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Topic: Printing Sequence of Notes  (Read 9554 times)
Rupiah
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« on: September 11, 2013, 10:58:15 pm »

Quote
Care to share that evidence?  Otherwise it sounds like you're just spreading rumours because I have seen absolutely nothing that suggests the printers are printing notes backwards or in some unknown mixed-up chronology.

The above quote is attributed to a comment that was made that ...
there is some evidence emerging that suggests that BoC may not be printing the notes in straight serial number runs i.e. from 0 to 10mil for each prefix followed by the same for the  next prefix.

There are several ways to look at this.

Firstly it is strange that no one has bothered to provide or ask for evidence that the notes are indeed printed in a straight run from beginning to end. I have seen no evidence of that. Perhaps I have missed something but am happy to be enlightened. I am sure most people will consider me crazy to even raise this as a possibility but any good research considers that possibility.

Given the above if there is even a shred of possibility that some notes were not printed in a straight run then it lends itself to the possibility that all notes may not be printed in a straight run.

So let me offer you the possibility that the existence of the "star" in the hockey stick on $5 notes is a result of something going on with the plates. It is not a random printing mishap or variation that happens. Why do I say that - Through my research I can now predict the specific runs within each series (almost all - still waiting to resolve some prefixes)  that are likely to have stars or not have stars. I can now predict this with 85% probability. In any research based on samples that would be considered a good run rate.

I would like to offer to you the possibility that HPA, HPV and HPZ were printed before any of the other prefixes. Until that time there were no issues with the plate and there were no stars in either of those prefixes or if there are stars they are limited to specific runs predicted by the print run data that is available on the wiki. I would like to further suggest to you that HPD and HPH were perhaps printed last. They are the ones with most frequency of stars.

In between there are very interesting things that are happening.

Now people on this forum may not buy this logic. But until anyone proves to me otherwise I hope people do not consider I am spreading rumors. I have given a possible explanation.

Anyone is also free to do research on the web and will find evidence that will suggest that the BoC and also the BEP are moving towards something called SNI. My interpretation of some of that information suggests that SNI allows complete flexibility in terms of control of prefixes and serial number right from the initial printing of the notes to the eventual removal from circulation. Although I do not know how long the BoC has been using SNI it is certainly going to impact notes going forward.

Now I will wait for someone to give conclusive evidence that the notes are indeed printed in a straight run. Hope that is a fair question to ask ;)

Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
mmars
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2013, 05:06:17 pm »

Firstly it is strange that no one has bothered to provide or ask for evidence that the notes are indeed printed in a straight run from beginning to end.

That's because it is the null hypothesis, meaning it is the theory we accept when no other theory can be proven.  That's how the scientific method works.  If we choose to abandon the null hypothesis without having another theory, then we have absolutely nothing, meaning there's no proof that anyone is printing notes at all.

You want proof of sequential printing of serial numbers?  OK.  The one thing I remember off the top of my head is the Journey $50 note with the offset serial numbers.  We had this discussion and you were part of it...
http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/forum/index.php?topic=13552.0
Ink transfer from the younger higher-numbered note gets onto the older lower-numbered note.  It only makes sense if they are printing successive reams higher instead of lower or in some other jumbled order.


I have seen no evidence of that. Perhaps I have missed something but am happy to be enlightened. I am sure most people will consider me crazy to even raise this as a possibility but any good research considers that possibility.

You're not crazy for proposing an alternate hypothesis.  If you dismiss the null hypothesis outright before proving the alternate hypothesis, then you would be acting crazy.  Having enthusiasm for research and new ideas is admirable, but the researcher needs to keep things in perspective. 

So let me offer you the possibility that the existence of the "star" in the hockey stick on $5 notes is a result of something going on with the plates. It is not a random printing mishap or variation that happens.

Interesting theory, but I have looked at more than a few $5 notes and came away with the conclusion that they are purely the result of gradual changes in the printing process.

Why do I say that - Through my research I can now predict the specific runs within each series (almost all - still waiting to resolve some prefixes)  that are likely to have stars or not have stars. I can now predict this with 85% probability. In any research based on samples that would be considered a good run rate.

85% is a good score in high school English class.  In a statistical analysis, a confidence interval of 85% is not that great.  Certainly, if you were doing political polls for Ipsos Reid or another major company, 85% confidence means that even if one party had a 14% lead over another, they would still be statistically tied, meaning there's still a significant possibility that your poll is inaccurate.

I'm glad the data in the SNDB is more than 85% accurate.  :)

I would like to offer to you the possibility that HPA, HPV and HPZ were printed before any of the other prefixes. Until that time there were no issues with the plate and there were no stars in either of those prefixes or if there are stars they are limited to specific runs predicted by the print run data that is available on the wiki. I would like to further suggest to you that HPD and HPH were perhaps printed last. They are the ones with most frequency of stars.

Interesting ideas.  There is certainly no need for the printers to use prefixes in alphabetical order, especially when they know ahead of time how many notes they need to produce.  In other words, if the bank of Canada orders 100 million notes, that's 10 complete prefixes, so they could pick a run of 10 prefixes and print those prefixes in any order.

However, even with a strong demand for circulating tender that makes it feel like production will be endless, production is not a constant process.  Machines start, machines stop.  How often, we don't know.  Even machines that run perfectly need to be stopped for routine maintenance now and then.  Since I have experience as a laboratory technician, I know that machines and scientific instruments work best if they work on a consistent ongoing basis.  In a strange way, it kind of proves Newton's Third Law of motion.  It's easier to keep a machine working than it is to get one working after a long period of inactivity.

Before I get carried off on a tangent, here is something you need to consider about the hockey stick phenomenon.  The designs of the $5 Journey notes are printed BEFORE the serial numbers.  The serial numbers are added to notes in a separate printing process.  Well, that's the null hypothesis for printing stage chronology.  Maybe you would like to propose another theory, that the hockey sticks and serial numbers are printed at the same time.  You are assuming that over the course of printing some 20 prefixes (200 million notes), that the change in hockey stick appearance is a linear process from beginning to end of production.  Here are the problems with that theory:

- It assumes nearly constant production, or, the ability of the printers to keep exactly the same conditions throughout production that is non-constant.
- It assumes that the roughly 4.5 million sheets of paper used to make those 200 million notes were kept in exactly the same order through the two different stages of printing (first, the back design, then, the serial numbers).

We have seen evidence that this incredible order and synchronization does not happen.  What evidence?  Consider the double denomination errors that occurred on $10 notes of prefixes BTT and BTU.  These error notes occur in small clusters scattered throughout a range of about 10 million notes, with no predictable pattern to the occurrences.  If the printers were so fastidious as to keep everything in perfect order, a block of $20 security paper getting mixed into the $10 security paper would have remained one big block after the serial numbers were added.  But we do not see this.  What we do see appears to be quite chaotic.

I have no doubt that there is some pattern to how the stars on the hockey stick emerge.  What we don't know is how often it emerges over the course of printing 4.5 million sheets.  Trying to get the answer from correlating the phenomenon to serial numbers makes no sense to me.  Again, I emphasize that serial numbers were added later.  There are so many variables that are unknown between the two stages of printing that I'm surprised you could even get a predictability rate of 85%.  That probably tells us there is very good synchronization going on at the printing presses.  So the fact that you have engaged in this research is quite worthwhile.  However, it is still critically flawed to suggest a completely revised chronology of prefixes from a printing process that has nothing to do with how serial numbers are applied to notes.

Finally, don't take feedback on your research too personally.  I know emotion can fuel the desire to prove one thing over another, but it may not help one in getting closer to the truth, especially if the truth has been known all along.

    No hay banda  
Rupiah
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 01:16:23 am »

All I was trying to show is that I had a hypothesis. That is a far cry from propagating rumors.

Anyone can rip my research to shreds and that's what peer review is all about.

However suggesting that someone with a plausible hypothesis is propagating rumors IMHO is inappropriate.

Rumor is a strong word and I hope no one takes lightly to it. My post was all about that comment.

In any case I noticed a few things in the response that relate to the research and

Quote
Interesting theory, but I have looked at more than a few $5 notes and came away with the conclusion that they are purely the result of gradual changes in the printing process.

In the spirit of supporting research by another member of the forum it would have been appreciated if this information with the details would have been shared. If anyone wants to disprove the research all it takes is to say I have seen plenty of different conditions so I am not a believer. Such comments do not help anyone. Its neither here nor there. Providing specific information can help either prove or disprove which is the objective of good research. Such after the fact comments don't help either cause.

Please  note that we are not talking about change in intensity of printing or the darkness or lightness of ink. We are talking about a noticeable portion of note that completely misses the ink.

I would love for anyone to produce notes and images that show gradual change resulting in such loss of ink in a few specific and predictable areas.

I will be happy to provide data on at many sequential runs of  notes where this is not the case. I would love for anyone to provide me with at least two sequential runs that they have found that show otherwise. Or even if they are not close together but they come from the same ream and with the same plate number combination.

Even better show me another instance anywhere in journey notes of such a gradual change in the printing process that is being talked about that results in loss of ink. I am new to this business but I am sure there are plenty of people who have seen enough journey notes to produce many examples of such gradual but prominent loss of ink in prominent areas of the notes such as the stick, the face and the jacket of the $5 notes of the HP- prefix.

Furthermore show me evidence that such gradual change happens only in certain prefixes of certain printer and certain ranges within those prefixes but none of the prefixes or ranges of another printer.

Furthermore show me any gradual change that happens that can be predicted with 85% certainty across a range of over 100 million notes accepting the fact that it may not be a good run rate :)

Until someone can come up with this I would think that the kind of loss of ink we are seeing in the stick, the face and the jacket does not happen routinely.

Quote
I have no doubt that there is some pattern to how the stars on the hockey stick emerge.  What we don't know is how often it emerges over the course of printing 4.5 million sheets.  

And I have been saying I have the answer. If someone does not care to listen then it does not mean we don't know. I have offered anyone in this forum access to the data but no one has requested which I take it to mean there is no interest or perhaps no one is ready to believe it. And that's fine.

Let me reiterate again. This post was not so much about the research on the star notes. I was merely trying to suggest like I had said earlier "there is some evidence emerging"

However any and all feedback is appreciated and taken in good spirit.

What would be appreciated if people can give me an image of:

a star note in HPA, HPV and HPZ prefix.

a star note in HAD prefix other than the the range of 4320000-4679999 (1x8000 sheets 45 on)
a star note in HPW prefix other than the range of  2160000-2880000 (2x8000 sheets 45 on)

Now that's what I would call helping a crazy researcher out in doing some meaningless banknote stuff ;)

Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
mmars
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 05:51:48 pm »

All I was trying to show is that I had a hypothesis. That is a far cry from propagating rumors.

Rumours can be either fact or fiction.  In either case, rumours are unproven, and that's what you offered, an unsubstantiated hypothesis.  And then you have the nerve to jump on someone for calling you on what you did?

Anyone can rip my research to shreds and that's what peer review is all about.

Nobody can review your research when you don't offer it.  Do we have to beg you for a manuscript?

However suggesting that someone with a plausible hypothesis is propagating rumors IMHO is inappropriate.
It is entire appropriate given that you have not produced anything to back up your claims.  All you are doing is throwing around ideas to test the level of interest in your work, probably so you can decide if it is worth your time to produce a manuscript.  To me at least, it doesn't even sound like you have confidence in your research, so instead, you're taking your frustration out on me because I dared to use the word "rumour". 

Rumor is a strong word and I hope no one takes lightly to it. My post was all about that comment.

You have no right to dictate to me what words I can use and in what context they must be viewed.  I stand by what I said.

I would love for anyone to produce notes and images that show gradual change resulting in such loss of ink in a few specific and predictable areas.

...


 I would love for anyone to provide me with at least two sequential runs that they have found that show otherwise.

...

Even better show me another instance anywhere in journey notes of such a gradual change...

...

Furthermore show me evidence that...

...

Furthermore show me ...

It sounds like you want someone else to do the work for you.  I don't think you're here to do research, I think you're here to throw ideas around and hope that someone takes up the cause in your place.

Let me reiterate again. This post was not so much about the research on the star notes. I was merely trying to suggest like I had said earlier "there is some evidence emerging"

However any and all feedback is appreciated and taken in good spirit.

Huh.  If your "good spirits" are anything like how you responded to my post above, it's no wonder nobody is giving you any feedback.  I provided very specific information about why your hypothesis is flawed, and you just ignore it like a global warming theorist and resort to flailing about semantics.

Are you here to do something productive or win a popularity contest?  When I did my research on "mini ream" notes, I did it in spite of what others might think, not because of it.

So I'm going to offer one last piece of advice: Poop or get off the pot.

    No hay banda  
Rupiah
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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2013, 09:40:49 pm »

You win man - hands down  :)

One last thing:

Quote
Since I have experience as a laboratory technician, I know that machines and scientific instruments work best if they work on a consistent ongoing basis.  In a strange way, it kind of proves Newton's Third Law of motion.  It's easier to keep a machine working than it is to get one working after a long period of inactivity.

The last time I had looked at Newton's laws of motion - it was the First law about inertia and not the third. :D




Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
BWJM
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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2013, 09:51:31 pm »

And we're done here.  Everyone needs to play nice together, and not much of that has been happening in this thread.

BWJM, F.O.N.A.
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President, IBNS Ontario Chapter.
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Fellow of the Ontario Numismatic Association.
 

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