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Topic: Can a note get better with time?  (Read 13699 times)
mmars
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« on: March 09, 2011, 10:53:27 pm »

"Can a note get better with time?"

The answer is yes.  And if you ask whether a note can increase in grade when being submitted multiple times to the same grading company, the answer is again "yes".  Here's what I mean:

BEFORE:

{http://www.give-a-buck.com/special/075-18-10-bcs50.jpg}

AFTER:

{http://www.give-a-buck.com/special/075-18-10-bcs55.jpg}

This also tells us that some grading companies don't automatically check their database to see if a note has already been graded before.  One thing that has not changed, though, is the spelling mistake on Sir John Aird's name.
 ;)

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BWJM
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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2011, 11:23:49 pm »

In case there's any question of which one came first, [bcs]AE464[/bcs] (13-May-2009) was graded AU-50, and [bcs]AI902[/bcs] (13-Aug-2010) was graded AU-55.

BWJM, F.O.N.A.
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friedsquid
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2011, 11:32:38 pm »

Quote
"Can a note get better with time?"

The answer is yes.  And if you ask whether a note can increase in grade when being submitted multiple times to the same grading company, the answer is again "yes". 

So how many more times does this note have to be submitted before it becomes a
GEM 66   :-D
Wanna start a pool ?



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twoinvallarta
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2011, 09:41:02 am »

"Can a note get better with time?"

The answer is yes.  And if you ask whether a note can increase in grade when being submitted multiple times to the same grading company, the answer is again "yes". 

A sly endorsement for grading companies?!

Ok,I will bite.All my notes are being graded from now on.
Anyone that searches the data here on TPG will be convinced more 'dinero' shall grace the household IF and only IF you TPG the notes.
And now"multiple times to the same grading company,"

Thanks...lmao!


twoinvallarta
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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2011, 09:43:00 am »

"So how many more times does this note have to be submitted before it becomes a
GEM 66  "

Obviously,well worth the effort! Au to Gem66.?
Financial nirvanna.

mmars
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« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2011, 12:57:05 pm »

Don't be silly.  The only way to turn an AU into an Unc-66 is to take it out of the BCS holder and send it to PMG.  Shouldn't take more than one submission too.

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friedsquid
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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2011, 01:52:10 pm »

Don't be silly.  The only way to turn an AU into an Unc-66 is to take it out of the BCS holder and send it to PMG.  Shouldn't take more than one submission too.

But you have to realize that submitting the note once to PMG with the grading fee, shipping, handling, and insurance...it still might be cheaper to send it to BCS 4 more times  :)



Always looking for #1 serial number notes in any denomination/any series
mmars
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« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2011, 07:38:37 pm »

But you have to realize that submitting the note once to PMG with the grading fee, shipping, handling, and insurance...it still might be cheaper to send it to BCS 4 more times  :)

Even more than 4 if you show up in person.  I wonder what Steve Bell would do if you came in to pick up your notes, then asked for a regrade.  Heck, maybe if you pay to have the note graded 9 times, the tenth is free.

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harwil4u2
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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2011, 09:37:44 am »

This happens with coins all the time.
mmars
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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2011, 12:43:07 pm »

This happens with coins all the time.

Coins don't have any unique identifiers (like serial numbers).  The fact that paper money has serial numbers, along with the fact that grading companies keep statistics of different types of notes they grade, make it quite surprising (at least to me) that a note can be submitted more than once and receive different grades each time.

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friedsquid
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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2011, 01:36:48 pm »

Many of the banknote collectors I have spoken to over a period of time once started
as coin collectors and changed over to banknotes because of coin grading issues. Also the fact that MMARS mentioned, a banknote is unique and it is easier to track a note because of a serial number than a coin without one.
As for grading, I can easily see how a note can go down in grade over time when it has been TPG, taken out of a slab, mis handled or whatever, and regraded lower than the original note...as for being regraded and increasing its grade seems less likely...
I would also have a concern where a TPG regrades their own graded note and it is a higher grade..one can see how confidence can be easily lost in that TPG....
The question is ...how many notes do people own that are graded at a lesser grade than they should be....and when they add them all up, I'm sure the amount can be a heck of a lot of $$$$$$$
The simple truth of the matter is that the TPG never loses a dime...grade and regrade just doubles their profits....:(
Where else is money made that easily ?

« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 01:43:17 pm by friedsquid »



Always looking for #1 serial number notes in any denomination/any series
Ottawa
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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2011, 02:37:00 pm »

The assigned grade of a note can certainly change with time because grading is a subjective science/art and grading standards undeniably change with respect to time. Another recent example of an increase in grade involves the rare Dominion of Canada "Payable at Halifax" $2 1870 note that was featured in the latest issue of Canadian Coin News (Volume 48, Number 25, March-April 2011, page 8 ). I have reproduced the article in question below.

The CPMS Note Registry (1st Edition 2009, page 30) indicates that this same note graded as a "Fine" when it was sold at a J&M auction in June 1994 but it was recently graded as a "VF" by BCS (no numerical grade quoted in the article) and as a "VF-20" by PCGS.

{http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6804/24218701.jpg:http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6804/24218701.th.jpg}
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 03:03:00 pm by BWJM »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
mmars
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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2011, 09:57:37 pm »

Grading standards changing over the long term is not really what this thread is about.  The Commerce note in question was graded twice by the same company in the span of a year and was determined to be "original" both times at a different grade each time.  I question whether the note is really as original as the day it left my hands, though.  The current owner seems to think the current grade of AU-55 is conservative even though I know this note had a soft centre fold.  And I hate to say it but BCS doesn't exactly have a great track record of handling the "original" designation.  One note I sent to them was a 1972 $5 note that had been pressed.  I re-activated the three vertical folds that had been pressed out, and the note came back from BCS as "original".  Anyhow, the real point is that one particular grading company has graded the same note twice and given the note different grades, leading me to believe that they don't check their records to see if a note has been assessed previously.  It's very honest of them to assess each note independently regardless of its provenance, but this kind of information could be exploited.  I hope I never come upon any examples of a note that was not "original" on the first assessment and became "original" on the second.  That would make the grading company look REALLY foolish.

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abyss
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« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2011, 07:37:22 am »

I would think that the first thing a TPG would do is verify within its own database
whether a note was previously graded by them or not. It can't be that hard since notes are unique. I Know the PMG has many graders, so if a note is not checked by lets say the same graders as it originally was, the variations in each individuals opinion can easily change since as far as I am concerned, grading is still very subjective and based on interpretation and opinion. On the other hand, at BCS I believe their is only one grader (please correct me if I am wrong), so in this regards it is his subjective decision that has changed...which is not a good thing unless of course someone has a note that gets a higher grade  :)
I wonder if graders suffer the same issues as assembly line workers at major auto companies. We know not to buy a car made on a Monday or a Friday because it is more likely to have issues with it....maybe the same goes for TPG's  :D
"to grade...or not to grade" that will always be the question.....
Ottawa
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« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2011, 08:50:42 pm »

I think it's important to stress that the BCS AU-50 designation immediately became invalid once the note was removed from its holder. As noted in fine print on the back of all BCS holders "If this holder is tampered with or damaged in any way the preceding opinion becomes invalid".

It's not inconceivable, in fact it's quite likely in my opinion, that the person who removed the note from the BCS holder made a few small "improvements" to the note, perhaps by erasing a small superficial blemish, lessening some of the handling marks using finger nail pressure through a sheet of paper, etc., etc. It is therefore not surprising, in my opinion, that a note could indeed "improve" from an AU-50 to an AU-55. It's true that all TPG companies should, and most probably do, maintain a database of notes that they have graded in the past but a responsible company would always regrade a resubmitted note starting from scratch (i.e., as if it were a brand new submission) and not merely reassign the previously assigned grade from their database because that could be particularly problematic if someone had mishandled the note in the intervening period and it had actually decreased in grade. To summarize, it's quite possible that the physical state (or at least the apparent physical state) of the note in question changed (improved in this case) between the time it was removed from the first BCS holder and the time it entered the second BCS holder.



 
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 08:57:54 pm by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
 

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