Attn: All forum Members. This is important.

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

Had an interesting conversation today with someone who understands and contributes a lot of information to this hobby. It seems that maybe on the horizon (or the near future) that possibly inserts from the tail end of the bird series (got, gph etc etc) and all the inserts  in the journey series might not be recognized in the Charlton Edition of the Canadian Government Paper Money. Its being considered that only notes with the asterisk and x notes will only be published. If this is the case, I can tell you this will be the death of all new collectors and the death of a few of us older collectors. I personally will leave the hobby the next day. I am a collector of inserts etc etc. Its not  collecting common notes that attract collectors. They are useful in getting peoples attention, but they are not the notes that put the fire in the belly. New collectors collect the inserts from today's notes because they are affordable with a few exceptions. This is what sustains the hobby..... the new collector and keeps older collectors interested. I can only hope that what I have heard is only someones musings and not the direction that will be coming. If you care about this hobby, make it known to the people who count, that this is not acceptable and most certain tingly will be the death bell of the hobby. I left collecting coins and can certainly leave paper money just as easily. So forum members.....speak up.....its your hobby. Whether your for this or against, let your voice be heard.   Freedomschoice

It will be like countries that have hyper inflation,just print new notes with more zeros making the old ones almost worthless.
Would make all inserts be worth face value

Had an interesting conversation today with someone who understands and contributes a lot of information to this hobby. It seems that maybe on the horizon (or the near future) that possibly inserts from the tail end of the bird series (got, gph etc etc) and all the inserts  in the journey series might not be recognized in the Charlton Edition of the Canadian Government Paper Money.

The statement you make is funny in the sense that I was speaking to someone very recently who also has a very important part in all of this and I was told the complete opposite of what you have heard.  In fact, I was looking forward to this years catalogue to see some of the prices that these new replacements would be starting at.

I guess only time will tell.....and as you, I hope what you have heard is wrong.

FRIEDSQUID

Quite frankly, I don't care about insert notes.  I do not collect them and I don't believe they should be worth more than any other ordinary note becasue they are not distinguishable from any other non-insert note.  There is absolutely no difference in the look, feel or paper composition of an insert note over an ordinary note.  The only reason they are valuable, so to speak, is because of some process of how they were inserted into a brick that nobody outside of the printers and the BofC should really care about.  At times, we cannot even say with 100% certainty that an insert note is in fact an insert note.

That's my opinion, sorry if I offended anyone.

This is the position as I see it:
Some corrections to certain ranges are needed, that's all.
The sky is not falling.
Relax!

This is the position as I see it:
Some corrections to certain ranges are needed, that's all.
The sky is not falling.
Relax!

My interpretation of the above is that we should not be expecting anything drastic above and beyond what has been done for several years now: range corrections.

It's those darn %@#! aliens from outer space I tell you. They are out to ruin the hobby if not the country's entire economy. This is bad...I didn't realize that they have infiltrated the very offices of Charlton too. Man this runs way too deep. 

I heard that after they remove the inserts, they are going to remove the Bird series completely, because they are kind of boring looking.


Okay- the above staement is false. I heard nothing from anyone (I am in a small town out of the loop), not even from aliens.

But it should be taken with great notice of what Bob and Brent said on this matter.


Hudson

I heard nothing from anyone (I am in a small town out of the loop), not even from aliens.

So do you teach your students about the aliens and how they are ruining the hobby......

Inserts are replacement notes and for that reason they must remain in the Catalogue.

I understand that some collectors choose not to collect them out of personal preference but I do not see why these current replacements would 'not make' any of the future Charlton Catalogues. Inserts-replacements have even been confirmed by the Bank of Canada (FEP) solidifying the fact that they are indeed have been used as replacement notes. They may not be as identifiable as asterisk notes or Bird's 'X' notes but they still are used to replace damaged notes. With the Bank of Canada confirming certain notes found by collectors as insert-replacements leads to the notion that there is a possibility that the Bank of Canada keep records - records which may be released after the series is over.

I think a part of the problem may stem from a handful of collectors who do not collect inserts. Seeing the ranges modified yearly, sometimes expanding while occasionally shrinking, gets them confused. One must remember that information is ever changing, regardless of the series, resulting in constant changes in the Charlton. Even in the last Catalogue asterisk ranges expanded and information about the FPN and BPN on the 1954 series was added. I guess new and expanding ranges within insert replacements is just part of this dynamic hobby.

Hudson; what will be removed next? I heard the 1935 series might be next....Hudson you can send all of your extra 1935's to me,

I tend to agree with actuary.I believe collecting inserts is a short term fad. I would not be surprised if they were not listed in the next guide.Personally if i find an insert I will try to sell it , but i would never buy one as an investment or to collect.

Quite frankly, I don't care about insert notes.  I do not collect them and I don't believe they should be worth more than any other ordinary note becasue they are not distinguishable from any other non-insert note.  There is absolutely no difference in the look, feel or paper composition of an insert note over an ordinary note. The only reason they are valuable, so to speak, is because of some process of how they were inserted into a brick that nobody outside of the printers and the BofC should really care about.  At times, we cannot even say with 100% certainty that an insert note is in fact an insert note. That's my opinion, sorry if I offended anyone.

I believe collecting inserts is a short term fad. I would not be surprised if they were not listed in the next guide.Personally if i find an insert I will try to sell it , but i would never buy one as an investment or to collect.

I agree strongly with the comments made by actuary6 and rocken above and I speak from the perspective of someone who has seen many changes in the market and in collecting trends since 1971. The issue is very clear in my opinion. Thus, whereas "traditional" replacement notes (i.e., Asterisk notes and X-suffix notes) were prepared specifically with the intention of performing replacement duty, modern insert notes are not (as far as we know) prepared specifically to perform replacement duty. Modern insert notes are nothing more than regular-issue notes that are taken "off the shelf" when a need for replacement notes arises (the only exception to this would be a distinctive prefix that was employed solely for insert purposes).

Let us look at a hypothetical example. Thus, EZL 8640111 (Cat. $100 in Unc-60) is asserted to be an insert note whereas EZL 7640111 (Cat. $25 in Unc-60) is asserted to be a regular-issue note although the two notes are, practically speaking, 100% indistinguishable from each other. I often wonder whether in 10 or 20 years time anyone will really care that EZL 8640111 was originally issued as an out-of-sequence note in an otherwise in-sequence brick whereas EZL 7640111 was issued as part of an in-sequence brick? Moreover, if new insert ranges continue to be identified at the current rate then in 10 or 20 years time the Charlton catalogue will be as thick as the Krause World Coin Catalogue!

What's really going on here, as I see it, is that regular-issue notes within certain specific serial number ranges (the so-called "insert ranges") are merely getting mixed up with notes from the non-insert ranges just like a deck of cards is shuffled at a casino. At the end of the day, all of the notes remain exactly the same but they just appear in a different order.

I'd be interested in knowing what the current state of thinking is on the above matters. I realize that my line of reasoning may go "against the grain" in some respects but I feel that these questions have to be asked, both for the good of the hobby in general, and particularly for the protection of new collectors who may be induced by high catalogue values to seek out insert notes and to pay large premiums above face value for them.

Insert-replacements are used specifically to replace damaged notes within a sequence of notes. Working on the exact same basis as asterisk notes.


The following is a response from a Bank of Canada representative to a private collector. The information is available on the internet;

"Following our telephone conversation and as discussed, this is the information you requested regarding the GPZ $5's and FDZ $10's that some collectors have noticed amongst bundles of notes received from financial institutions.

It seems highly likely that these notes were used to take the place of notes that did not meet quality standards set by the Bank. In a specific note order, there is normally a series of letters that are set aside by the printer for this purpose.

It is, however, entirely coincidental that these notes have the letter Z in their prefix and are in the 9 million range. In this particular note order, there will be other notes with the letter Z and the 9 million range, which were not necessarily used to take the place of notes that did not meet the quality standards during the production process.

I hope this information is helpful.

Sincerely,

Linda Setlakwe
Currency Education
Bank of Canada"


The Bank of Canada is clearly dancing around the topic in order to gain neutrality in their comments. If the notes were not used as replacements, they would not have offered the possibility of why the notes were discovered in that order. They would have simply abolished the idea of 'insert replacements'.

Originally I had always preferred what I would call the "*" replacement note since these are what I always believed were the true "replacements".  Easy to distinguish from the regular notes of the same series.
However, having originally brick searched for years looking for errors only, and honestly not even being aware of the now known "insert" note I wonder how many did I miss during my years of searching.  It wasn't until about a year ago that I came upon this site and picked up a new catalogue and started to see the ranges of these so called "insert notes".  I started to heavily brick search again and started to come across these unique notes.  As time passed, I had dry spells with no inserts and some very good luck at times, but I did see that it was not as easy as getting  a brick and getting an insert in it.  The benefits do not always out weight the costs, but it is addicting to say the least.
Many of my finds have been confirmed and some still awaiting that confirmation, but all in all it is like finding a needle in a haystack at times, but I enjoy it.
I started to collect them, buy them, and trade them, and now my insert/replacement notes are the bulk of my collection.  Hopefully it is not a fad, or a trend, and maybe just a lull in the market because of tougher times, but when you personally find one, it is special because you know that not everyone has one or can easily get one.  Only my opinion, but to each his own.


FRIEDSQUID

The following is a response from a Bank of Canada representative to a private collector. The information is available on the internet;

"Following our telephone conversation and as discussed, this is the information you requested regarding the GPZ $5's and FDZ $10's that some collectors have noticed amongst bundles of notes received from financial institutions.

It seems highly likely that these notes were used to take the place of notes that did not meet quality standards set by the Bank. In a specific note order, there is normally a series of letters that are set aside by the printer for this purpose.

It is, however, entirely coincidental that these notes have the letter Z in their prefix and are in the 9 million range. In this particular note order, there will be other notes with the letter Z and the 9 million range, which were not necessarily used to take the place of notes that did not meet the quality standards during the production process.

Yeah.... That doesn't confirm squat, in my opinion. That could just be a response from someone who looked at your email, said "yeah, that looks like it could be true" and replied accordingly. The BoC hasn't committed to a single thing in that email.

Even if it had, that would only lend credibility to two insert ranges, and not even say that the ranges themselves are correct. That would say nothing about any other insert range, which is largely just a guess by any of several different people.