Author
Topic: Shifted serial numbers?  (Read 6828 times)
PaperorPlastic
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
« on: December 26, 2013, 02:05:29 pm »

  Hi all hope everyone had a merry Christmas yesterday and was able to spend time with family and friends!  :)

  I got these two notes from the atm and I noticed that there is something off with the serial numbers.  It looks to be minor shifts from where it should be.

  The first note it looks like the two sets of numbers don't line up.  The one on the left looks lower than the one on the right.

{http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1443/we3s.jpg:http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1443/we3s.th.jpg}

  The second note the serial numbers are both shifted lower than usual.  They are right on top of the "border" if you will where the pattern changes.  All my other notes I compared it with are higher up.

{http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/6268/fqli.jpg:http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/6268/fqli.th.jpg}

These look like minor errors to me but I'm not entirely sure.  I'd like to know if these things are common or not and whether or not they can be considered errors.

mmars
  • Very Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,352
  • money is gregarious
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2013, 08:38:20 pm »

They are not errors.

    No hay banda  
Dean
  • Very Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
  • GO LEAFS GO!
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2013, 07:13:17 pm »

The AUS note you have has a tiny black square above the 3 on the right hand serial number.  It could be part of a number like 4...

I'd hold onto the notes.  They are minor varieties but still neat to look at if you can spare the 40 bucks...

Dean

Rupiah
  • Very Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2013, 02:06:39 am »

 Hi all hope everyone had a merry Christmas yesterday and was able to spend time with family and friends!  :)

  I got these two notes from the atm and I noticed that there is something off with the serial numbers.  It looks to be minor shifts from where it should be.

  The first note it looks like the two sets of numbers don't line up.  The one on the left looks lower than the one on the right.

{http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1443/we3s.jpg:http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1443/we3s.th.jpg}


My copy of the Charlton Canadian GPM-25th edition lists E18-i as an error under the misplaced serial number category.

The description for the error is listed as:

Number out of register, up, down or sideways.

In printing terminology the serial number on the note shown would be considered out of register with respect to the rest of the printed elements of the note on the back side.

Perhaps the paper money experts who know a lot more about the error listings in the Charlton catalog can help in understanding the meaning of the listed error and show some examples of what it means. Otherwise IMHO the above note falls into that category.

As has often been mentioned before it does not follow that this condition will have any more than face value. But if one misaligned digit (Error E18-vii) is any guide in terms of value then - well I will leave it up to the experts to chip in  :)

Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
mmars
  • Very Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,352
  • money is gregarious
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2013, 04:48:52 am »

Are errors not supposed to be unusual and scarce?

    No hay banda  
friedsquid
  • Very Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,876
  • CPMS 1593
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2013, 08:18:10 am »

Are errors not supposed to be unusual and scarce?

Not when it comes to decisions made by politicians :)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 08:20:17 am by friedsquid »



Always looking for #1 serial number notes in any denomination/any series
PaperorPlastic
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2013, 01:30:02 pm »

Thanks for the replies everyone!  :)

The AUS note you have has a tiny black square above the 3 on the right hand serial number.  It could be part of a number like 4...
I'd hold onto the notes.  They are minor varieties but still neat to look at if you can spare the 40 bucks...
Dean

That's quite an eye you've got there I didn't even notice that square.  That could be possible, it makes that note even more intriguing to me.  :-\  They are cool varieties indeed I haven't come across these before and unless I really really need to spend them I will be keeping them.

My copy of the Charlton Canadian GPM-25th edition lists E18-i as an error under the misplaced serial number category.

The description for the error is listed as:

Number out of register, up, down or sideways.

In printing terminology the serial number on the note shown would be considered out of register with respect to the rest of the printed elements of the note on the back side.

Perhaps the paper money experts who know a lot more about the error listings in the Charlton catalog can help in understanding the meaning of the listed error and show some examples of what it means. Otherwise IMHO the above note falls into that category.

As has often been mentioned before it does not follow that this condition will have any more than face value. But if one misaligned digit (Error E18-vii) is any guide in terms of value then - well I will leave it up to the experts to chip in  :)

I think it's tough to say because what's on these notes isn't as significant as other more conspicuous and crazier looking errors (like upside down numbers).  But technically it could fall in the category which is why I put them aside. Even if they aren't, like Dean said they are nifty to look at and I will be keeping them for my personal collection.   :)

Are errors not supposed to be unusual and scarce?

You could say the position of these numbers is unusual when you compare them to ordinary 20s in your wallet like I did.   Scarce, well I'm not really sure honestly but probably not.  :P

Not when it comes to decisions made by politicians :)

Lol, don't get me started on the stuff in Montreal... ::)

Rupiah
  • Very Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2013, 10:02:49 pm »



I think it's tough to say because what's on these notes isn't as significant as other more conspicuous and crazier looking errors (like upside down numbers). 


There is a good reason why BCS does not grade for error notes. In reality the beauty of the errors is in the eyes of the beholder. I would say the slanted numbers are more intriguing and less common than the single digit misalignment. Yet the single digit misalignment commands a premium on auction websites. Some well known dealers are selling them as such.

I may not be a real prolific banknote collector but I do read and see a lot and when I find that one of the most significant person who made error notes very public show an example similar to yours as an error on their website I think it means something. And this alongside the eye popping errors that everyone goes crazy over.

Take a look:

http://rarenotes.net/pages/serpgs/bek3254173.html




Wonder what paper money would say if it could talk?
PaperorPlastic
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2013, 11:23:32 pm »

There is a good reason why BCS does not grade for error notes. In reality the beauty of the errors is in the eyes of the beholder. I would say the slanted numbers are more intriguing and less common than the single digit misalignment. Yet the single digit misalignment commands a premium on auction websites. Some well known dealers are selling them as such.

I may not be a real prolific banknote collector but I do read and see a lot and when I find that one of the most significant person who made error notes very public show an example similar to yours as an error on their website I think it means something. And this alongside the eye popping errors that everyone goes crazy over.

Take a look:

http://rarenotes.net/pages/serpgs/bek3254173.html

That's incredible! Who would have thought?

This is why I like this forum, there are so many knowledgeable and helpful fellow collectors on here.   :)

That does say a lot for sure Rupiah.  Thank you very much for finding that.  I didn't even know about that website but it sure has some neat stuff on it about errors for sure and a lot of visuals to help.

mmars
  • Very Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,352
  • money is gregarious
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2013, 02:20:45 am »

OK, time for me to be Mr. Unpopular and motivate some people to complain to the site administrator for being too negative.

The numbering machine used to print serial numbers on notes is quite a dynamic instrument.  It has 90 groups of reels so that each note on a 45-note sheet gets two numbers.  Those reels can be adjusted to print numbers anywhere you want them, so they can be moved up, down, and side-to-side.  I don't know how easy it is to move all those "heads" of reels and make adjustments, and how well they stay in place during a print run.  They probably have to be recalibrated now and then.  When the two serial numbers used to print one note are not in perfect vertical alignment, it could be due to one head moving during a print run, or they might have been set that way by mistake.  Machine operators are not perfect.

I have found quite a few notes with slight vertical offsets between the two serial numbers.  I didn't save any because these offsets did not put one of the serial numbers outside of the designated space where they are found.  Sheets of paper fed into the machine don't always line up perfectly either, so the result is the serial numbers can be found with quite a variability in placement within their designated area.  Also, I have noticed that the horizontal distance between the two serial numbers can vary quite a bit from note to note.  I observed this years ago with the Journey notes; I have not checked if this is still happening on polymer notes.  Again, it could be operator error or due to slight movements of the printing heads laterally.  Changes in lateral spacing don't have the same visual impact as changes in vertical spacing since serial numbers are oblong horizontally.

When single digit offsets occur, it is the result of one reel on a printing head being out of alignment.  When I hear people say that this is not an error, I think they are responding partly to the way these notes are being sold on auction sites.  I don't dispute that these single digit shifts are common on current polymer notes, and Internet auction sites are full of common notes.  If someone had been listing numerous notes with shifted serial numbers on eBay, would popular opinion of these notes also turn sour?  Would it depend on who was selling them and what kind of sales pitch they were making?

Obviously, visual impact correlates well with the value of error notes.  For those notes with lesser visual impact, personal opinion plays a bigger role in determining value, and personal opinion is quite frivolous at best.  Look at coins that have dot errors.  Lots of coins have dots resulting from die chips and other wear.  But the right dot on the right coin occasionally creates very popular varieties, and collectors will sometimes pay ridiculous prices to get one.

    No hay banda  
PaperorPlastic
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2013, 01:56:27 pm »

OK, time for me to be Mr. Unpopular and motivate some people to complain to the site administrator for being too negative.

The numbering machine used to print serial numbers on notes is quite a dynamic instrument.  It has 90 groups of reels so that each note on a 45-note sheet gets two numbers.  Those reels can be adjusted to print numbers anywhere you want them, so they can be moved up, down, and side-to-side.  I don't know how easy it is to move all those "heads" of reels and make adjustments, and how well they stay in place during a print run.  They probably have to be recalibrated now and then.  When the two serial numbers used to print one note are not in perfect vertical alignment, it could be due to one head moving during a print run, or they might have been set that way by mistake.  Machine operators are not perfect.

I have found quite a few notes with slight vertical offsets between the two serial numbers.  I didn't save any because these offsets did not put one of the serial numbers outside of the designated space where they are found.  Sheets of paper fed into the machine don't always line up perfectly either, so the result is the serial numbers can be found with quite a variability in placement within their designated area.  Also, I have noticed that the horizontal distance between the two serial numbers can vary quite a bit from note to note.  I observed this years ago with the Journey notes; I have not checked if this is still happening on polymer notes.  Again, it could be operator error or due to slight movements of the printing heads laterally.  Changes in lateral spacing don't have the same visual impact as changes in vertical spacing since serial numbers are oblong horizontally.

When single digit offsets occur, it is the result of one reel on a printing head being out of alignment.  When I hear people say that this is not an error, I think they are responding partly to the way these notes are being sold on auction sites.  I don't dispute that these single digit shifts are common on current polymer notes, and Internet auction sites are full of common notes.  If someone had been listing numerous notes with shifted serial numbers on eBay, would popular opinion of these notes also turn sour?  Would it depend on who was selling them and what kind of sales pitch they were making?

Obviously, visual impact correlates well with the value of error notes.  For those notes with lesser visual impact, personal opinion plays a bigger role in determining value, and personal opinion is quite frivolous at best.  Look at coins that have dot errors.  Lots of coins have dots resulting from die chips and other wear.  But the right dot on the right coin occasionally creates very popular varieties, and collectors will sometimes pay ridiculous prices to get one.

  No doubt that you make very valid points mmars.  It is true that these are probably just caused by movement of the reels which could happen pretty often.  Like you said with dots on coins it could also be like machine doubling on coins.

  I knew right away there probably wouldn't be any premiums or excitement over these notes, I just wanted an opinion on what they were as its the first of these that I've come across (I haven't been collecting for very long maybe a few months now).  They intrigued me and its also the reason why they are going in my personal collection.  It's like you said some people see some things as errors and others not.  To me they look like some cool varieties, while the person who made the site that Rupiah provided a link to has a note that is considered an error to them and looks similar to my note, while you stated before that you do not consider them to be errors.  Everyone has their own opinion.

  And I don't see you as Mr. Unpopular I appreciate you taking the time to give me your insight.  The more info and opinions I receive the better!   :)

 

Login with username, password and session length