators, GR and BER are popular.  The modern day replacements is just a continuation of the hobby  and really shows us collectors and brickers that ....Wow the printing company really can make  a lot of mistakes even with all this technology they  have.

Probally never have there been so many eyes on the Bank of Canada asking so many questions on the production of paper money. 

cheers

Polarbear
jtfrogger
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« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2008, 06:53:23 pm »

I am very new collecting paper money.  However, I am not new to collecting.  (When asked about hobbies, my answer is that participating in various hobbies is my hobby!  ;D)

My basic thought on this, is that a price guide is an attempt to document the market place not an attempt to create the market place.  A price guide may confirm to some buyers that a given price is reasonable or not, but it does not drive the value.  The value of a given item is merely the price for which sellers and buyers agree to meet.

Have you ever been to an auction (another hobby of mine) and see something go for substantially more or substantially less than you could have imagined?  I have seen both.  Once time I was hoping to buy something specific for $20 and it went for over $200.  I have also seen items that I felt were "worth" hundreds of dollars go for tens of dollars.  I didn't buy them, because the final prices weren't worth that to me.

So, it is plausible that some collectors may stop collecting replacement notes if they do not have a good price guide to compare value.  However, how many people here would just toss their replacement collection into circulation to get face value for it?  I suspect not many.  If many do, then known replacement notes in uncirculated condition will become even rarer.

As for the future, who knows?  I have watched interesting patterns regarding value.  Most collectibles go in cycles.  If have seen situations where many people are interested in a particular item just because it appears that other people are interested in it.  Values for such items are interesting roller-coasters.  They spike up in value quickly, because everyone sees it as the next hot thing.  Then once people try to sell their hoard, prices drop substantially when they realize there are many more sellers than buyers.

So, my opinion is that if Charlton stopped publishing prices for some replacement notes, it would be an annoyance, not an end to a hobby.
Ottawa
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« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2008, 07:21:26 pm »

..... Thus, whereas "traditional" replacement notes (i.e., Asterisk notes and X-suffix notes) were prepared specifically with the intention of performing replacement duty, modern insert notes are not (as far as we know) prepared specifically to perform replacement duty. Modern insert notes are nothing more than regular-issue notes that are taken "off the shelf" when a need for replacement notes arises (the only exception to this would be a distinctive prefix that was employed solely for insert purposes) ...........

I can certainly understand the thrill of locating insert notes when one withdraws cash at an ATM or when one is searching through a bank brick. Unfortunately, the latter scenario, which requires substantial cash resources, doesn't apply to me! In fact, a few months ago I experienced the "thrill" in person when I withdrew $1000 cash at an ATM and received 50 crisp new $20 notes. This stash comprised 46 regular EZN notes and 4 EZL (8.640M-9.000M) notes. The 4 EZL notes appeared "back to back" by the way. I subsequently sold off the EZL notes on eBay in two lots (see Item 220201329496) as I found that the "thrill" quickly wore off after owning the notes for a couple of weeks!

The main point of my previous post was to emphasize the fundamental nature of modern insert notes. In my opinion, modern insert notes are nothing more than regularly-printed notes that are grabbed off the shelf or out of storage when a need for replacement notes arises. These notes may indeed have been employed for replacement purposes, but, in my opinion, they were not specifically printed for replacement purposes in the way that Asterisk and X-suffix notes were. Herein lies the immense fundamental difference between modern insert notes and Asterisk & X-suffix notes.

In order to further emphasize my points, just suppose that you were to show a crisp 1954 Asterisk note to a paper money dealer in Britain, Singapore, or Australia. Based upon my personal experiences, I can assure you that the dealer would be very interested in acquiring it! However, try convincing an overseas dealer (and probably some Canadian dealers too) that your Unc $20 AZN 3150222 note is worth $250 while the Unc $20 AZN 3140222 note in his shop is worth just $35 ..... and see what sort of reaction you'll get!

There's certainly nothing wrong with studying and collecting modern insert notes but I personally feel that they have been over-hyped for what they really are. I just don't see how these modern insert notes will be able to maintain their collector interest level and value over the long haul, i.e., the next 10, 20 or more years .... but maybe I'm missing something?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 08:41:39 pm by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
Ottawa
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« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2008, 09:33:22 pm »

It should be stressed, and strongly so, that not all notes that were originally printed as replacements were necessarily used for replacement purposes.  Whenever replacement notes don't get used up for their intended purpose they can, at least in principle, be issued in bulk just like regular notes. This assertion would explain the existence of many improbably long sequences of consecutive replacement notes that are known. This matter involving long sequences of replacement notes is addressed in more detail in the following recent thread:

http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/forum/index.php?topic=7261.0

In closing, it is important to stress that the above observations apply equally well to discernible replacements (i.e., Asterisk and X-suffix notes) as well as to non-discernible replacements (i.e., modern inserts).
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 07:05:06 am by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
friedsquid
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« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2008, 09:52:24 pm »

Quote
not all notes that were originally printed as replacements were necessarily used for replacement purposes.  Whenever replacement notes don't get used up for their intended purpose they can in principle be issued in bulk just like regular notes,
So then, are we overpaying for asterisk replacements that are not really replacements in the true sense.    ???
I better just stick with the asterisk devil face notes .....they have to be worth something ;D



Always looking for #1 serial number notes in any denomination/any series
Hudson A B
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« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2008, 10:56:15 pm »

Replacements (which is what they are) are a part of the collecting hobby.

I don't see them vanishing.
We must not forget the role modern replacements have had in our discovery of very detailed banknote information.

It helped me win a case in court btw. 

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Ottawa
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« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2008, 07:33:17 am »

So then, are we overpaying for asterisk replacements that are not really replacements in the true sense ... ???

For me personally, it is more important that the note in question was specifically printed for replacement purposes than whether it was actually used for replacement purposes. In particular, the exact route which an Asterisk note or X-suffix note actually followed from the time it was printed to the time that it gets into my hands today (typically 10 to 50 years later) does not worry me at all. However, I realize that other collectors may have different viewpoints on this matter, especially in the context of non-discernible modern insert notes.

Perhaps we should introduce the concept of a "remainder" replacement to describe those replacement notes that were specifically printed for replacement purposes but did not actually perform replacement duty. This would be analogous to the old chartered bank remainder notes, i.e., those that were prepared for use but were never fully signed and put into circulation.

By the way, what Hudson said about the study of modern replacement notes leading to the unearthing of detailed bank note printing and related information is very true indeed. This is a scholarly and useful endeavour.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 07:45:02 am by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
friedsquid
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« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2008, 07:45:02 am »

Maybe in the new series that follows the Journey's, the Bank of Canada could come up with a better way  than using ranges of certain serial numbers for replacement notes......How about doing something like WHERE'S WALDO?
They could hide him somewhere within the note and really make this hobby fun.
I bet we could get a lot more kids interested in collecting too.... ;D
And maybe some "WHERE'S BRAD PITT OR TOM CRUISE" so we can get some of our wifes to start collecting too.



Always looking for #1 serial number notes in any denomination/any series
Oli1001
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« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2008, 07:52:46 am »

I can certainly understand the thrill of locating insert notes when one withdraws cash at an ATM or when one is searching through a bank brick. Unfortunately, the latter scenario, which requires substantial cash resources, doesn't apply to me! In fact, a few months ago I experienced the "thrill" in person when I withdrew $1000 cash at an ATM and received 50 crisp new $20 notes. This stash comprised 46 regular EZN notes and 4 EZL (8.640M-9.000M) notes. The 4 EZL notes appeared "back to back" by the way. I subsequently sold off the EZL notes on eBay in two lots (see Item 220201329496) as I found that the "thrill" quickly wore off after owning the notes for a couple of weeks!


The main point of my previous post was to emphasize the fundamental nature of modern insert notes. In my opinion, modern insert notes are nothing more than regularly-printed notes that are grabbed off the shelf or out of storage when a need for replacement notes arises. These notes may indeed have been employed for replacement purposes, but, in my opinion, they were not specifically printed for replacement purposes in the way that Asterisk and X-suffix notes were. Herein lies the immense fundamental difference between modern insert notes and Asterisk & X-suffix notes.

In order to further emphasize my points, just suppose that you were to show a crisp 1954 Asterisk note to a paper money dealer in Britain, Singapore, or Australia. Based upon my personal experiences, I can assure you that the dealer would be very interested in acquiring it! However, try convincing an overseas dealer (and probably some Canadian dealers too) that your Unc $20 AZN 3150222 note is worth $250 while the Unc $20 AZN 3140222 note in his shop is worth just $35 ..... and see what sort of reaction you'll get!

There's certainly nothing wrong with studying and collecting modern insert notes but I personally feel that they have been over-hyped for what they really are. I just don't see how these modern insert notes will be able to maintain their collector interest level and value over the long haul, i.e., the next 10, 20 or more years .... but maybe I'm missing something?

The immense fundamental difference between modern insert notes and Asterisk & X-suffix notes is, by your own admission, based on an opinion. Thus I am unsure why you trying to draw any conclusions from a personal opinion based on no evident facts.

All being said, I do agree that there is a possibility that not all modern insert replacements were printed for replacement purposes. It does however make it difficult to explain why many insert ranges span somewhere between 9.000M-9.9999. It seems that the 9.000M-9.9999M notes have mostly been printed and set aside for replacement purposes.

In regards to the collectability of insert notes and their level of value over the long term. They have been collected for over a decade now with seems to prove their test in time. The recent 'hype' has been attributed to a wealth of new collectors who are interested in collecting something they can see. Something they can see in the sense of being able to examine notes they see every day and collect them in any condition they find. Based on observation, few collectors start collection Chartered notes from the get go. They will usually begin collecting a few modern notes - inserts, prefixes, changeovers - and then slowly venture backwards.

Ottawa
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« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2008, 08:30:36 am »

The immense fundamental difference between modern insert notes and Asterisk & X-suffix notes is, by your own admission, based on an opinion. Thus I am unsure why you trying to draw any conclusions from a personal opinion based on no evident facts.

All being said, I do agree that there is a possibility that not all modern insert replacements were printed for replacement purposes. It does however make it difficult to explain why many insert ranges span somewhere between 9.000M-9.9999. It seems that the 9.000M-9.9999M notes have mostly been printed and set aside for replacement purposes.

In regards to the collectability of insert notes and their level of value over the long term. They have been collected for over a decade now with seems to prove their test in time. The recent 'hype' has been attributed to a wealth of new collectors who are interested in collecting something they can see. Something they can see in the sense of being able to examine notes they see every day and collect them in any condition they find. Based on observation, few collectors start collection Chartered notes from the get go. They will usually begin collecting a few modern notes - inserts, prefixes, changeovers - and then slowly venture backwards.

Yes, it's very true that a lot of what has been said, on all sides, is based on personal opinions that have been developed during the analysis of empirical (i.e., circumstantial) evidence. Different people will come to different conclusions based on the same evidence. However, this is the fundamental nature of research in any field of endeavour.

The most fundamental difference between traditional (Asterisk & X-suffix) replacements and modern insert replacements is that the traditional ones carry a very obvious and distinctive "label" on them that says "I'm a Replacement" or at least "I was printed as a Replacement". Modern insert notes do not carry any such obvious or distinctive label. The label, if it exists, is codified within the serial number in a very complicated, arbitrary and unpredictable way and this label is only evident via the information available on this Forum or via the Charlton catalogue. If you don't have your catalogue with you (or an excellent memory) when you come across some possible insert notes at a flea market then that would cause problems.

Another significant problem relates to the fact that some of the modern insert ranges published in the catalogue change from edition to edition as a result of new circumstantial information that comes to light. This could conceivably cause major problems for some buyers and sellers (particularly in other countries) who might be using an older edition of the catalogue. For example, someone might buy a rare insert based on what his/her older edition says only to find a few years later that their note was not an insert at all. However, presumably all insert ranges will eventually be "frozen" and not require further change.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 09:39:36 am by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
hanmer
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« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2008, 07:28:47 pm »

I've bought a few, and found a few. I like the idea of * or X to denote a replacement note, but they still serve the same purpose. I do see the point concerning overseas dealers, they'll just buy more RADAR notes instead.

:)


:)
Dr.Bill
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« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2008, 08:21:58 pm »

I agree with Freedomschoice statement that many collectors will abandon  the hobby if modern replacement notes and snr’s are not included in Charlton’s 21th edition. In that case, there is no need to purchase a Charlton’s catalogue. I would be very disappointed if modern replacements notes are omitted and I am sure many of you would agree with me that it should be listed.

We know that modern replacement notes do exist, whether it is discernible or indiscernible from regular notes. 

My prediction is that modern replacements and snr’s will be listed in Charlton’s 21st edition. However, there will be changes to some of the ranges as new research and information becomes available.

There will always be skeptics and nonbelievers regarding this topic, just as there are people who thinks they can treat the common cold with antibiotics.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 09:10:41 am by Dr.Bill »
 

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