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Topic: Collecting vs hoarding  (Read 10028 times)
mmars
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« on: June 02, 2010, 04:04:27 pm »

What are the differences between collecting and hoarding?  Are those differences subtle or significant?

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Rag Picker
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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2010, 04:17:40 pm »

Tough question!

I would suggest that collectors have a specific goal in mind and are selective on what they 'hoard' while Hoarders put away anything that they think might be of use later or of some value and don't like to throw anything out, sell or give away anything they're hanging on to even if there is no use for it.

ikandiggit
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2010, 07:52:47 pm »

Tough question!

I would suggest that collectors have a specific goal in mind and are selective on what they 'hoard' while Hoarders put away anything that they think might be of use later or of some value and don't like to throw anything out, sell or give away anything they're hanging on to even if there is no use for it.

That's pretty much my take on it as well.

Wizard1
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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2010, 11:13:53 pm »

That sounds about right. I think you could say that they are polar opposites of the general act of collecting.

Collecting being very specific with specific goals

while

Hording is just a very very broad form of collecting

mmars
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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2010, 11:41:48 pm »

...
Hording is just a very very broad form of collecting

So are some people true collectors while others are hoarders in denial?  I wouldn't mind hearing some opinions on what would constitute hoarding as the line between collecting and hoarding is subjective and blurry.

I'll put forward an example of what I consider hoarding.  Someone who tries to buy every example of a certain kind of note or coin is not really collecting.  And by "tries to buy", I don't mean they are always successful, but they are always at least lurking when the desired item hits the market.  For example, notes of, say, The Bank of Hamilton.  If one finds its way into a major public auction, boom, that buyer is there trying to get it, even if he/she has an identical piece already.  Ditto if a dealer has one on their mailing list.  And if one shows up on ebay... look out!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 12:40:52 am by mmars »

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Mortgage Guy
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2010, 05:15:32 pm »

You sure don't pick easy questions   ;)

My opinion with regards to your Bank Of Hamilton example to me would not be hoarding. The first thing that comes to mind is when people get on these collecting kicks such as matching serial numbers(many more exist). Some could have 100 matching notes and still want more. The Bank Of Hamilton example sounds very much like collecting to me as it's very specific; you never know why people would want several example of the same note. They could want many grades, different plate positions, signatures or have every known note in their collection.

To me the definition of hoarding is someone that knowingly  picks quantity over quality. Rather that spend good money on only 1 great note they rather have many more notes that are much more common and much less valuable. Their collections lack definition and they tend to jump on many collecting themes from one day to the next.  At first it could be signature combination then prefixes then radars and then why not radar/prefix collecting… and on and on. My observation in seeing people's collections ranging in sizes and styles is that they could have just as easily bought fewer notes (better quality) with much more impact yet they chose quantity. To me that's a hoarder.

Now personally speaking I find myself walking a fine line at times with Collecting VS Hoarding. I have 3 parts to my collection. The first is my Collection. Notes in this category are not for sell, the second are notes that are on the fence (working on themes and Ideas) and the third are notes that I am willing to part with. Now I do have specific requirements for the notes I want for my collection which at its core hasn't changed but what has changed is the various themes that have slowly developed over time which has increased the amount of notes kept. There is always a slight fear at times of what if I had kept a certain note that later turned out to be very interesting? If I get tired of a theme and I see that my goal is unobtainable I have no issue letting those notes go.

FYIW
MG

Always Buying Any Replacements and Special Serial Numbered Notes In C.Unc+ Condition
Punkys Dad
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2010, 09:14:32 pm »

I would think that newbies into the hobby tend to hoard more than collect, and after some time, experience, and past that excitement stage they would hopefully end up a more focused a collector.

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woodguy62
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2010, 10:18:40 pm »

Collecting - Obsession
Hoarding - Compulsion

LeelatheCute
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2010, 02:11:03 pm »

Collecting - Obsession
Hoarding - Compulsion



I wouldn't necessarily call collecting an obsession. It's certainly a hobby that they thoroughly enjoy, but obsession AND compulsion are in the same category as hoarding. If it APPEARS like it'll be useful, it's nabbed by the hoarder and stored. If this type of behavior continues, the stuff accumulates and it becomes overbearing. Not to mention the crazy amounts of money being spent.
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« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2010, 09:45:52 pm »

My definition is based on storage/display.
If its a big bucket of unsorted coins its a hoard
If the same amount is in coin binders and sorted then its a collection.
And anyone can be both collector and hoarder.

I collect banknotes depicting Tallships. And to a lesser degree, all watercrafts.
walktothewater
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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2010, 04:05:11 pm »

Mr Mars- you always challenge us with interesting questions:

I agree with most of what has been stated on this subject (esp how a collector is someone with a specific goal in mind while a hoarder could be considered someone with a less specific "wish list.")  I would have a hard time envisioning a collector waiting for the same obsolete bank note (where only low #'s exist), and dubbing him a hoarder- unless I meant it in a comical/cynical way.   He/she might be obsessed with the concept of having the most of one type of note.  I have met some obsessive prefix collectors- but that's another topic! ::)

Whenever I have heard the term "a hoard of notes has been discovered" it typically means that the person stashed a "stack" of notes in a)his/her safety deposit box or b) his/her shoe, mattress, the attic, etc.   Only rarely will this stack consist of lovely UNC like notes that a paper money "collector" will desire.  It is even more unlikely that the notes will be made up of radars, replacements, short prefixes, etc- because the hoarder was not a "collector."  He/she usually just wanted a nice stash of cash to draw on for a rainy day.  In most hoard discoveries, the hoarder is deceased, and the person finding the hoard has no idea if the notes are worthy of collecting (but now that we have the Internet- this is changing).  I may be wrong- but that is my understanding of a "hoard."

Now I think a new context for the term "hoarding" is emerging.   I do believe there are a few modern day collectors who have found stashes of less common notes (change-overs, replacements, etc) which he/she predicts will be worth more later on.  The sad fact is- as soon as it is discovered that there is a stash of notes out there - it will erode the book value.

I believe there are times when hoards have been discovered with little or no fanfare and then we see the market adjust as notes that we once thought were uncommon are no longer so hard to find.  This has happened with 1954, 1970's, and Birds/Journey series (and I'm sure all of us can think of the more common prefixes we keep seeing).   Just consider FEN, BEY, or FER to name a few.

I believe this phenomenon will always make the most recent series more vulnerable to market fluctations.  I have met a few collectors who will not collect beyond 1954 for that reason.




mmars
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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2010, 08:29:23 pm »

I guess the general consensus is that hoarding is random and potentially chaotic whereas collecting is more organized and deliberate.  However, what's more important than the intent of the person doing the collecting/hoarding is the perception of intent by others in the hobby.  And the type of material being collected/hoarded matters greatly too.

Forum member Ottawa previously shared the story of acquiring a "hoard" of 1935 Bank of Canada notes...
http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/forum/index.php?topic=8603.0

Even more significant is the almost legendary discovery of a hoard of Devil's Face notes worth a face value of several hundreds of thousands of dollars.  It was discovered in the city of Ottawa (I think) in the 1960s or perhaps the 1970s.  I heard that the owner, a well-known local businessman, tried to find a buyer for the entire hoard.  Whether or not that ever happened, I think many of the runs of consecutive Devil's Face notes that have hit the auction block in the past few years have originated from that hoard.

In both of the these examples, the notes in question did not have significant catalogue values at the time of their discoveries.  Only during the recent market upswing did their values increase, sometimes multifold.  The Devil's Face variety is internationally recognized and collected by people all over the world.  Even a hoard of many thousands of notes would not reverse the desire of world collectors from wanting examples of these notes.  The story of how the Devil Face portrait came to be reinforces the popularity of the note type.  So popularity, not just rarity, plays a big role in determining value.  Ditto for the notes in Ottawa's hoard of 1935 notes.  The 1935 series is popular, and at worst, a hoard of high grade notes hitting the market all at once would merely cause a slowing of the acceleration in value of these notes.  The 1935s, just like the Devil's Face notes, have been undervalued for a long time and have only recently moved much closer to their perceived equilibrium.

So I have to disagree with what walktothewater said about hoards depressing value.  There are, of course, exceptions where hoards DO cause problems.

The 1954 *N/Y replacement note saw its Unc value jump from $40 to $1,100 in the past decade.  Why?  It was perceived to be a sleeper rarity within a series that was lacking in interesting notes.  Recently, we just learned of the existence of two "hoards" of consecutively-numbered runs of these notes.  Personally, I call runs of uncirculated notes hoards, even though the persons who saved them are not hoarders.  I'm not surprised that there are runs of *N/Y notes out there.  You didn't have to be a banker to afford the face value of putting aside 5-10 consecutive notes.  What would surprise me is if the catalogue value of *N/Y notes keeps going up year after year.  But the Charlton pricing panel is an entirely different subject outside of this discussion.  Anyhow, I've yet to hear of any 1954 $20 *V/E hoards.  The Wiki register of *V/E notes is maturing nicely, and it's becoming clear that *V/E notes are not rare, but they are certainly not as common as *N/Y.  The cost of saving a run of *V/E notes back in the 1960's would have been prohibitive.

In the realm of chartered notes, there have been a few documented hoards.  The Bank of Nova Scotia 1935 $10 note is a popular piece, but I suspect its popularity is owing to a grand misconception of the note's availability coupled with a great deal of stupidity exerted by buyers.  The competition for these notes on eBay, for example, is akin to throwing a shank of beef into a piranha tank.  For a period of several years, there was one particular eBay buyer who went after almost every 1935 Bank of Nova Scotia note that was listed.  Even notes with tears, stains and/or pieces missing could still achieve $80-$100 because of active bidding involving that one person.  Even to this day, you could except far more for a 1935 BNS small size note on eBay than you could for a comparable Royal Bank or Bank of Montreal note.  However, at least a couple of experienced collectors and dealers have told me they have seen hoards of 50-100 low-grade BNS notes.  What happened to these hoards is anyone's guess.  A collector in Western Canada told me that the person who was buying BNS notes is a bank manager who wanted them to give to bank employees who reached the milestone of at least 20 years of service.  Frankly, I find that story hard to believe.  Heavily soiled and stained notes make lousy gifts, especially to people who are not collectors.  I'd rather receive a bonus in modern spendable cash.

The Union Bank of Canada's 1912 issues of $5 and $10 notes were the subject of a hoard of 50 or more notes owned by a dealer some years ago.  That hoard may have been broken up and sold off over time, meaning that notes of that issue may have been rare outside of the hoard, and most 1912 Union notes hitting the market in the past decade were once part of the hoard.  However, if that hoard is still intact, then these notes are not rare, and the huge upswing in price for these notes may be premature and unjustified.

Every hoard starts with one note.  I don't disagree with one former forum member who said that most people have hoards, not collections.  I wouldn't mind classifying my own collection as a hoard because there's no real focus to what I have.  I organize my notes by denomination and arrange them chronologically, but I don't have anything worthy of a display at the RCNA.  What my collection lacks is a lot of junk, and I think that's what makes a lot of other people's collection hoards.  Junk is low- to mid-grade notes worth little more than face value.  "Junk will always be junk", so I see no reason to hang onto it.  So I think a hoarder is someone who has an irrational belief that their junk will eventually become treasure.  Goodness knows, I would never chastise a person who gets rid of junk like well-circulated 1954 $1 and $2 notes that have not accrued value in the past 50+ years.  These notes need to be destroyed.  Most 1973 $1 notes, even in high grade, should be taken to the bank for a trip to the furnace.  A number of forum members would shriek in horror at this suggestion.  They say such junky notes are great for beginning collectors and for people assembling prefix sets.  I say rubbish.  Beginning collectors who don't move up to more interesting and more expensive items quickly will probably cease being collectors within 5 years.  Collecting common notes by prefix is not much of a challenge given how common these notes are.

Despite all I have said, the fine line between collecting and hoarding is still entirely subjective.  Some people set aside low-value items, and some people focus on high-value items.  I think the market collectively decides which person is the savvy investor and which one is labelled as potentially deranged  ;)

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